Where's the bad news?

[calstymes]

dumber than a box of hair reported:

Before someone thinks they found something make that NO interference caused by the NY IBOC station. For instance I am 150 miles or so from 50 KW WGY which runs IBOC and they cause no interference to either WNYC(810) or WLAD (800)at my location.

I am 6.4 miles from the WRKO/680 transmitter in suburban Boston and I can hear, clear as a bell, the IBOC carriers from WFAN/660 at my house on every AM radio I own. When sunset comes, the interference vanishes.

The FCC has no idea what they've set themselves up for by authorizing HD at night.

This is not entirely unreasonable. I would guess that because the WFAN transmitter is co-located with WCBS on the Long Island sound then this is the reason they both put one heck of a single up into New England. Whenever I have driven up toward Boston I have been able to receive them like they are locals.

It is not surprising to me that dumber can hear the WFAN IBOC hash in Boston. Maybe the FCC will redraw AM primary coverage areas to include Boston in WFAN's contour.

 

[R.F. Burns]

dumber than a box of hair reported:

Before someone thinks they found something make that NO interference caused by the NY IBOC station. For instance I am 150 miles or so from 50 KW WGY which runs IBOC and they cause no interference to either WNYC(810) or WLAD (800)at my location.

I am 6.4 miles from the WRKO/680 transmitter in suburban Boston and I can hear, clear as a bell, the IBOC carriers from WFAN/660 at my house on every AM radio I own. When sunset comes, the interference vanishes.

The FCC has no idea what they've set themselves up for by authorizing HD at night.

This is not entirely unreasonable. I would guess that because the WFAN transmitter is co-located with WCBS on the Long Island sound then this is the reason they both put one heck of a single up into New England. Whenever I have driven up toward Boston I have been able to receive them like they are locals.

It is not surprising to me that dumber can hear the WFAN IBOC hash in Boston. Maybe the FCC will redraw AM primary coverage areas to include Boston in WFAN's contour.

This is very interesting. My daughter just graduated from a college in Worchester Mass and we were up there a few weeks ago for her graduation. I had no trouble hearing WRKO and there was no WFAN interference (WFAN is pretty week in Worchester during the day). Worchester is outside of the WRKO protected contour and yet I heard not one trace of WFAN interference on 680. Remember, if WFAN is transmitting 500 watts digital on 660/670 Khz, how much power is being transmitted on their second adjacent channels. Not 500 watts for sure. If a demo of the interference could be recorded it would help clear up any misunderstanding. For instance, what radio was being used. If for instance it contained a wide band filter (12.5 khz or so), one woujld have to consider that the interference was not due to WFAN operating outside of their NRSC Mask, but in the receivers inablility to filter signals from legal broadcasters.

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/guywire/gw-08-04-04.shtml

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

My daughter just graduated from a college in Worchester Mass and we were up there a few weeks ago for her graduation.

Congrats to you and your daughter, but there's no "h" in Worcester.

what radio was being used.

The noise was noted on a GE clock radio and a Sony boombox. Best frequency response (the Sony) is about 4.3 kHz.

If for instance it contained a wide band filter (12.5 khz or so), one woujld have to consider that the interference was not due to WFAN operating outside of their NRSC Mask, but in the receivers inablility to filter signals from legal broadcasters.

The only signal even close to 680/WRKO in my neck of the woods is 650/WSRO in Ashland MA, but they have no signal at my house (250 W-D, 9W-N, N-DA). According to Doug Vernier's ZipSignal software, in my town the signal strengths are:

WRKO-D: 82.71 mV/m
WRKO-N: 98.45 mV/m
WSRO-D: 0.79 mV/m

 

[Mike Walker]

Geez, no wonder they want to restrict am frequency response to 5khz. The irony is that those of us with the best radios will get the worst sound (most interference from iboc). That's what the emotional side of me says, but again...I haven't heard an AM HD station, so I'm trying to keep an open mind (WBT Charlotte should be HD this summer. I'll know then).

 

[R.F. Burns]

My daughter just graduated from a college in Worchester Mass and we were up there a few weeks ago for her graduation.

