When is CBS going to pull the plug on Fresh

[Brooklyndon]

The brand is a dog. No share, no growth.

It's a waste of resources.

Classic (90's) hip hop would be a great way to muscle Emmis out of the urban market even further. Broad appeal to 20 and 30 somethings in the City and the borough. Cross sales potential with Now, possible WFAN. This format is a winner that will only hurt the other players in the market.

 

[d21ofnj]

The brand is a dog. No share, no growth.

It's a waste of resources.

Classic (90's) hip hop would be a great way to muscle Emmis out of the urban market even further. Broad appeal to 20 and 30 somethings in the City and the borough. Cross sales potential with Now, possible WFAN. This format is a winner that will only hurt the other players in the market.

Those guys will tell you to get an HD radio and listen to 97.1 HD-2. Sad, but true.

 

[neo11]

Fresh is underperforming, but it's far from a failure. What CBS Radio needs to look at is why, despite a pretty high cume, their TSL is much shorter. That's unacceptable for a station that should be competing for office/background listening.

They should consider giving their on-air personalities slightly more leeway to talk, rather than just saying their first name and some scripted-sounding pop culture comment between songs. They could also stand to dump the sweepers which sound like they are best suited for feminine hygiene commercials (as the Dentist would describe it...accurately in this case). Yes, we know they are targeting women, but there's a fine line between targeting women and actively turning away men, and Fresh has crossed that line.

Broadening up the playlist a bit would be nice too...seems to be working for Lite (and CBS-FM)! The cume is there. They need to keep those listeners there longer.

 

[radiojomo]

Fresh isn't doing too bad actually...AC/Hot AC seems to be a trending format in PPMs. CBS probably has Fresh as a part of the cluster to shred off some profits from Lite FM and WPLJ...

 

[stationless listener]

Maybe he read "Fresh" and thought it was a classic hip hop station?

Anyway, I haven't had the chance to listen to that station in a while but I would think that having a female-friendly radio station would be viable in a city like New York. However, I went to the Fresh website and checked the Recently Played page. Whoa! That station just oozes estrogen.

Maybe the station is getting its target audience but the rest are turned off and go on to sample Lite FM, instead?

 

[DesiArnez6]

Fresh is underperforming, but it's far from a failure. What CBS Radio needs to look at is why, despite a pretty high cume, their TSL is much shorter. That's unacceptable for a station that should be competing for office/background listening.

They should consider giving their on-air personalities slightly more leeway to talk, rather than just saying their first name and some scripted-sounding pop culture comment between songs. They could also stand to dump the sweepers which sound like they are best suited for feminine hygiene commercials (as the Dentist would describe it...accurately in this case). Yes, we know they are targeting women, but there's a fine line between targeting women and actively turning away men, and Fresh has crossed that line.

Broadening up the playlist a bit would be nice too...seems to be working for Lite (and CBS-FM)! The cume is there. They need to keep those listeners there longer.

Neo, finally someone else who says what ive been thinking about the Fresh "sweepers" th same exact thought came to my mind, " feminine hygiene commercials" Those sweepers make me uncomfortable, and even though I generally like the music and love the 90's special show, that woman they use, and her voice saying the station 102.7, i totally believe they crossed the line by scaring a few men away, I mean your in the car with the guys, music up, and that voice comes on? Someones reaching for the dial.


Aside:****If anyone knows, How are they comparing ratings and cume to "Classic Dance Mix 102.7"?

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

Wouldn't that be two frequencies on which CBS has high cume and runnerup ratings?

It's a glass half-empty/glass half-full puzzle. It ain't my money (and never will be) but if it both stations were mine, I'd consider those high cumes as a sign of weakness on the part of WPLJ, WLTW and WHTZ which fell into my lap. Rather than flip one, I'd look at every daypart of the week where this displeasure with the competition was most vivid, and sieze every tweak I could use at both 92.3 and 102.7 during those times.

Weekends, overnights, PM drive, 7-Mid, 9-to-5 : There has to be enough data by now via the PPM system to analyze and formulate a strategy to draw out that TSL farther when your competition is weakest. When is the cume highest, and so forth. To me, it seems that the signs are there to advance, not to retreat and start all over with yet another completely new image makeover on two somewhat previously jinxed frequencies.

There's definitely elbow room there. The cumes say so.

Best of all, no tweaking of these younger formats is apt to hurt the main FM (WCBS-FM) in the clique.

 

[disney fanatic]

I don't listen to this station so much, because it is an okay station. If you look at the PPM's, it was doing fine, but it's not going anywhere, but it has jocks there. If you look in Chicago, the Chicago's version of "Fresh" at 105.9 was doing horribly, because it's still an automated AC format compared to New York's version than the one in Chicago. What is "Fresh" doing in DC? No comment.

