When the 800-Pound Gorilla Leaves the Room

[rfry]

WKNX Studios & Neon Sign

In the 1950s-1960s at least, the studios/offices of WKNX were located in a building on the 200 block of S. Washington in Saginaw (M-13), west side of the street. The fairly large and art-deco-ish Michigan Bell building is located on the block just south of that building. WKNX did have their call sign in large neon letters on the front of the building. Howard Wolfe was a partner in Lake Huron Bdcstg with Bill Edwards.

The studios of WSGW for many years were located in a building on the SE corner of Washington and E. Genesee, about 2 blocks north of WKNX. WSGW had their call letters painted on large signs on two sides of the building. They've since moved to 1795 Tittabawassee Rd, just east of its junction with I-675.

 

[charlestondxman]

I've caught pretty much all of the local AMs off in Charleston at one time or another.

630 (WBMQ Savannah, strong here): never really caught them off
690 (WOKV Jacksonville): probably a stronger WPTF
730 (Catholic): They were off for several months around 2009-10. Numerous signals came in. Lake Placid, FL was the one that came in most often during the day. Memphis (with just 1kw directional to the east at night) was surprisingly strong and atop that frequency.
910 (ESPN Radio): Spartanburg on that frequency comes in frequently, even when the local is on the air. On James Island (probably 10-12 mi from the tower in North Charleston), you can hear Spartanburg under them almost every day, especially in the winter. They also have some wicked nighttime nulls. I've also heard Johnson City, TN there.
950 (talk): Orlando, Spartanburg, and others have been heard. At night Spartanburg comes in a lot.
980 (Spanish): With this signal being about 25 miles from my area, several signals mix in, even in the daylight. Washington is the one that comes in most.
1250 (WTMA news/talk): In all my years of DXing (over 15), I've heard them off air maybe twice. St. Augustine is stronger on 1240, but there's nothing even close on 1250. I've heard Pittsburgh at night.
1340 (news/talk): Over a decade ago when they were sports, they were OTA due to a lightning strike for over two weeks. During that time, Daytona Beach blasted in at over 250 miles (they were adult standards at the time). Usual GY mis-mash at night.
1390 (business talk): They just finished several weeks of being OTA about 5-6 months ago. I wouldn't hear anything on 1390, but I'd hear WGTN Georgetown on 1400 and a couple of 1380s weak (including Ormond Beach, FL)
1450 (sports): I've heard a couple other signals there. Daytona Beach and Myrtle Beach have been heard daytime during their OTA or low power periods. One time a couple years ago they were down to like 200 watts and you could hear Myrtle Beach here.
1480 (Spanish simulcast of 980): You can hear nothing much during the daytime when they're off, but I've heard a couple 1470s (Georgetown, SC and Columbia) far away from their transmitter. 1490 also is helped when they're off (Beaufort, Brunswick, GA the dominants there)

The FMs here rarely go off the air for anything unless it is very late at night. I have caught 96.9 from Jacksonville several times though even with our local 96.9 OTA.

 

[rfry]

WSAM vs. WDTK

... Also, when WJLB...WDTK 1400 Detroit goes off the air, WSAM 1400 in Saginaw has a surprisingly good signal near where I live.

I was thinking that the surprisingly good signal from WSAM could be due to their use of a λ/2 tower (381.4 mV/m at 1 km for 1 kW, per FCC AM Query).

Then I checked WDTK and saw where they also use a λ/2 tower. However AM Query shows them as having 439.35 mV/m at 1 km for 1 kW.

Hard to believe that two different towers of the same electrical height and the same applied power can produce such a large difference in their fields at 1 km.

A typical λ/4 tower driven against 120 x λ/4 buried radials produces ~306 mV/m at 1 km for 1 kW of applied power. WSAM exceeds that by about 1.9 dB, which is reasonable. WDTK allegedly exceeds that by 3.14 dB, which is not reasonable.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I got lost in Saginaw several times trying to get from near Bridgeport (Williamson Rd.) to out West of Fashion Square Mall (Center Rd.) without going on I-75 or I-675, because it requires turning and confusing one way streets. Back when they were building I-75, and US 10 between Bay City and Midland, there were frequent detours. I remember seeing the old WQDC 99.7 tower along there, which was down at the end of a dirt access road. WQDC was part of the Mid States FM Network. WUGN is now on 99.7, with a much taller tower. Clarence "Dusty" Rhodes, a different Dusty from the one from CKLW and Cincinnati, was an early host and General Manager for Mid States. He became a restaurateur in East Lansing after leaving Radio.

What I can't figure out is how you used to be able to see the three 400+ foot towers of WKNX 1210, now WHHQ 1250 from I-75 near Bridgeport with no difficulty. You could just look over and there they were. Some people said they moved or shortened the towers, but I think they are just obscured, possibly by trees next to I-75. Before they went to 10000 watts on 1210, they were 1000 watts nondirectional on Treanor St., with a quarter wave tower next to the WKNX-TV tower. The FM station on 104.5 (WILZ) now broadcasts from that location.

