WHERE ARE THE UNIONS?

[Big E]

Well since you asked, I am in LA. I started at $8, but didnt stay there, because i wasnt complacent, and was vocal about wanting to move up. And like most in here, I worked two jobs so I can live comfortably, nothing afluent by any means, but ok. I was'nt fortunate enough to work during the 80's or even the early 90's, I started when all the consolidation began. I had 5 company changes in a 6 year period, I saw many great people fired or "let go", less and less perks, but i stayed. You sound like alot (not all) of the people that were used to radio being a mom and pop or small companies that actually cared of their product. But now, its a different beast. If you cant adjust to the madness that is radio...well maybe you should'nt be in radio. I know the day that I begin to complain about what I do, that'll be the day I change careers. But for now, I still enjoy radio. Even if it is messed up by the corporate world, it still beats manual labor!

 

[RicoGregg]

Well since you asked, I am in LA.

I didn't ask. This is what I actually said:

I don't know where you are, Big E, but it obviously isn't Los Angeles, one of the most expensive cities to live in.

Doesn't look like a question to me. Feel free to re-read the post to check for ver betum editing. I do, however, stand corrected on your location. Don't misinterpret that as an apology. It's not.

And like most in here, I worked two jobs so I can live comfortably, nothing afluent by any means, but ok.

What kind of career is it considered normal to work two jobs? That is not the radio business that I entered in 1967. Back then, it was considered a profession, a career. Not a hack job. Once you had that First Class FCC License, you could virtually pick your employer, and where you wanted to live.

You sound like alot (not all) of the people that were used to radio being a mom and pop or small companies that actually cared of their product. But now, its a different beast.

Big E, when I started in radio, it WAS mostly mom & pop outfits, and they, along with big companies actually DID care about their product. Since there were more outlets in more hands than there are now, there was more competition. You used to have radio wars between stations. Not only among rock stations, but other formats. In L.A., news outlets KNX and KFWB were always trying to one-up each other. Even L.A.'s Beautiful Music stations, KBIG, KOST, KPOL, and XTRA got into it with each other in 1970. Quality was a major concern with anyone, regardless of food chain standing. It was a different beast back then. And a lot more fierce than present day.

If you cant adjust to the madness that is radio...well maybe you should'nt be in radio. I know the day that I begin to complain about what I do, that'll be the day I change careers. But for now, I still enjoy radio. Even if it is messed up by the corporate world, it still beats manual labor!

I started adjusting to radio's madness when I started in 1967. I also learned to adjust to radio's adjustments, something you'll need to learn someday. The only consistency in radio is change.

I'm not in radio presently. I work at a friend's production house, and I do free lance work on the Internet. Like a former baseball player, I still enjoy the game. Radio was always my first love.

Corporate radio has already turned board ops into manual labor. At least, they have to the ones that remain. They're very much in danger of becoming obsolete.

Union involvement might have helped radio employees under present-day conditions, if not for station managements' railroading that weakened the unions' influence, and sycophant employees standing by and doing nothing. Just toeing the management line without a thought of their own.

 

[Big E]

Ok, let me restate it this way. Actually I am in Los Angeles...better? I didnt talk about a career when I said I had two jobs, if you misread it, well I cant be faulted. Dont know what else you've done as work, but radio is NOT manual labor, not even close to it. Didnt have to learn change in radio, change has been the norm since i've been in LA. Looks like having the union at CC didnt seem to make a difference did it?

 

[RicoGregg]

Ok, let me restate it this way. Actually I am in Los Angeles...better?

That's fine, but I still didn't ask a question the first time.

I didnt talk about a career when I said I had two jobs, if you misread it, well I cant be faulted.

Let's see, what did you say exactly?

And like most in here, I worked two jobs so I can live comfortably, nothing afluent by any means, but ok.

By saying "most in here", you're insinuating that the majority of R-I readers, interested in one form of broadcasting or another, have had to work two jobs in order to live comfortably. Those interested in broadcasting in one form or another are usually interested in it as a career. That's part of the nature of the beast's attraction.

I didn't misread anything.

Dont know what else you've done as work, but radio is NOT manual labor, not even close to it.

Who's misreading! Here's what I actually said:

Corporate radio has already turned board ops into manual labor. At least, they have to the ones that remain. They're very much in danger of becoming obsolete.

There's a big difference between radio as a whole, and board operators. And, from past experience and hearing others' stories, board ops are treated by many companies like unskilled labor.

Didnt have to learn change in radio, change has been the norm since i've been in LA.

And some of it's changes could wind up affecting you adversely. If that happens, are you going to continue to stand idly by and do nothing?

Looks like having the union at CC didnt seem to make a difference did it?

