When KSFO Had Shortwave Stations

[KeithE4]

Concerning the former WNYW.....I thought that the US gubmint banned advertising on SW from WWII until the heyday of WRNO, who I thought "found a loophole" to find a way to advertise.

I have a relative who listened to WNYW in the late 60s (somewhere in the 15 MHz range), and I vaguely remember the station, but I sure don't recall any commercials. Any airchecks available online?

WNYW was owned by Bonneville at the end of its commercial era. They ran ads, but there was so much repetitive programming from about 1967 on, I don't know how many were unpaid-for repeats. I don't think there ever was an official ban on commercials. They were "the international affiliate of CBS" - CBS top-of-the-hour news being probably the only live programming they had.

BTW does anybody recall, right after WNYW went off, maybe about 1970, where there was only a loop announcement---sounded like a middle aged woman, saying something like "................This station is located in New York City." If anyone remembers, what was said prior to that, in the loop? And, was that indeed the ex WNYW, or another station altogether?

I don't remember WNYW doing this, but there was a tape loop that aired on AT&T fixed-service frequencies that had that audio. It was something like "This transmission is from the American Telephone and Telegraph Company. This station is located in New York City." It was reduced-carrier SSB - enough carrier to allow it to be intelligible on an AM receiver, but much better quality when the BFO was turned on. I'm guessing that these transmitters were used for international phone calls. I have no idea if the transmitters were actually located in the NYC metro or elsewhere, but they aired from at least 1964 (when I first started listening to shortwave) to the mid '70s.

 

[cd637299]

^ Okay, maybe that explains for me why the woman's voice sounded so muffled....

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[marshallstax]

If you haven't yet seen it - checkout: http://www.americanradiohistory.com - Short-Wave lives on forever there - it's a goldmine of vintage radio mags and related publications... was featured in Radio World magazine recently. Many of the old publications are searchable... and often, when the "print" function is greyed out on a whole issue, the searched page(s) are printable.

 

[MC]

Wasn't the advertising loophole that they would say they weere broadcasting from the such and such hotel Ballroom...and sneek in an ad for the hotel and the ballroom band?

 

[DavidKaye]

I don't remember WNYW doing this, but there was a tape loop that aired on AT&T fixed-service frequencies that had that audio. It was something like "This transmission is from the American Telephone and Telegraph Company. This station is located in New York City." It was reduced-carrier SSB - enough carrier to allow it to be intelligible on an AM receiver, but much better quality when the BFO was turned on. I'm guessing that these transmitters were used for international phone calls. I have no idea if the transmitters were actually located in the NYC metro or elsewhere, but they aired from at least 1964 (when I first started listening to shortwave) to the mid '70s.

Some were used for broadcast relays. Here in the Bay Area, Press Wireless used shortwave to relay Giants baseball games to Hawaii. I used to love to listen to it because I heard the actual Golden West network, not KSFO. So, I'd get a chance to hear Lon Simmons or Russ Hodges make reference to a ball player or a commercial or something during the breaks. I also remember that they'd do a time check and say something like, "Coming up to 5:43pm...WOOF!" They used "woof" as the time marker. I also learned that they kept the mics open during the local avails, and I assume they did this so that the stations knew the audio was working. It would really be disconcerting to come back from a commercial and have no audio...

 

[DavidKaye]

If you haven't yet seen it - checkout: http://www.americanradiohistory.com - Short-Wave lives on forever there - it's a goldmine of vintage radio mags and related publications... was featured in Radio World magazine recently. Many of the old publications are searchable... and often, when the "print" function is greyed out on a whole issue, the searched page(s) are printable.

During the 30s and 40s, shortwave, not FM, was considered to be the Next Big Thing. GE, of course, hedged their bet by displaying both kinds of stations at the 1939-40 Treasure Island world's fair. The SW became KGEI after the fair and the FM became KALW.

But even up into the early 1960s, SW was considered the odds-on favorite as a technology the public would embrace. They certainly didn't.

 

[JEREMIAH]

WNYW (New York Worldwide)....was a shortwave station (commercial) beamed to Latin america)
They had a small srudio (combo) in manhattan with transmitters near Boston. We're talking late 50's-early 60's. They had spanish announcers and had avertisers such as Cocoa Cola.


Some time during my KSFO tenure '78-84 I visited a short wave station located next to KNBR's transmitter on the bay south of the city. I think it was KGEI The whole operation was there Xmitter, engineer, spanish talent(live) etc. and the crazy short wave antenna array. The called it radio San Franciso and beamed to Latin america. I don't recall whether it was commerical or not or how long it lasted. I think it was Mike Amatori (now at KGO) who told me about the place.

I remember when it was fun listening to short wave..Willis Conover with VOA Jazz and checking out those Russians on Radio Moscow. Now it's all preachers.

I remember reading about a commercial short wave station based in Salt Lake city that tried commerical broadcasing some time in the '60s (WRUL) I think they tried to appeal to anyone.


