Where's The Rock on CHR?

[Starbucks]

I'm really not sure this is true - the whole Alternative/Indie movement is completely teen-based - the problem I think is there is a huge split in musical taste between kids that like Indie and kids that like Kesha and Katy Perry, and I think CHR PDs are afraid to mix the two together

>>>>Bad analogy. That's a complete niche format all together. Call it a sub specie from a sub specie from another sub specie. It's compared to teens who completely distance themselves back in the late 70's who listen to Rock and hated Disco.

Yeah 70s rock was such a tiny movement : Are you seriously in the music business?

>>>Indie/Alternative was a movement that evolved from the clubs and colleges. And evolved into it's own Radio format in the early 90's to be later accepted on certain mainstream markets with artist like REM, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. That was the decade of the genre.
70's Rock was part of mainstream Top 40/CHR and AOR. It was no genre back then. Just about every Classic Rock tune you hear today was CHR and heard on AM top 40 radio. There was no movement. There's no math on that one.

 

[atlantaboy]

It's true that 90s/early 2000s bands like Lifehouse and the Goo Goo Dolls don't appeal to teens, but I think it has less to do with teens not liking rock and more to do with teens not liking music that their parents listen to


>>>>Lifehouse and Goo Goo Dolls are not that old and they are still currently active. The parents who listen or grew up with those bands would be raising children maybe as old as 4 years old the most if that. Do the math. (LOL)

LOL the Goo Goo Dolls and Lifehouse get huge 25-55 numbers, and a lot of those listeners have teenage kids

LOL that's why they're staples at Hot AC and AC - do the math :

What the hell do you think I said. 25-55...is their a huge audience. These groups only have been around since early 2000's, and the kids who grew up on them in high school are now only in their early to mid 20's. Which makes them lean currently toward Hot AC. People in their 30's or 40's or older have teenagers that lean obviously toward CHR. But i wasn't comparing them.

The Goo Goo Dolls were big on CHR from 1995-1999 - people graduating high school in 1996 would now be 33 years old, and would have teenage kids
With Lifehouse, You And Me wasn't as big in high schools as it was with people in their 20s (in 2005), and most of those people are now over 30 years old, with teenage kids

So once again, I'd say that most teens aren't into the Goo Goo Dolls and Lifehouse cause IMO they don't want to listen to the same music their parents listen to

 

[atlantaboy]

I'm really not sure this is true - the whole Alternative/Indie movement is completely teen-based - the problem I think is there is a huge split in musical taste between kids that like Indie and kids that like Kesha and Katy Perry, and I think CHR PDs are afraid to mix the two together

>>>>Bad analogy. That's a complete niche format all together. Call it a sub specie from a sub specie from another sub specie. It's compared to teens who completely distance themselves back in the late 70's who listen to Rock and hated Disco.

Yeah 70s rock was such a tiny movement : Are you seriously in the music business?

>>>Indie/Alternative was a movement that evolved from the clubs and colleges. And evolved into it's own Radio format in the early 90's to be later accepted on certain mainstream markets with artist like REM, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. That was the decade of the genre.
70's Rock was part of mainstream Top 40/CHR and AOR. It was no genre back then. Just about every Classic Rock tune you hear today was CHR and heard on AM top 40 radio. There was no movement. There's no math on that one.

Again, I have no clue what you're talking about...

"Indie" is a new movement which has gained mainstream appeal with teens in the last few years (not in the 90s - that was simply the "Alternative" movement) - When people refer to "Indie", they're talking about Cold War Kids, Mumford & Sons, Florence & The Machine, Phoenix, Broken Bells, Fitz & The Tantrums, etc. - not bands like the Chili Peppers and R. E. M.

The statement that "every Classic Rock tune you hear today was CHR" back in the 70s is completely false - I'd almost say that a majority of 70s Classic Rock never touched Top 40 radio in the 70s (or barely scraped the bottom half of the chart)

Led Zeppelin had ONE Top 10 CHR hit - Whole Lotta Love, and just a handful of minor chart entries
Pink Floyd had Another Brick In The Wall peak at #1 and Money peak at #13 (and that's it - no other chart entries)
AC/DC never cracked the CHR Top 40 until 1991

 

[CHRles]

Atlantaboy, I agree with some of the things you say, and it's nice to see here people displaying knowledge and a civil conversation.
With regards to the word Indie, I've been familiar with it going back to the 1980s when a lot of left of center Alternative Rock and New Wave bands were signed to Indie or independent labels. For example, the whole Manchester wave (or Madchester) that featured the music of Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, The Charlatans, and others were all considered part of the Indie movement.
This is loooong before Cold War Kids or Florence & The Machine, and other acts you'd mentioned.