At least you stuck to this thread's topic this time. I can't answer that question for sure since I wasn't there. I would, however, speculate that AFTRA's involvement may have saved the jobs of the people that remain, what with computerized voice tracking being utilized by the Clear Channels of this world. The unmanned radio station is already a reality, especially in rural areas. It's so advanced that listeners can't tell the difference. Every day we get closer and closer to it becoming Standard Operating Procedure in major markets.

For your own sake, you better build up some name value, so that it'll be less likely that you'll be replaced by something electronic. Of course, without a union to go to bat for you, well......

 

[Chris_Rose]

What a properly organized and functioning union could have and should have done was fight like hell against the 1996 Telecom Act. Has it become apparent to anyone yet that this is what spelled the END of the radio industry that we once knew and loved?

 

[kyscott]

Why do you need a union? Are you unable to negotiate your salary with station managment?

To answer Mr. kyscott's final question, I was unable to negotiate my salary with station management. Not when station management didn't feel like negotiating salary with me.

Normally I don't answer blowhards like this, but I can't resist. First, it's tough all over especally when you are starting out. I started babysitting an automation system for minimum wage in 1980. I have worked my way up to owning my own consulting firm WITHOUT the help of one damn union. In fact, the two times I was forced to join a union, they held me back more than anything else.

If management didn't want to negotiate with you, then what precluded you from getting another job from somewhere else?

Also, if you will read my original post, it wasn't my final question....it was my ONLY question.

 

[kyscott]

It's what you call "your money or your life" kind of negotiation. Unless somebody is a "name," they really have no bargaining position. A big reason why radio has moved away from "personalities" is to have on-air employees who are interchangeable, replaceable and easily fired.

Sure you have a bargaining tool. Leave. If you are not being paid what you are worth, why would you depend on some union to come in and dictate what you are worth? Why do you think engineers left broadcasting in droves? Because cellular companies paid more and offered better benefits. The upside to that is now that I'm a contract engineer, I have a bunch of clients that need my services and are willing to pay me what I demand....without the help of a union.

It continues to amaze me how radio treats employees like dirt, those employees defend management's right to do so and bash denounce unions. Instead most people get out of the biz before they are 30, after either getting fired or realizing that as long as they stay in radio they will never be able to afford to move out of their parents' basement.

You are only treated like dirt because you allow it. If I have someone who's 60 days or later paying for work I have done, they are on their own to find another engineer. And in this part of the country, that's not easy.

There is a lot wrong with how unions operate but how else can workers respond effectively to bad treatment? If anybody has a better idea, let's hear it.

Friggin' leave. Don't work there. Find somewhere else to go. As long as you tolerate being treated like crap, that's exactly how you will be treated. You people kill me acting like you need the union to protect you. Once station managment figured out they can't hire someone to work for what they are paying them, they would either go out of business or pay more. Damn people, grow a backbone.

 

[kyscott]

What a properly organized and functioning union could have and should have done was fight like hell against the 1996 Telecom Act. Has it become apparent to anyone yet that this is what spelled the END of the radio industry that we once knew and loved?

Well, that was part of it. The other half was Wall Street discovering radio and expecting the same amount of growth that happened in the 90's. The reason things are done on the cheep so much now, is because you have shareholders who could care less about Arbitron numbers looking at the bottom line numbers. That on top of the inflated prices that were paid for radio stations made it impossible to generate the type of return that the shareholders were used to. So, you cut costs. And the first cost to cut is the most easily manageable and that is labor. Now you have companies like Clear Channel stuck with stations that are nowhere near worth what they bought them for 10 years ago.

However, radio being an entertainment medium and unlike most other businesses, the powers that be did not understand that the more labor you cut, the more personality you take out. That was all well and good until the Ipod and satellite radio came along, and soon mobile WiFi. Now the years of "more music and less talk" are catching up. Yet the powers that be still cannot see that the only things radio have going for it are intimacy and immediacy. You get a jock that connects with the listeners and you have loyalty that no amount of money can by. Breaking news happens and radio can be right there to inform the people before TV and certianly before newspapers.

Those things were thrown away in order to make the bottom line look good. Now, we have a generation of people that have been raised in a world where radio has not been run like we remember. Therefor they don't miss what was never there, which means that radio is even more irrelevant to them.

 

[jrplbg]

"Just leave."

Uh huh. Yeah, such an easy answer.

In a business where jobs are DISAPPEARING and the ones that remain do not pay enough to cover your bills.

Yeah, so easy.

There's a big honkin' load of karma coming.

 

[RicoGregg]

Why do you need a union? Are you unable to negotiate your salary with station managment?

To answer Mr. kyscott's final question, I was unable to negotiate my salary with station management. Not when station management didn't feel like negotiating salary with me.