Congrats to you and your daughter, but there's no "h" in Worcester.

what radio was being used.

The noise was noted on a GE clock radio and a Sony boombox. Best frequency response (the Sony) is about 4.3 kHz.

If for instance it contained a wide band filter (12.5 khz or so), one woujld have to consider that the interference was not due to WFAN operating outside of their NRSC Mask, but in the receivers inablility to filter signals from legal broadcasters.

The only signal even close to 680/WRKO in my neck of the woods is 650/WSRO in Ashland MA, but they have no signal at my house (250 W-D, 9W-N, N-DA). According to Doug Vernier's ZipSignal software, in my town the signal strengths are:

WRKO-D: 82.71 mV/m
WRKO-N: 98.45 mV/m
WSRO-D: 0.79 mV/m

Can you post a sample? If indeed you are eceiving IBOC inerference might I suggest you contact Mark Olkowski, who is the head of engineering for CBS Radio in NY. I'm sure he'd like to hear about your findings and either prove or disprove them. If the interference complaint is real I'm sure it willl be dealt with.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

My daughter just graduated from a college in Worchester Mass and we were up there a few weeks ago for her graduation.

Congrats to you and your daughter, but there's no "h" in Worcester.

what radio was being used.

The noise was noted on a GE clock radio and a Sony boombox. Best frequency response (the Sony) is about 4.3 kHz.

If for instance it contained a wide band filter (12.5 khz or so), one woujld have to consider that the interference was not due to WFAN operating outside of their NRSC Mask, but in the receivers inablility to filter signals from legal broadcasters.

The only signal even close to 680/WRKO in my neck of the woods is 650/WSRO in Ashland MA, but they have no signal at my house (250 W-D, 9W-N, N-DA). According to Doug Vernier's ZipSignal software, in my town the signal strengths are:

WRKO-D: 82.71 mV/m
WRKO-N: 98.45 mV/m
WSRO-D: 0.79 mV/m

Can you post a sample? If indeed you are eceiving IBOC inerference might I suggest you contact Mark Olkowski, who is the head of engineering for CBS Radio in NY. I'm sure he'd like to hear about your findings and either prove or disprove them. If the interference complaint is real I'm sure it willl be dealt with.

Or ignored, denied, and rationalized away as so many of the other complaints about HD radio have been.
Even if you can break through the HD radio interference denial barrier (doubtful), you will be told that you should "learn to live with it", "it's the price of progress", "it's the wave of the future for radio", "that's the way it was approved by the FCC", or (the best of all), it's just "thinning the herd of cripples".

 

[R.F. Burns]

My daughter just graduated from a college in Worchester Mass and we were up there a few weeks ago for her graduation.

Congrats to you and your daughter, but there's no "h" in Worcester.

what radio was being used.

The noise was noted on a GE clock radio and a Sony boombox. Best frequency response (the Sony) is about 4.3 kHz.

If for instance it contained a wide band filter (12.5 khz or so), one woujld have to consider that the interference was not due to WFAN operating outside of their NRSC Mask, but in the receivers inablility to filter signals from legal broadcasters.

The only signal even close to 680/WRKO in my neck of the woods is 650/WSRO in Ashland MA, but they have no signal at my house (250 W-D, 9W-N, N-DA). According to Doug Vernier's ZipSignal software, in my town the signal strengths are:

WRKO-D: 82.71 mV/m
WRKO-N: 98.45 mV/m
WSRO-D: 0.79 mV/m

Can you post a sample? If indeed you are eceiving IBOC inerference might I suggest you contact Mark Olkowski, who is the head of engineering for CBS Radio in NY. I'm sure he'd like to hear about your findings and either prove or disprove them. If the interference complaint is real I'm sure it willl be dealt with.

Or ignored, denied, and rationalized away as so many of the other complaints about HD radio have been.
Even if you can break through the HD radio interference denial barrier (doubtful), you will be told that you should "learn to live with it", "it's the price of progress", "it's the wave of the future for radio", "that's the way it was approved by the FCC", or (the best of all), it's just "thinning the herd of cripples".

