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What's the capital missing?
- Thread starter lovejamminoldies
- Start date
C
columbus radio fan
Guest
I'm sorry but I think Columbus is not missing anything format wise. What we have in Columbus works for each of the owners, if it wasn't they would change to something else. You can't compare Columbus to Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Baltimore, or any other city. Each market is unique and those stations have adjusted for each market. If Columbus so desperately needed another CHR, someone would have done it by now. If Columbus so desperately needed an 80's station, 107.9 would not have dropped it for oldies. When I see a posting like this I ignore it because what's in Columbus at this moment is working for Columbus. If you want a format so bad...try to find an open frequency in this market (there isn't BTW...i've looked), build a station, and do it!
whoever said that power 107 needs to de thug the dj's is nuts. 107.5 is one of the most whitebread hip hop stations i've ever heard other than KUBE in seattle. de thug the dj's maybe. de thug the music no.
columbus radio fan said:
Well since there isn't a decent open frequency, and let's say I'm seeking Polka Music (or what ever music format you want), I guess, we'll have to go to an internet radio station to get it. Strangely enough, I just did a search for polka music online, and with in 3 seconds I found several. Can't do that on the local radio dial, but I did find 3 country stations in the Columbus area on the radio dial. Guess those station owners feel that they do country better than the others.
columbus radio fan said:
That logic doesn't cut it, for several reasons.
First, there's the frequent scenario (in radio and other industries) where everyone's doing just fine until someone comes along, provides something that the "everything's fine" or "everything's already covered" folks said wasn't needed or "would never work here," and wham, the naysayers are proven completely wrong. While I'm a firm believer in marketing research (it's puts food on my table), business case history is rife with examples of products and services that conventional knowledge (or research misinterpretation) said wasn't needed. But someone introduced the product anyway, with the right design and marketing plan, and good followthrough, and it became a resounding success. Read: It filled a need that wasn't being optimally filled in the existing product (station) landscape. The releveant question, is, "what's BEST," not just "what's OK"?
In Columbus radio history, a classic example is Top 40 WCOL-AM in the mid-seventies. Despite decent showings by early Top 40 WNCI, COL-AM continued to pull ungodly market-topping shares and its PD professed invincibility. Then in 1975 WNCI brought in a consultant from Bartell Media and overhauled their approach so dramatically that it was basically a new format. Result: "Invincible" COL-AM went down the tubes in record time, years before other AM Top 40's succumbed to FM competition.
Another local example: In the 90's everyone was saying "Hot AC would never work here" because powerhouse NCI leaned adult (and also because NCI had earlier attempted its own foray into what they *called* Hot AC but was actually softish mainstream). Finally, someone -- 97.1 -- tried anyway, with a *true* Hot AC, and had top-tier ratings for a few years until their programming started getting sloppy and the Hot AC format in general entered a tough period.
Notice something about these two examples? Both of the newcomers who defied the "don't need/won't work" mantra had great signals. That's the other reason I strongly disagree with your assessment that "Columbus is not missing anything format wise." What's more relevant is what Columbus is missing on *viable signals*, and in that case the answer is plenty. That's why the listeners-be-damned good-signal format duplication is so frustrating (e.g., CC abhorrently putting softish AC on prized new big-signal LZT when Sunny already had that covered), and why I couldn't believe what I was reading when someone in this thread suggested a "soft, soft" AC. Another signal-realted angle: Adult Hits "failed" here, so people assume it doesn't work in Columus, or that there was no real hole for it. Well, the problem was the signal, plain and simple (although many who post here also say Ted was poorly programmed). As I predicted from the start, ratings-wise Talk-FM is doing no better for WTDA than Ted was.
M
MichaelMcCoy
Guest
You know, one of the interesting thing you learn from working in multiple markets is how bad the radio actually is in that market - at least according to the people who would rather bitch than make a difference. One of the most impactful things Tom Thon told me was that change is easier to orchestrate from the inside. My advice - get inside and work for the change you think radio needs... and if it happens to be another CHR, bring it on.
V: If you only found 3 country stations on your dial, you can't get one of them! (And yes, we all think we do it better than the other guy.)
Roo: Pretty long post for one success story (WNCI) as WBNS-FM didn't go HAC until summer 2001 and changed slogan and direction by August 2005. And yes, we know you don't like WLZT. We GET it. It's not targeting you. Some people LIKE soft AC. Doesn't make them bad people.