Normally I don't answer blowhards like this, but I can't resist. First, it's tough all over especally when you are starting out. I started babysitting an automation system for minimum wage in 1980. I have worked my way up to owning my own consulting firm WITHOUT the help of one damn union. In fact, the two times I was forced to join a union, they held me back more than anything else.

If management didn't want to negotiate with you, then what precluded you from getting another job from somewhere else?

Also, if you will read my original post, it wasn't my final question....it was my ONLY question.

Um, do you ever bother looking at your own posts? Take a look at the first line of your own quote above that YOU posted - I see TWO question marks! I read TWO questions! Your final question was not your only question. You contradicted yourself.

OK, just wondering, who are the unions for employees of consulting firms? This topic is about RADIO unions.

Normally I don't answer blowhards like this, but I can't resist.

In my discussions with Big E or the one I'm having with you, I never resorted to name-calling. I kept it civil, and adult-like. I guess you haven't gotten high school completely out of your system. As a matter of fact, in my very first reference in an earlier post, I said:

"With all due respect to Mr. kyscott".

And what is blowhard about telling a radio horror story? I'm willing to bet that most people who've been in radio for any length of time has at least one.

Go back and read it. In the adult world, it's called "respectfully disagreeing." I wasn't trying to start anything with anybody. I guess you were in a different mood.

Sure you have a bargaining tool. Leave.

Friggin' leave. Don't work there.

I guess taking simplistic stands like this save you the trouble of thinking.

 

[D-B-Z]

A union will not work in an environment that has employees stabbing each other in the back just so they can stay on to until the next round of cuts and collect two more weeks of their urine-pot check. There needs to be trust and loyalty for a group of people to start a union…and since the Upper Crust has destroyed trust and loyalty…there will be no union.

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

It's what you call "your money or your life" kind of negotiation. Unless somebody is a "name," they really have no bargaining position. A big reason why radio has moved away from "personalities" is to have on-air employees who are interchangeable, replaceable and easily fired.

Sure you have a bargaining tool. Leave. If you are not being paid what you are worth, why would you depend on some union to come in and dictate what you are worth? Why do you think engineers left broadcasting in droves? Because cellular companies paid more and offered better benefits. The upside to that is now that I'm a contract engineer, I have a bunch of clients that need my services and are willing to pay me what I demand....without the help of a union.

It continues to amaze me how radio treats employees like dirt, those employees defend management's right to do so and bash denounce unions. Instead most people get out of the biz before they are 30, after either getting fired or realizing that as long as they stay in radio they will never be able to afford to move out of their parents' basement.

You are only treated like dirt because you allow it. If I have someone who's 60 days or later paying for work I have done, they are on their own to find another engineer. And in this part of the country, that's not easy.

There is a lot wrong with how unions operate but how else can workers respond effectively to bad treatment? If anybody has a better idea, let's hear it.

Friggin' leave. Don't work there. Find somewhere else to go. As long as you tolerate being treated like crap, that's exactly how you will be treated. You people kill me acting like you need the union to protect you. Once station managment figured out they can't hire someone to work for what they are paying them, they would either go out of business or pay more. Damn people, grow a backbone.

As Jay Marvin suggested in another thread, radio is often a labor of love (or at least starts out that way). You say the only option is to give it up and do something else. A lot of people have done just that. Journeyman radio talent is considered expendable. Management knows there are dozens out there ready to take any open place. Management also doesn't seem to think that quality, ability or talent matters much. In the view of corporate owners (and even local owners), we are factory workers and are all interchangeable.

If radio is not doing well as a business these days, it's managements own damn fault. But their solution is to balance the books on the backs of programming personnel (on-air quality be damned). Maybe radio is not raking in the money these days because of how they treat their workers, because of how that treatment impacts how the station sounds to listeners, because of the loss of good people who had enough of ill-treatment and left as you suggest.

I can't help but wonder what kind of person rushes to defend the kind of bastardly behavior that typifies much of radio management.

Anybody notice radio companies never make those lists of "Best Companies to Work For?" Ever notice those that do tend to committed to quality and to be profitable in the long-term?

 

[kyscott]

"Just leave."

Uh huh. Yeah, such an easy answer.

In a business where jobs are DISAPPEARING and the ones that remain do not pay enough to cover your bills.

Yeah, so easy.

There's a big honkin' load of karma coming.

The jobs are disappearing and the ones that remain don't pay enough, so what's your answer?

 

[kyscott]

I guess taking simplistic stands like this save you the trouble of thinking.

No. It means I value my talents more than to work for piss poor managers. It means that if I find myself working for people that do not appreciate my abilities, I leave and find someone who does. I do not depend on a union to strong arm managers for me.

 

[Julius Leonard Marx]

I guess taking simplistic stands like this save you the trouble of thinking.