 

[Starbucks]

It's true that 90s/early 2000s bands like Lifehouse and the Goo Goo Dolls don't appeal to teens, but I think it has less to do with teens not liking rock and more to do with teens not liking music that their parents listen to


>>>>Lifehouse and Goo Goo Dolls are not that old and they are still currently active. The parents who listen or grew up with those bands would be raising children maybe as old as 4 years old the most if that. Do the math. (LOL)

LOL the Goo Goo Dolls and Lifehouse get huge 25-55 numbers, and a lot of those listeners have teenage kids

LOL that's why they're staples at Hot AC and AC - do the math :

What the hell do you think I said. 25-55...is their a huge audience. These groups only have been around since early 2000's, and the kids who grew up on them in high school are now only in their early to mid 20's. Which makes them lean currently toward Hot AC. People in their 30's or 40's or older have teenagers that lean obviously toward CHR. But i wasn't comparing them.

The Goo Goo Dolls were big on CHR from 1995-1999 - people graduating high school in 1996 would now be 33 years old, and would have teenage kids
With Lifehouse, You And Me wasn't as big in high schools as it was with people in their 20s (in 2005), and most of those people are now over 30 years old, with teenage kids

So once again, I'd say that most teens aren't into the Goo Goo Dolls and Lifehouse cause IMO they don't want to listen to the same music their parents listen to

Yes and No. It was the same situation by the late 70's. My parents which were brought up in the pre-rock era right before the 55' time line of rock and pop. Let's say Johnny Ray good....Elvis , Little Richard bad. They hated what I had on the radio as I grew up in the late 60's, 70's...it wasn't till the end of the 70's my parents started liking things that I was listening too. And being in radio, I noticed other parents of that era enjoying Barry Manilow, Dan Fogelberg, Bee Gees, Abba, "Island In The Streams". (Hey they were considered Top 40 in those days.) Not standard today. Then the backlash or revolt came around the early mid 80's when the Beastie Boys, Run DMC, Salt N Peppa, and even the new wavers and Funk came around. Even us 60-70's rockers were despising the Grand Master Flashes and many of the early punk rock college bands. So out came the genres and the declining CHR formats by the end of the 80's.
You can't say every high schooler hates Lifehouse, or the Goo Goo Dolls. They still get airplay on CHR or chart. Maybe not as high as they once did. That's why there's HOT AC. It's a carry over. Which you did not have in the 60's early 70's. Top 40 back then... you eithier charted got airplay or nothing.

 

[Starbucks]

I'm really not sure this is true - the whole Alternative/Indie movement is completely teen-based - the problem I think is there is a huge split in musical taste between kids that like Indie and kids that like Kesha and Katy Perry, and I think CHR PDs are afraid to mix the two together

>>>>Bad analogy. That's a complete niche format all together. Call it a sub specie from a sub specie from another sub specie. It's compared to teens who completely distance themselves back in the late 70's who listen to Rock and hated Disco.

Yeah 70s rock was such a tiny movement : Are you seriously in the music business?

>>>Indie/Alternative was a movement that evolved from the clubs and colleges. And evolved into it's own Radio format in the early 90's to be later accepted on certain mainstream markets with artist like REM, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. That was the decade of the genre.
70's Rock was part of mainstream Top 40/CHR and AOR. It was no genre back then. Just about every Classic Rock tune you hear today was CHR and heard on AM top 40 radio. There was no movement. There's no math on that one.

Again, I have no clue what you're talking about...

"Indie" is a new movement which has gained mainstream appeal with teens in the last few years (not in the 90s - that was simply the "Alternative" movement) - When people refer to "Indie", they're talking about Cold War Kids, Mumford & Sons, Florence & The Machine, Phoenix, Broken Bells, Fitz & The Tantrums, etc. - not bands like the Chili Peppers and R. E. M.

The statement that "every Classic Rock tune you hear today was CHR" back in the 70s is completely false - I'd almost say that a majority of 70s Classic Rock never touched Top 40 radio in the 70s (or barely scraped the bottom half of the chart)

Led Zeppelin had ONE Top 10 CHR hit - Whole Lotta Love, and just a handful of minor chart entries
Pink Floyd had Another Brick In The Wall peak at #1 and Money peak at #13 (and that's it - no other chart entries)
AC/DC never cracked the CHR Top 40 until 1991

Oh really. First of all, how old are you? Your gonna tell me Grand Funk, never had a number 1 song on AM. Led Zepplin had only 1 hit on AM. Immigrant Song, Whole Lotta Love, and the non single "Stairway to Heaven" was never played on a KHJ, KFRC, WLS, or never had top airplay. Deep Purple , Thin Lizzy, etc never had hits on AM or CHR? If your not old enough to remember, please let's not continue this post.