Jerry Gordon

 

[DavidKaye]

Some time during my KSFO tenure '78-84 I visited a short wave station located next to KNBR's transmitter on the bay south of the city. I think it was KGEI The whole operation was there Xmitter, engineer, spanish talent(live) etc. and the crazy short wave antenna array. The called it radio San Franciso and beamed to Latin america. I don't recall whether it was commerical or not or how long it lasted. I think it was Mike Amatori (now at KGO) who told me about the place.

Yes, it was KGEI. After the 1939-40 Treasure Island fair, it was moved to that spot. GE historically had been a partner in RCA, which via NBC owned KNBR (aka KPO, KNBC), thus the adjacent location of the station. During World War II, KGEI, along with KSFO's SW stations KWIX and KWID at Islais Creek (off 3rd Street in SF) became the nucleus of the Voice of America. Yes, the VOA began here. After WWII, the VOA bought NBC's KNBA, et al in Dixon and CBS's KCBR, et al in Delano, along with KWID/KWIX in SF, which was dismantled and moved to Dixon.

KGEI wasn't involved in the VOA acquisition and became a commercial station. Apparently (and I'm trying to find program schedules for KGEI), it ran educational programming from Staford and some block programming such as religious and "patriotic" (aka rightwing) programs. In 1960, GE sold KGEI to Far East Brodcasting Corp, based in southern California, which absorbed it into its worldwide network of religious stations. By 1994 FEBC was spending too much money to keep KGEI afloat and dismantled it. The antenna I'm told went to Gene Scott's ministry, the transmitter to a FEBC station elsewhere, and the land and building were sold to a church.

I remember when it was fun listening to short wave..Willis Conover with VOA Jazz and checking out those Russians on Radio Moscow. Now it's all preachers.

I'd get chills hearing Willis Conover intro the VOA "Jazz Hour", also known as "Music USA/Jazz". Believe it or not, he was so well-loved that the VOA *still* to this day, 17 years after his death, has clips of him and stuff from his shows:
http://www.insidevoa.com/content/a-13-34-2007-07-05-conover-audio-clips-111607684/178077.html

And here's the intro that still gives me goosebumps: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJCy2Tv9erw

I remember reading about a commercial short wave station based in Salt Lake city that tried commerical broadcasing some time in the '60s (WRUL) I think they tried to appeal to anyone.

KUSW; I remember it well. Signal came in great in the Bay Area and I loved the music they played. Alas, what sponsor was going to buy time on such a station?

 

[LKellerIII]

That intro was cool, David.

As a kid, I was intrigued by shortwave when I read about it, but was never able to listen - and I don't know the history.

Why was it not embraced by listeners, as FM was? I would assume access to SW tuners was a factor, as it was with FM, but there are no doubt other reasons.

 

[KeithE4]

I remember reading about a commercial short wave station based in Salt Lake city that tried commerical broadcasing some time in the '60s (WRUL) I think they tried to appeal to anyone.

WRUL was the original callsign for the station that later became WNYW (now WYFR). It was started in Boston but moved to NYC in 1939. It was never based in SLC, although Bonneville owned the station between 1962 and 1973.

 

[KeithE4]

Why was it not embraced by listeners, as FM was? I would assume access to SW tuners was a factor, as it was with FM, but there are no doubt other reasons.

For one thing, the FCC frowns on broadcasts directed to the US by American shortwave stations, and pretty much always has. That doesn't stop the broadcasts from being heard here, of course, but "officially," the broadcasts have to be beamed elsewhere.

Consumer radios with shortwave were still prevalent until the late '60s or so, but they were impossible to tune (usually a single 5.5-18 MHz band - 49 thru 16 meters - either with no bandspread or with a small, uncalibrated "fine tuning" knob) and had the sensitivity of a brick. Good for the BBC, VOA, and the other big broadcasters, but not for much else.

Also, the ionosphere is fickle and unreliable. Today that's considered a killer, but before satellites we just put up with it. The advent of satellites, FM in Latin America that killed their shortwave broadcasts, plus budget and political considerations, caused the end of shortwave broadcasting except to Africa and Asia (and they'll probably be gone in another 10 years).

 

[JEREMIAH]

David Kaye:

You never cease to surprise me. Yes, now I remember, the sign on the building said Far East Broadcasting co. when I visited KGEI that day. I couldn't figure out though why it was Far East when they beamed to latin america. I guess it was just the company name.

Willis Conover: thanks for that clip. It gave me goosebumps as well.
The reason Willis talked so slow was to make it easier for overseas folks who knew some english to understand him.
The VOA would often say this broadcast is in "special english".

When I have more time I'll listen to the other stuff.