Best,
JbC
Roo: Pretty long post for one success story (WNCI) as WBNS-FM didn't go HAC until summer 2001 and changed slogan and direction by August 2005. And yes, we know you don't like WLZT. We GET it. It's not targeting you. Some people LIKE soft AC. Doesn't make them bad people.
Best,
JbC
Johnboy Crenshaw said:
No, you DON'T get it. For one thing, it looks like you focused too much on the "for instances" instead of trying to digest the meat of my post. (And since when is four sentences about NCI's mid-seventies thrashing of COL -- three lines on my monitor -- a "long post for one success story?")
And re LZT, you're either missing the point or going for the cheap 'n easy avoid-the-real-issue response (in which case you might want to consider politics if you ever leave radio). Sure, other people like Soft AC, but they've already got a big signal serving them. Meanwhile this big-signal-challenged market continues to lack formats that could very well work here. LZT goes for the cheap market-be-damned "attack Sunny" approach instead of filling a void to serve the market and make some bucks at the same time. I'll repeat to make sure you get it this time: there are plenty of approaches that have done very well in similar markets but have never even been tried on a good signal here. LZT's higher potential as anything more than "attack dog" is obviously being wasted, especially when it's bested by class A The Brew. You know that. It's sad.
A
AugC
Guest
Well New Rew -- Looks like you'll have 3 new-ish to columbus-ish signals to work with here in the next year for your fantasy format league
WHIZ , 101.7, and 104.3 all making their way to(or closer to) the C-bus radio landscape should create a habitat for *change*... also, with the impending sale of Radio1, the next owner might change a format(s)....who knows...but change IS on the way.
If only we could get 107.9 bumped up to a class B!
WHIZ , 101.7, and 104.3 all making their way to(or closer to) the C-bus radio landscape should create a habitat for *change*... also, with the impending sale of Radio1, the next owner might change a format(s)....who knows...but change IS on the way.
If only we could get 107.9 bumped up to a class B!
I agree with Nu on the 93.3 point. Sunny 95 was already doing well and the only way any competitor would be able to top them would be to turn off their transmitter. I know money is the motivator and I'm sure there is plenty to go around with the Soft AC format, but if you're going to mimic an existing format, why not go after a struggling 97.1. After all, 93.3 was an arguably better version of the format as Mix during the 94.3/93.3 swap and later move to Williamsport. It wasn't until they flipped on the transmitter in Obetz that we saw the Lite.
That also brings up an interesting point about the name itself. It didn't take long for that lame moniker to be dropped. I guess I too don't understand why they would try to go after the established and successful station, other than possible ego and bragging rights. I'm just surprised 106.7 didn't come on the air as Smooth Jazz.
That also brings up an interesting point about the name itself. It didn't take long for that lame moniker to be dropped. I guess I too don't understand why they would try to go after the established and successful station, other than possible ego and bragging rights. I'm just surprised 106.7 didn't come on the air as Smooth Jazz.
A
adamcarrington
Guest
AugC said:
Details?
AugC said:Well New Rew -- Looks like you'll have 3 new-ish to columbus-ish signals to work with here in the next year for your fantasy format league
WHIZ , 101.7, and 104.3 all making their way to(or closer to) the C-bus radio landscape should create a habitat for *change*... also, with the impending sale of Radio1, the next owner might change a format(s)....who knows...but change IS on the way.
If only we could get 107.9 bumped up to a class B!
Yeah, that *is* good news about the three upcoming move-ins (although I'm not going to cavalierly dismiss the arguments against loss of small-town service with a smug statement like, "We get it! You want the stations to stay there, and I want them to come here").
But even looking at coverage data it's hard to tell how viable the relocated signals will be. No doubt superior to some existing move-ins, though.
As someone pointed out elsewhere, WNKO's Rock-leaning Classic Hits format is already beating several "Columbus" stations 12+ despite the fact that it currently reaches only a fraction of the metro's population (virtually no presence in Franklin county). It's telling that NKO can currently have nearly 1/2 of WLZT's 12+ share despite population coverage that is nowhere near 1/2 of LZT's.
I agree with you completely re 107.9. But it's not gonna happen, of course.