 

[Starbucks]

Atlantaboy, I agree with some of the things you say, and it's nice to see here people displaying knowledge and a civil conversation.
With regards to the word Indie, I've been familiar with it going back to the 1980s when a lot of left of center Alternative Rock and New Wave bands were signed to Indie or independent labels. For example, the whole Manchester wave (or Madchester) that featured the music of Inspiral Carpets, Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, The Charlatans, and others were all considered part of the Indie movement.
This is loooong before Cold War Kids or Florence & The Machine, and other acts you'd mentioned.

Thank you for taking that part up. I'm glad you explained to him what an indie is. I forgot to reply to that one due to feelin like I'm arguing with a 13 year old.

 

[atlantaboy]

So, Starbucks, you were saying that only a tiny fraction of teens in the 70s were into rock and not disco, and that most 70s rock was played on CHRs - I have no clue how old you are (I'm 28 btw - I've kept the same username for years) - but it obviously doesn't matter, because all you have to do is look up 70s CHR stats and see that about half of the huge 70s rock songs barely charted, or did not chart, on CHR

I could make a long list for you of 70s rock hits that didn't chart (or barely charted) on CHR, but that would be pretty time-consuming

I'm not sure what station you listened to back in the 70s, but if it was a Top 40 station, I can tell you that you didn't hear much Zeppelin on it

Again, if you insist on saying that 70s rock and disco was completely mixed together on Top 40 radio back then (and in the tastes of teen audiences), I'll go to the CHR archives website and list for you the CHR peaks of various huge 70s rock hits...but again, I really don't want to take the time to do that

And getting back to the point of all this - there is a STRONG Indie/Alternative movement among teens of this generation (maybe the term was used decades ago, but it's got a new slant to it now), and the reason CHRs are reluctant to add it into the mix is because of the disparity in musical tastes between teens that love Mumford & Sons and teens that love Kesha

 

[Slinky]

Again, if you insist on saying that 70s rock and disco was completely mixed together on Top 40 radio back then (and in the tastes of teen audiences), I'll go to the CHR archives website and list for you the CHR peaks of various huge 70s rock hits...but again, I really don't want to take the time to do that

The 70's are a tough time to do much chart analysis in- it was decades before monitored airplay and top 40 stations jumped on rock songs at very different times depending on their competing FM progressive stations. Take the different timelines of impacting songs, and the fact that pop stations didn't correctly report their airplay anyway, and you and Starbucks could very well both be right. Some rock songs didn't chart yet still got significant airplay on the stations Starbucks mentioned.

 

[Slinky]

And getting back to the point of all this - there is a STRONG Indie/Alternative movement among teens of this generation (maybe the term was used decades ago, but it's got a new slant to it now), and the reason CHRs are reluctant to add it into the mix is because of the disparity in musical tastes between teens that love Mumford & Sons and teens that love Kesha

But the Mumford and Sons audience is much smaller than the Ke$ha audience, the "indie" teen listeners of today don't listen to much top 40 radio, and they probably can't be convinced otherwise.

The only place you see Mumford and Songs working next to Ke$ha is in small markets where there's not much choice, or on Sirius Hits 1, who is programming to a very different audience than your typical Pop station. Even KBKS isn't playing much "indie"- they're playing more teen pop-punk and similar acts (A Rocket To The Moon, Paramore).

You've also got a lot more fragmentation in Rock- people who like folk-rock but not teen punk and vice versa. Tough to please everyone in that arena but everyone dances when the new Usher comes on.

 

[Wildstyle K]

Wow guys, obsessed much?
I too can talk about some nephew, or some aunt, or some neighbor's dogs, or how 900 friends of mine on Facebook really like diversity in their music.

As a matter of fact, my dog listens to KZON 101.5 JamZ. TRUE STORY!
I have a large boombox in the back yard and he sleeps next to it, and is actually more acceptive of having to be outside - when the radio is on. Sometimes I put it on KPKX because it has more variety, but I mainly have it on KZON.

 

[xyz]

Rock ( and Country, for that matter ) set sail from CHR for greener pastures 40+ years ago. GG Dolls and Lifehouse are to "rock" what Bryant Gumbel is to Gangsta Rap. Dance music was, is and ever will be a mainstay of CHR. I guess we must all learn to deal with it somehow...