 

[fatlady]

Fresh is doing relitively well in DC. Took out the heritage HOT AC and making a BIG dent in the AC station.

 

[EasyBakeOven]

Don't forget, the 12+ number don't tell the whole story. When you break it down to their target demos, there's been some steady growth in the 25-54 numbers over the past several weeks. I'd say the station is doing OK by being consistent. Also, now that CBS officially licensing the brand for all stations using the name (including non CBS outlets), they will probably invest more into their own "Fresh" outlets in the future.

 

[Element9]

The station is doing exactly what it's designed to do by hitting the target demo and siphoning off some listeners from competitors with similar target demo listeners. It's all about Women 25-49 / 25-54. By the same token, Fresh is helping its clustermates achieve their goals: Addition by subtraction. Guys don't "get" the station, because the station isn't designed for them. That's the way it's supposed to be. Fairly simple when you break it down.

 

[neo11]

The station is doing exactly what it's designed to do by hitting the target demo and siphoning off some listeners from competitors with similar target demo listeners. It's all about Women 25-49 / 25-54. By the same token, Fresh is helping its clustermates achieve their goals: Addition by subtraction. Guys don't "get" the station, because the station isn't designed for them. That's the way it's supposed to be. Fairly simple when you break it down.

Guys may not "get" the station's music, but I think most people here "get" the station's numbers and the fact that they obviously have a low TSL for what should be an office/background listening station. As pointed out, the cume is there, but those listeners are not sticking around long enough. In the meantime, Lite FM and CBS-FM are getting record numbers while PLJ has also seen a nice improvement with the PPM.

 

[Element9]

It's been my experience and observation that when cume is above average and TSL is below average (as determined by a simple comparitive ratio), an examination of the basics, such as the music rotations and other formatic elements, is in order. Seems there's a good supply of the right customers coming through the doors of the "Fresh store," they're simply not spending enough time walking around the store and "buying" things. A lot of radio stations would love to have this type of problem. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[neo11]

It's been my experience and observation that when cume is above average and TSL is below average (as determined by a simple comparitive ratio), an examination of the basics, such as the music rotations and other formatic elements, is in order. Seems there's a good supply of the right customers coming through the doors of the "Fresh store," they're simply not spending enough time walking around the store and "buying" things. A lot of radio stations would love to have this type of problem. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

If you've been reading my posts, you will see that's exactly the point I've been making. Fresh has a good thing going with its cume, which is usually top 5 in the market. Something is wrong with the programming that is resulting in those listeners not staying tuned long enough to a station that should be attracting a high TSL. Thus, it wouldn't make sense for CBS Radio to give up on Fresh, but rather, they should take a very careful look at their programming to determine what is driving away listeners after a relatively short time tuned in.

Besides, Fresh isn't even the worst performer for CBS radio...the jury is still out on how 92.3 Now will end up doing, though it is showing signs of life and some growth.

 

[Brooklyndon]

Common rationalizations for tetaining the format:
1. "The cume is good..."
2. "We've had growth in the womens demo in the last few weeks..."
3. "We've started licensing the format..."

All rationalizations, and why do people rationalize? Because they have made bad decisions. Here is how I process the statement above:
1. 102.7 is good real estate right now, but may not continue to be.
2. Two years later... I read the whole target demo success as "we can't sell our spots full price."
3. What's the incremental revenue v opportunity cost?

Overall, it seems clear that CBS radio's philosophy is to be a market follower. The only problem is that, in a mature marketplace, a follower strategy creates brands that are dogs: no share, no growth.

 

[neo11]

Common rationalizations for tetaining the format:
1. "The cume is good..."
2. "We've had growth in the womens demo in the last few weeks..."
3. "We've started licensing the format..."

All rationalizations, and why do people rationalize? Because they have made bad decisions. Here is how I process the statement above:
1. 102.7 is good real estate right now, but may not continue to be.
2. Two years later... I read the whole target demo success as "we can't sell our spots full price."
3. What's the incremental revenue v opportunity cost?

Overall, it seems clear that CBS radio's philosophy is to be a market follower. The only problem is that, in a mature marketplace, a follower strategy creates brands that are dogs: no share, no growth.

I do agree that CBS Radio, at least with its FM properties in NYC, seems content with being a market follower. But again, my point is that Fresh could very well be a much more successful station in its own right. You're dismissing these points as mere rationalizations over bad decisions (while not offering a solution of your own), when the reality is that Fresh is top five in cume. Smart programming moves can retain the existing audience longer, leading to an increased share.