And what di you base your comments on? They could be considered defamation y'know? CBS isn't interested in breaking any laws. It's a legitimate corporation and IF a NY station operating at 660 Khz running its IBOC at 500 watts is causing harmful interference to a station operating on it's second harmonic some 200 miles to the north east, there is a major problem. Unfortunatley WRKO is very directional to the east and they are inaudible in the NY metro area 99% of the time. What's interesting is that WBZ which is directional to the west and runs Iboc causes absolutley no interference to WEPN which is second harmonic to 1030. Also WBZ causes no interference to WINS, again second harmonic to WBZ and WBZ being directional is putting more power ERP into NY than WFAN being non D is putting into Boston. You can talk about the efficiency of a ground wave signal at 660 vrs 1030, but again WBZ causes NO interference to any NY station and it can be heard in NY weakly throught the day. I wish I knew why this is a one way problem. The only way this could be would be if there is a technical problem on High Island.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

Well, sorry to disappoint, but I tried it again last evening before sunset, and the IBOC noise is now gone. I contacted WRKO engineering, and they haven't made any changes, so the whole thing is a mystery to me. I tuned my Sony to 1020 kHz, to make sure I was hearing the IBOC carriers and not something else, and they were there from WBZ. But on WRKO they're now gone (WRKO is not using HD-R yet).

BTW, WRKO is not directional to the east. It has a minor null to the east, and a major one to the west (they protect KNBR).

 

[R.F. Burns]

Well, sorry to disappoint, but I tried it again last evening before sunset, and the IBOC noise is now gone. I contacted WRKO engineering, and they haven't made any changes, so the whole thing is a mystery to me. I tuned my Sony to 1020 kHz, to make sure I was hearing the IBOC carriers and not something else, and they were there from WBZ. But on WRKO they're now gone (WRKO is not using HD-R yet).

BTW, WRKO is not directional to the east. It has a minor null to the east, and a major one to the west (they protect KNBR).

Well they have no signal going west, or south west, so the 50 KW has to be going somewhere. Without the engineering maps I can only guess. I will talk with a friend who was WHDH's engineer yeas ago and ask him where WRKO sends most of its RF.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I will talk with a friend who was WHDH's engineer yeas ago and ask him where WRKO sends most of its RF.

You can see it for yourself.

Daytime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2146.pdf
Nighttime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2147.pdf

The transmitter site is in Burlington, about ten miles northwest of Boston.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I will talk with a friend who was WHDH's engineer yeas ago and ask him where WRKO sends most of its RF.

You can see it for yourself.

Daytime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2146.pdf
Nighttime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2147.pdf

The transmitter site is in Burlington, about ten miles northwest of Boston.

So what I see is that the signal is being transmitted north, north east & south, southeast. That basically means the south of the transmitter the signal is going out to sea, because Boston is east of other more southern US locations. To me, whether the signal is aimed east or south east, it has the same effect. Most of the signal is feeding the fish. To the north, I'm sure the signal is quite good along the border and into Canada.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

I will talk with a friend who was WHDH's engineer yeas ago and ask him where WRKO sends most of its RF.

You can see it for yourself.

Daytime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2146.pdf
Nighttime: http://www.fcc.gov/ftp/Bureaus/MB/Databases/AM_DA_patterns/115322-2147.pdf

The transmitter site is in Burlington, about ten miles northwest of Boston.

So what I see is that the signal is being transmitted north, north east & south, southeast. That basically means the south of the transmitter the signal is going out to sea, because Boston is east of other more southern US locations. To me, whether the signal is aimed east or south east, it has the same effect. Most of the signal is feeding the fish. To the north, I'm sure the signal is quite good along the border and into Canada.

You're not getting the geography right. The site is northwest of Boston. South of the transmitter are most of Boston's affluent suburbs along the Route 128 ring, and even the south coastal cities like Fall River and New Bedford get a very good signal from 680. With minor lobes heading toward Boston (all that's needed, because it's not that far away), in many ways the Burlington site is an ideal location for that signal. The site was put up in the late 1940s just as Boston's population was spreading out into the suburbs. The timing couldn't have been better.