 

[rfry]

... What I can't figure out is how you used to be able to see the three 400+ foot towers of WKNX 1210, now WHHQ 1250 from I-75 near Bridgeport with no difficulty. You could just look over and there they were. Some people said they moved or shortened the towers, but I think they are just obscured, possibly by trees next to I-75. ... .

The FCC shows the WHHQ array to use 3 x 183° towers and one 90° tower. The trees may be blocking sight of them from stretches of I-75, but maybe they could be seen briefly from some places on I-75 (see below).
-

 

[cyberdad]

ai4i, sounds like a nice saltwater haul for WTIX in Gainesville..

WTIX had a "gorilla-like" monster daytime signal along the Florida Panhandle Gulf Coast. Not quite as strong as WWL, but reasonably close. Night signal was pretty decent as well, despite the drop from 10kw to 5kw. So it's not at all difficult to envision them making the hop into Gainesville with relative ease. As WQNO, the day signal has been restored somewhat following Katrina, but it's not as good as it was during the WTIX days. The night WQNO signal is markedly inferior to what WTIX was at night.

 

[HGR1290]

Back in the late 70s and early 80s you could still see the WKNX array from 75....just barely (and you had to know where to look) I think that the trees have since obscured the view.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I guess a row of pine trees about 45 feet high about 0.2 miles away would be enough to obscure the WKNX...WHHQ towers. Even shorter if the pine trees were on the side of the expressway. I don't think I realized until I saw them plotted on a USGS Topological Map that the three towers were not in a line.

 

[rfry]

I guess a row of pine trees about 45 feet high about 0.2 miles away would be enough to obscure the WKNX...WHHQ towers. Even shorter if the pine trees were on the side of the expressway. I don't think I realized until I saw them plotted on a USGS Topological Map that the three towers were not in a line.

True. But there might be brief, clear openings to view at least the 3 taller towers of the WHHQ array from some locations along I-75 south of Bridgeport.

The towers in that array are not in perfect linear alignment, but still are aligned rather nearly parallel with I-75 at its closest approach (see below).

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

At one time in the late 1970s or early 1980s, WXOX 1250 had an application for an array about a mile East of the new WBCM...WMAX 1440 array, West of and next to I-75. According to an engineer I talked to, it was four towers, 5000 watts DA-2, and the night pattern "looked like an exclamation point". So it was either an endfire type in line pattern or a near rectangular parallelogram. I'm not sure it they issued a CP for it. So a dedicated array tower arrangement and pattern design under the older rules apparently allowed more night power. It would have been a shame to take down those 1/2 wave towers though.

 

[Ai4i]

Why do I see so many arrangements like the one shown in the rfry's last reply?
Many years ago, I babysat a station with three towers in line and a fourth one that was slightly off.
My only guess is that the three inlines are aiming where they want the signal to go and the rear tower location was adjusted to get the null exactly where it needed to be.

 

[frankberry]

Looking at their pattern, it appears that the fourth tower provides a small lobe to the southwest.
Otherwise, it's a symmetrical pattern with the major lobe going to the north-northeast.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

Today, it's usually using the towers that are already there and adding some to modify the pattern to increase power. The problem with three in lines and four in lines is that they are symmetrical. Often the pattern requirements are asymmetrical. One Michigan station fairly recently first applied for an inline Night pattern. Due to the symmetry, it was only able to get to around 1 kW. When they designed a four tower dogleg array, they were able to get to about 5 kW Night. They were able to "steer" the nulls to the azimuths necessary to protect the well protected stations better. Symmetry would have been a compromise, reducing the power that could be achieved. Of course, computers and computer aided design made this practical. I think WKNX 1210 was the first dogleg three tower pattern in Michigan, though WSGW 790 has a three tower dogleg component multiplied with three more in a multiplicative way (acts like a two tower pattern multiplied by the three tower dogleg component) to achieve the six tower near parallelogram. WFIL 560 is a good example of an early three tower slight dogleg array. Then there are the "incomplete parallelograms" like WMT 600. Most of these were designed in the 1940s, largely without computers, though there were analog type devices used to design some of them.

WXOX...WHHQ had to protect WJIM to the same contour overlap when they moved and went to 1000 watts and then 5000 watts directional Days. The fourth tower also allowed deeper nulls to protect WTAE, WGL, and WEMP better (Note I am using historical call letters, as I would have to look them up otherwise). I remember hearing someone say they could only get a few tens of watts PSSA with just the three tower dogleg array that was there, and they got 1100 watts Night with the fourth tower.