A
AugC
Guest
Where did you go to college Noo? Ever work in Radio?
AugC said:
AugC, I have a BA from "that school up North" and an MBA from the University of Chicago.
Haven't worked in radio per se, but worked with Arbitron on a PPM-related project for two years (mostly non-radio related, except for a little network radio).
Not sure why you ask, but if you want to discuss any futher please PM me.
K
kentuckymedia
Guest
I think a CHR that "got it right". WNCI is a great station, dont get me wrong. It has a great team in place and a top of the line programming staff. However, if Saga decided to launch a new CHR and slap the "Hot" logo on it, I think it might just work.
Wilks owns CHR stations, but they wont launch one in Columbus. Its too risky and costs too much money.
NABCO has a niche, and it likes where it is...so it wont change anything.
Clear Channel obviously wouldnt create competition for itself and Radio Ohio is doin its "thang"
Radio One might try it, they are having a good time in Indy. However they dont have long term plans in CBUS.
As for the move-ins: 101.7 is most likely for sale. The owner realizes the potential to make a couple cool million for this little "stick" that could. 104.3 is already Saga Jazz bound into the west hip of the city. 102.5 is the big question, and who will buy it?
102.5 obviously wont be owned by WHIZ anymore and the calls will need to go back home. So here is something to think about, 101.7 and 104.9 will be closely related tower sites (could this be the ultimate deal?). CVCO buys 101.7 after its moved in and puts a new station on the air to compliment WRFD and WCVO. Wilks buys Classic Hits WODB from Saga (now they have a 107.9). Saga buys the new "move in" from Zanesville.
CVCO launches some form of Christian Format on 101.7
Wilks doubles their country audience for Wink by flipping 107.9 to simulcast on both ends of the city.
Saga gets this newly minted 102.5 frequency where they can launch anything they want, including CHR?
Wilks owns CHR stations, but they wont launch one in Columbus. Its too risky and costs too much money.
NABCO has a niche, and it likes where it is...so it wont change anything.
Clear Channel obviously wouldnt create competition for itself and Radio Ohio is doin its "thang"
Radio One might try it, they are having a good time in Indy. However they dont have long term plans in CBUS.
As for the move-ins: 101.7 is most likely for sale. The owner realizes the potential to make a couple cool million for this little "stick" that could. 104.3 is already Saga Jazz bound into the west hip of the city. 102.5 is the big question, and who will buy it?
102.5 obviously wont be owned by WHIZ anymore and the calls will need to go back home. So here is something to think about, 101.7 and 104.9 will be closely related tower sites (could this be the ultimate deal?). CVCO buys 101.7 after its moved in and puts a new station on the air to compliment WRFD and WCVO. Wilks buys Classic Hits WODB from Saga (now they have a 107.9). Saga buys the new "move in" from Zanesville.
CVCO launches some form of Christian Format on 101.7
Wilks doubles their country audience for Wink by flipping 107.9 to simulcast on both ends of the city.
Saga gets this newly minted 102.5 frequency where they can launch anything they want, including CHR?
kentuckymedia said:
FWIW, that strategy was a big bust for Jacor in the mid-nineties when they tried to boost WHOK's presence to the North by simulcasting on 105.7 (then licensed to Marysville). As I recall, this was after they tried an equally-failed Hot Country approach on 105.7. Maybe a simulcast would prove more beneficial for a station as pipsqueaky as Wink, but I doubt it.
Overall, interesting speculation in your post.
Nu Roo:
You shouldn't use AQH share when making a case for listeners vs. coverage, because it factors in how long they listen (TSL). Better to use a cume number. In AQH share, all the shares add up to 100, because it factors out people not listening, another reason it is not a great indicator. Or, use the Cume Rating. Expresses the cume as a percentage of the population. Even using the 12+ number, which for the purpose of this demonstration might be one of the only times I find a 12+ number useful, WNKO has a little over 25,000 listeners per week. WLZT has just under 120,000. NKO cume rating is just under a 2, LZT's is a little over an 8, so NKO has an audience about 25% as large as LZT's. Make sense?
I should also note the cume vs. AQH share on WVKO vs WYTS. One has twice as many "pairs of ears" as the other, and the other has the longest time spent listening of any station in the market. You usually see the highest TSL go to the most specialized format, foreign language or religion or big band, for example.