 

[Brooklyndon]

(while not offering a solution of your own

I direct your attention to the post originating this thread.

 

[neo11]

(while not offering a solution of your own

I direct your attention to the post originating this thread.

I'm aware of your original post in this thread (and your condescending attitude in your posts). You haven't told us why you think that format would be more successful than Fresh. Putting more pressure on Emmis? Isn't Now supposed to be doing that? Cross-branding with Now I can see, but WFAN? That's a bit of a stretch. And isn't your idea basically doing the same thing that you're accusing CBS Radio of doing, namely, trying to be a market follower in its own right, by basically putting on an updated version of an urban AC? One could even compare such a format to a slightly updated Jammin' format, which didn't see runaway success in NY, or the hip-hop counterpart of Mix 102.7, which barely made it into the 2's, 12+, in another example of market following. Explain how a classic (90s) hip hop station would be unlike all of these examples and more successful for CBS Radio than Fresh has been...and not just in terms of ratings, but in terms of revenue. Merely stating that the format has a broad appeal with 20-30somethings, without any further evidence or explanation, isn't enough.

 

[Brooklyndon]

I'm aware of your original post in this thread (and your condescending attitude in your posts). You haven't told us why you think that format would be more successful than Fresh. Putting more pressure on Emmis? Isn't Now supposed to be doing that? Cross-branding with Now I can see, but WFAN? That's a bit of a stretch.

Classic Hip-Hop will appeal to the 18-34 demo for whites and latinos, possible 18-45 for african-americans. The FAN sells to those demos.

And isn't your idea basically doing the same thing that you're accusing CBS Radio of doing, namely, trying to be a market follower in its own right, by basically putting on an updated version of an urban AC?

That's a really interesting question. In my mind, I perceived classic hip-hop as more of an updated version of classic rock. My logic is that whereas urban AC played music that never had broad appeal to a majority of the New York listeners, classic rock plays music that, at one time, had broad appeal to the majority of New York listeners. Now, without digressing into a conversation about the fluidity of New York development and demographics, the key lesson to draw is that any “classic” format’s appeal is directly proportional to the breadth of listeners the format had during its first run.

One could even compare such a format to a slightly updated Jammin' format, which didn't see runaway success in NY, or the hip-hop counterpart of Mix 102.7, which barely made it into the 2's, 12+, in another example of market following.

The Jammin’ format and Mix 102.7 both share a common trait: they had a more successful older sibling. In the case of the Jammin’ format, it was following in the footsteps of WCBS, which always leaned Motown heavy because of New York’s doo-wop culture. In the case of the Mix 102.7 format, it was following in the footsteps of WKTU. While WCBS organically evolved into its position of leader of the urban oldie market, 15 years ago, WKTU came out of the blue, playing house-disco and freestyle, and made it to #1. The Jammin format and Mix 102.7 were doomed to failure because someone was already doing what they hoped to start.

Explain how a classic (90s) hip hop station would be unlike all of these examples and more successful for CBS Radio than Fresh has been...and not just in terms of ratings, but in terms of revenue.

Well I think it would be like WKTU in that it will be playing music that was wildly popular 10-20 years ago that blacks, whites, and latinos all agreed was good. Additionally, it will be like WKTU in that it will be operating free of competition. And like WKTU I would expect it to rocket to the top of the ratings, a place where Hot was 15 years ago when it was playing the music we would today call classic hip-hop.

Merely stating that the format has a broad appeal with 20-30somethings, without any further evidence or explanation, isn't enough.

Listen to the throwback at noon on Hot 97, not the music but the spots. The spots are four minutes, and they are for national advertisers (though this may be a product of its being lunchtime), during the rest of the day the spots are three minutes and they are for demographically targeted advertisers. Now, ignoring the quality of advertisers, if you have demand to run 33% more spots all day you’ve got a nice increase in sales on your hands. If the quality of advertisers improves along with it, and you have even more yield.

So why doesn’t Hot 97 go classic hip hop? Loyalty to the urban youth? Managements self-concept as cool and hip? Fear of harming WRKS? Whatever reason they have, it’s a bad one. And I hope some observant company exploits the opportunity.

 

[abonita]

The Jammin format and Mix 102.7 were doomed to failure because someone was already doing what they hoped to start.

The Jammin format did not fail. The Jammin format had the rug pulled out from under it when ownership of the company changed, and its champion was no longer part of the operation. The downfall of Jammin 105 came in three parts: first, not planning musically past the initial playlist; second, not getting the right music director until a year in; and third, changing the orientation from multi-cultural to urban.

With WCBS-FM now so firmly entrenched, it would be difficult to make a run against it -- but I still believe that a properly-programmed Jammin-type station would justify its frequency here in New York.