Jerry Gordon

 

[Darth_vader]

My Grampa was a fan of Willis Conover for many, many years (he'd first heard him on the air when he was stationed in Japan during the Viet Nam War era.) I could tell you of many Kraft-Dinner-and-hot-dog meals spent at their house with VOA and the old reruns of his programme going on the mid-'60s JVC console stereo in the other room. (They continued transmitting recordings of his programme until well into the '90s. I want to say the last time I heard him on there was probably around '99-early 2000 or so.)

And, of course, being where we are in the Northwest, the Delano transmissions would hit us like a ton of bricks day and night.

"I do remember what radio was like in the 1960s, but the only good example I know of a 1930s aircheck was WJSV Washington DC, that recorded a whole day's worth of radio in something like 1936. It's fascinating. I bought a 12 cassette album at the Smithsonian Institute. I especially like the live remote ballroom dance bands near the end of the broadcast."

http://archive.org/details/CompleteBroadcastDay

I have the whole thing on one disc, and all it cost me was whatever the unit price for a single blank Sony CD-R was in late 2010. ;o)

Definitely interesting stuff, especially when compared to what passes as "radio" these days.

 

[DavidKaye]

Why was it not embraced by listeners, as FM was? I would assume access to SW tuners was a factor, as it was with FM, but there are no doubt other reasons.

During the 1940s a large number of radios had shortwave, usually the 9 to 12 MHz spectrum, but sometimes other parts as well. At one point I owned 6 radios (table and consoles) that all had SW. All were made between 1941 and 1955, so I don't think there was any shortage of radios available.

I think the reason is that the typical listener (this excludes us) wants a steady signal with no noise. SW was simply too erratic for most listeners. Most people do not and never did DX. If they heard the Grand Ole Opry on WSM it was because the signal was blasting them like a local, not because they wanted to hear DX.

 

[nmoore6676]

Indeed many radios from the 40s and before had shortwave capability. Also they had terminals to connect to an outside aerial and earth ground. My parents had one in their living room which they got from "Monkey Wards" which bore the "Airline" trademark. You could pick up European SW broadcasts as well as South America and sometimes Asia, we lived in Ohio.

I believe that I can recall picking up some signals from Mason Ohio's VOA stations which were relatively close to where we lived just north of Dayton. But mostly I was after foreign broadcasts. I also used that receiver to DX the AM band, including Mexican powerhouse operations.

 

[cd637299]

I think that many early radios, like made in the 1930s & 1940s, actually listen *countries* on the slide-rule dial, to remind the listener what country was available in that part; never mind that conditions (and frequencies) could change by the minute....

(I guess that back then, bugs were still being worked on, as far as learning reception issues.)

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[DavidKaye]

I think that many early radios, like made in the 1930s & 1940s, actually listen *countries* on the slide-rule dial, to remind the listener what country was available in that part; never mind that conditions (and frequencies) could change by the minute....

(I guess that back then, bugs were still being worked on, as far as learning reception issues.)

cd

As far as I know, the countries were wishful thinking. My Philco 41-290 was my favorite radio (here's a photo of the model: http://www.tuberadioland.com/philco41-290_main.html ), which my grandmother had bought locally, probably at Sherman Clay or one of those stores. The push buttons had callsigns of KSFO, KFRC, KPO, KGO, KLX, KROW, and KLS on it.

Turning the bandswitch knob changed from the buttons to "Broadcast", which was 540 to 1720, "Police", which was 2.3 to 7.0 MHz (at the low end was Loran and some ship-to-shore telephone operators and the 41 and 49 meter broadcast bands at the upper end. This where I heard the low-powered Canadian broadcasters, and some late night AFRTS.

The "Overseas" band was 9 to 12MHz, which was where I spent most of my listening time, usually in the 31 meter band. NHK Radio Japan had a morning signal on 9.505 which boomed in like it was next door. I head the VOA, Voice of Free Korea, Radio Australia, Radio RSA (Republic of South Africa), Radio New Zealand, Radio Peking, Radio Moscow, and lots of other stations from the Asian and Pacific part of the world, and of course the West Coasters such as HCJB in Quito, Radio Nederland and TWR on
Bonaire, etc.

But because the Philco was designed on the East Coast, the countries listed on the dial were countries more likely to be heard on the East Coast -- Rome, Paris, Berlin, etc., which I never head. I did hear London, of course, but the BBC had so many relays that I could have been hearing transmitters from just about anywhere.

 

[Ai4i]

Nice furniture, makes one ponder...what if?
If SW had caught on, we might have a much more educated public today.

Name that commentator:
"Thank you and good evening"

 

[HHH]

CFCF Montreal and CFRB Toronto relayed their commercial broadcasts on shortwave I believe right into the 1990s.

 

[cd637299]

CFCF Montreal and CFRB Toronto relayed their commercial broadcasts on shortwave I believe right into the 1990s.

CFRX (CFRB relay) is still going strong on 6070. Also there was CHNX (relay of CHNS Halifax) on 6130.

Is CFVP (Calgary) still on 6030?

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