Best,
JbC
edit to "generalize" numbers.
You shouldn't use AQH share when making a case for listeners vs. coverage, because it factors in how long they listen (TSL). Better to use a cume number. In AQH share, all the shares add up to 100, because it factors out people not listening, another reason it is not a great indicator. Or, use the Cume Rating. Expresses the cume as a percentage of the population. Even using the 12+ number, which for the purpose of this demonstration might be one of the only times I find a 12+ number useful, WNKO has a little over 25,000 listeners per week. WLZT has just under 120,000. NKO cume rating is just under a 2, LZT's is a little over an 8, so NKO has an audience about 25% as large as LZT's. Make sense?
I should also note the cume vs. AQH share on WVKO vs WYTS. One has twice as many "pairs of ears" as the other, and the other has the longest time spent listening of any station in the market. You usually see the highest TSL go to the most specialized format, foreign language or religion or big band, for example.
Best,
JbC
edit to "generalize" numbers.
JbC -
Thanks for the explanation, but your approach seems to dismiss the all-important normalizing factor of potential market coverage (i.e., what % of the market can even pick up each station at all).
Also, I see no reason to filter out TSL or dismiss share in an assessment of how well each station is doing relative to its coverage. TSL is a key determinant of gross quarter-hours, and in turn share, for any given geography. If a station's TSL goes up then, all else remaining equal, its share will also go up (though by a somewhat lower percentage since you are now sharing to a higher number of total-market quarter-hours).
In consumer product marketing terms (mixing in radio analogies):
--The signal's market coverage would be Distribution aka Availability (what % of the market's grocery stores carry the product at all)
--Cume would be Reach aka Penetration (what % of people buy the product at least once during the analysis period -- and note that I'm expressing as a % of the total population, as you suggested with Cume rating)
--TSL would be the (very important) measure of Buying Rate, i.e. how much of the product does each reached person buy during the period. (Buying Rate can further be broken down into Purchase Frequency [how often they buy] times Purchase Size [what quantity do they buy on each buying occasion]). This has clear parallels to radio.
So, if product/station A has only 25% as much Distribution (=signal coverage) as product/station B, but still manages to reach 50% of the B's total sales volume (=50% of B's AQH), then A clearly has high potential to outperform B if it can achieve greater Distribution (get the product into more stores, get a better signal). Both Buying Rate (TSL) and the ratio of Reach to Distribution (i.e., efficiency at capturing Available Cume) could be important contributors to this potential.
Thanks for the explanation, but your approach seems to dismiss the all-important normalizing factor of potential market coverage (i.e., what % of the market can even pick up each station at all).
Also, I see no reason to filter out TSL or dismiss share in an assessment of how well each station is doing relative to its coverage. TSL is a key determinant of gross quarter-hours, and in turn share, for any given geography. If a station's TSL goes up then, all else remaining equal, its share will also go up (though by a somewhat lower percentage since you are now sharing to a higher number of total-market quarter-hours).
In consumer product marketing terms (mixing in radio analogies):
--The signal's market coverage would be Distribution aka Availability (what % of the market's grocery stores carry the product at all)
--Cume would be Reach aka Penetration (what % of people buy the product at least once during the analysis period -- and note that I'm expressing as a % of the total population, as you suggested with Cume rating)
--TSL would be the (very important) measure of Buying Rate, i.e. how much of the product does each reached person buy during the period. (Buying Rate can further be broken down into Purchase Frequency [how often they buy] times Purchase Size [what quantity do they buy on each buying occasion]). This has clear parallels to radio.
So, if product/station A has only 25% as much Distribution (=signal coverage) as product/station B, but still manages to reach 50% of the B's total sales volume (=50% of B's AQH), then A clearly has high potential to outperform B if it can achieve greater Distribution (get the product into more stores, get a better signal). Both Buying Rate (TSL) and the ratio of Reach to Distribution (i.e., efficiency at capturing Available Cume) could be important contributors to this potential.
I'm with JbC on that one. Cume will give you a more accurate stab at it in this case. "This case" being that you are comparing apples to oranges (Specialized format, huge TSL). Now if we're comparing 2 stations with the same format I may look at the data both ways. Which way does it benefit my outfit the greatest? I'll use that data.
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