No. It means I value my talents more than to work for piss poor managers. It means that if I find myself working for people that do not appreciate my abilities, I leave and find someone who does. I do not depend on a union to strong arm managers for me.

I'm glad you went to work for yourself and things turned out well for you. That solution doesn't work for everyone.

Somehow I keep thinking of an old Herblock cartoon: Barry Goldwater says to a homeless person living in an alley, "If you had an initiative, you'd go out an inherit a department store." (Note: Goldwater's family owned Goldwater's Department Store in Phoenix.) There's a fine line between rugged individualism and lack of compassion.

You don't want radio employees to get together to "strong arm" management. Somehow it's OK for managers to get together to strong-arm the FCC, congress and other regulators.

Most people in major market unionized stations do not work for scale. Unions are not just about money. They protect employees when management acts in way that is arbitrary, unreasonable, capricious or illegal.

I'm not clear: Do your comments reflect your own dissatisfaction with unions when you were in one, or are you really on the side of management, approving their treatment of personnel and telling us they are really good guys?

They say a liberal is somebody who has never been mugged. Maybe on the other side you have people who have never screwed by their employer.

 

[observer8057]

Let us not forget the VERY close connection between Lowry Mays and George W. Bush. They are both cut from the same greedy, clueless Texas cloth. More on that below.

(Concerning the union issue, I am no lover of AFTRA. But I must enlighten the nay-sayers to some facts. AFTRA is very necessary. It's the best we have, at least for now. Those who don't understand, or who have not worked long-term major jobs in major markets [even with personal services contracts] simply don't have a clue about how things work in "The Big Time." And let us not forget that AFTRA provides the foundation for many issues beyond salaries and work rules for those with PSCs. AFTRA IS necessary.

(That said, AFTRA is totally spineless. In negotiating, if CC or CBS say "jump" AFTRA asks "How high?" They come up with a myriad of excuses, generally ending with "we got the best we could." What about the WGA or the Teamsters, for that matter. They have some spine. AFTRA staff, in general -- with some wonderful exceptions -- are way out of their league when they come face-to-face in negotiations with the labor legal teams of employers. However, I would invite those here who boast of their abilities to make their own deals have never faced long-term major market realities, no matter how much they boast.

(Also keep in mind that a good general manager may WANT to provide protections and perks and better deals, but they are beholden to "market managers" and "regional managers" and "corporate polices" and on and on. At least AFTRA is in a better position to TRY to deal with those realities than the lone employee.)

Now back to Lowry Mays and GWB. Anyone who does not know the Mays/Texas Rangers/Bush connection has missed a big part of that which we lowly radio staffers are now facing. (I will also mention that Bill Clinton has to take a lot of the blame, as well, for signing the 1996 Act --a move he now regrets, although WAY too late).

If you don't know a big part of the story of how GWB became a multi-millionaire, take a couple of minutes and Google "Lowry Mays George Bush." A lot will become much more clear

 

[RicoGregg]

I guess taking simplistic stands like this save you the trouble of thinking.

No. It means I value my talents more than to work for piss poor managers. It means that if I find myself working for people that do not appreciate my abilities, I leave and find someone who does. I do not depend on a union to strong arm managers for me.

It also means that you can't be bothered with other people who aren't in your personal situation. They could be valuable allies later down the road, but apparently considering how others may be affected is an unfamiliar concept to you. Some workmate you are. I'd hate to be in a foxhole with you.

 

[jrplbg]

The jobs are disappearing and the ones that remain don't pay enough, so what's your answer?

Exactly my point. That's why the whole "If you don't like the radio station you're working for, just go get a job at another one" answer is so trite and insulting.

One may as well say, "If you don't like your house, just sell it and buy a better one!" Yeah, great if you've already got some money and can afford to take the bath you're going to take in today's market.

 

[kyscott]

The jobs are disappearing and the ones that remain don't pay enough, so what's your answer?

Exactly my point. That's why the whole "If you don't like the radio station you're working for, just go get a job at another one" answer is so trite and insulting.

So you don't like my answer, yet you do not have one of your own? So in your situation, my job sucks, my boss sucks and I'm not getting paid enough to pay my bills, but I can't go look for another job. Does that about sum it up?

 

[kyscott]

It also means that you can't be bothered with other people who aren't in your personal situation. They could be valuable allies later down the road, but apparently considering how others may be affected is an unfamiliar concept to you. Some workmate you are. I'd hate to be in a foxhole with you.

No, what you failed to see is that I was in the same situation that the people are in who were fired. But instead of whining about it waiting for the incompetent union to do something about it, I made it on my own. I fixed it where nobody could ever take my livelyhood away from me simply because they didn't make budget this quarter. But I suppose you were bloviating so much on your own personal "woe is me" story, you missed it.