 

[gr8oldies]

On AM in Knoxville, except for WRJZ-620 and WNML-990, the area AMs have been off the air for at least some period of time, in a couple of cases up to a year, and at least one permanently.
620-WRJZ. never heard off. I've even heard this station in northern Ohio. I doubt much would be heard on 620, but it would be easier to hear WTVN-610 and WMAL-630, which I've heard in Sevier County
670-WMTY signed off about a year ago, nothing heard day, WSCR and Rebelde by night
850-WKVL Even with 50,000 watts, WKNR-Cleveland made appearances, and with WKVL off, if winter skip stayed in, sometimes so did WKNR
930-WSEV, I hear signals just past sunrise, one being WLLL, Lynchburg, VA; another WRVC, near Huntington WV and WKCT, Bowling Green, KY. Nothing in the middle of the day
990-WNML Never caught off and not sure what I'd get. I would get better copy on WONE, Dayton on 980 and on WMVP-1000
1120-WKCE during their long periods of silence, KMOX sometimes well after sunrise and before sunset
1180-WVLZ They were just off this week for a few days, nothing but WHAM nights and after sunrise'/before sunset. The Cuban Chorus with WHAM at nigtht


FM: 89.9 WDVX. While off air a few years ago, I got WKVO, Georgetown, KY
91.9 WUOT. I don't think I'll live long enough for it to ever go off the air. Most likely candidate: WVTR, Marion, VA. That would open up 92.1
93.1 WNOX. WSAA Benton, TN heard under onc
100.3 WCYQ -I've caught this behemoth off and heard WVVR, Hopkinsville KY
102.1 WWST. I have caught off but nothing in it's place.
107.7 WIVK. Never off. Most likely candidate would be Mt. Sterling KY or Dayton OH

 

[cyberdad]

990-WNML Never caught off and not sure what I'd get. I would get better copy on WONE, Dayton on 980 and on WMVP-1000

If it ever happens, try for CBW. I'd think it would probably make it to K-town. Especially on a good radio.

I've got a major "cyberdad road trip" coming up next week, which includes a couple of weeks at St. Pete Beach. Top of my bucket list is CBW. I haven't heard it there yet, but this year I'm a "man on a mission". I'm dead serious. No more fooling around. I'm bringing the Supe II!

CBW has a fabulous signal most nights in the Chicago area, so I'm hoping this time I'll hear them make the hop all the way to the Tampa Bay area.

(Apologies for the veer).

 

[gr8oldies]

I got CBW fairly often in Ohio, we'd have to see if that would be the case in East Tennessee.

 

[crainbebo]

On FM, I've heard my locals off several times already. There was a big power outage on 6/29/2015 which knocked almost every AM/FM in Yakima off the air or on open carrier.
Without 100KW KFFM, I hear CHBE Victoria, BC w/ their CHR format, "107.3 Kool FM" (180 miles). I'll also hear 107.5 KXJM Banks, OR "Jam'n 107.5" (120 mi).
Without K295BT 106.9 (250W) I usually hear KRWM Bremerton (100) and KMOK Lewiston (170). I did hear K295AV Walla Walla (100) during the 6/29/15 outage, briefly with ID "106.9 Bob FM". 250W at 100 miles, not bad. 106.7 usually will have a faint KLTH Portland (120) in and out, but I have heard KWWX Wenatchee (60) before.
Without K291BV 106.1 (250W) I will hear KBKS Tacoma (95) and KZFN Moscow (165) in and out. 106.1 used to be open until January 2015, so they would always show up.
Without KRSE 105.7 (100KW), it's usually KZBE Spokane (165) and KQAK Bend (180) in and out. No CBU Vancouver (220) yet.
Without KATS 94.5 (100KW), I have heard CFBT Vancouver (220), KRXY Shelton (125) and KHTQ Hayden (180). Tentative on KJDY 94.5 John Day (170).
Without KDBL 92.9 (17KW), I have heard KISM Bellingham (180), KRXF Bend (180), KZZU Spokane (165) and oh, almost forgot, KAFF Flagstaff, AZ (via E-skip)! Logged with playlist match during a brief opening in June 2014.

 

[Ai4i]

In Fort Lauderdale, WDNA is solid all day, but when nightfall comes, WQCS's higher power takes over.

 

[pianoplayer88key]

There's an interesting concept: a Gospel station using the KURS calls. I swear it's going to be a hit! Sorry to have hijacked the thread.

What I think would be just as "interesting" (if you want to call it that), if not more so, would be a Christian station assigned to 666 kHz in a location using the 9 kHz band plan.

Also, I believe KURS is Spanish Catholic now, having inherited the format from 1240 when they started simulcasting KBRT, not Gospel music, but I haven't listened to them in quite a while.

Now how about when the 8,000-petaton gorilla re-enters a room a few doors down the hallway? This video shows what happened to 1490-KFFN when 1550-KUAZ signed on when I was near Tuscon, AZ, last March.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_PmDZNgVe1w

In my opinion, a decently designed radio of similar size & price, or at most, like the CC Skywave (which I don't own so idk how well it does) wouldn't have been affected at all, even on 1540 and 1560, when KUAZ came on. Now otoh, if I was close enough to the tower to present an immediate hazard to my health, then of course I'd expect the radios to overload.