 

[Starbucks]

So, Starbucks, you were saying that only a tiny fraction of teens in the 70s were into rock and not disco, and that most 70s rock was played on CHRs - I have no clue how old you are (I'm 28 btw - I've kept the same username for years) - but it obviously doesn't matter, because all you have to do is look up 70s CHR stats and see that about half of the huge 70s rock songs barely charted, or did not chart, on CHR

>>>>>No...not a tiny fraction. Where did you come up with that? By the end of the 70's ..it was more like 50-50. Name me the rock hits that haven't charted. If they haven't charted...it's because they were never hits. Yes there were popular rock tracks that are played on todays "Classic Rock" like "Suffragette City". But that was never released on Top 40 due to the times and the gradual development of David Bowie to the mainstream airwaves. And it depends what you consider Rock.
I have put together an Internet Rock Hits format mainly of 70's -80's....still not streaming yet...and I came up with almost 1300 titles.

I could make a long list for you of 70s rock hits that didn't chart (or barely charted) on CHR, but that would be pretty time-consuming

Where are you looking for as far as stats concerned?....Barnes and Nobles?


I'm not sure what station you listened to back in the 70s, but if it was a Top 40 station, I can tell you that you didn't hear much Zeppelin on it

>>>>>Oh Really...when you can prove to me at 28 years old to every listener, every DJ that was born, living , and breathing the radio scene in 74'...... how many times we heard , or played, or partied to "Stairway to Heaven" to the edited and LP version on our beloved AM Top 40 stations....then you should not post here. Your a minor, your too young. Let me talk to your mother. She could probabaly tell you how many times she heard it. And this song was never released in a single. But it charted on every major market local playlist...with an asterisk next to it.

Again, if you insist on saying that 70s rock and disco was completely mixed together on Top 40 radio back then (and in the tastes of teen audiences), I'll go to the CHR archives website and list for you the CHR peaks of various huge 70s rock hits...but again, I really don't want to take the time to do that.

>>>>Yes it was ...Mr. 28 years old. Now you have me wondering if I would want to be your age again. I thought the women in your times were discouraging.

And getting back to the point of all this - there is a STRONG Indie/Alternative movement among teens of this generation (maybe the term was used decades ago, but it's got a new slant to it now), and the reason CHRs are reluctant to add it into the mix is because of the disparity in musical tastes between teens that love Mumford & Sons and teens that love Kesha.

>>>That makes sense...and that's why (Please refer to my first post of this thread) on why there is a HOT AC.

 

[atlantaboy]

So, let's look at the I-Tunes charts this week

Excluding all the Glee Cast songs (and combining F** You and Forget You),
#7 - Mumford & Sons "The Cave"
#9 - Avril Lavigne "What The Hell"
#12 - Christina Perri "Jar Of Hearts"
#15 - Adele "Rolling In The Deep"
#19 - Mumford & Sons "Little Lion Man"

So I guess all these CHRs aren't playing rock (or rock-influenced songs) cause it's not popular in 2011 :

Lol sorry but it's almost like a pop/rhythmic-CHR conspiracy right now - and the sad thing is it's convinced a whole lot of people on this board that Alt/pop/rock isn't popular

And BTW these downloads aren't being driven by adults, so this whole "people under 25 like pop/dance, and people over 25 like rock" thing is ridiculous

 

[CHRles]

Avril is not Rock, but she is getting a lot of CHR support.
Adele might become a hit at the format.
Mumford & Sons are nowhere near the Top 40 on the Billboard hot 100 nor the Digital Downloads chart:
http://www.billboard.com/#/charts/digital-songs?begin=1&order=position

The Christina Perri song is too much of a Modern AC record to be impacting most CHR/Pop stations in 2011

The big question is whether Arcade Fire will make it to CHR this year.

BTW, 98.7 in L.A. is a lot more relevant to younger CHR demos than a Bright AC station like 104.3 My FM.

 

[Dkampy]

Perhaps not now...but I do remember seeing Mumford & Sons charting on Billboard digital downloads within the top 40. Like it or not Mumford & Sons are rather popular right now.

 

[CHRles]

Perhaps not now...but I do remember seeing Mumford & Sons charting on Billboard digital downloads within the top 40. Like it or not Mumford & Sons are rather popular right now.

I like them, and if enough 18-34 year old females who first and foremost listen to CHR radio will be interested in them than you could see more stations picking them up.
Like it or not they are the ones that help shape what you hear on CHR radio.
Additionally, it doesnt seem like Mumford & Sons is a priority at right now at CHR from their label's standpoint.

 

[Starbucks]

And that's why certain artist aren't on both charts, or barely rank as high as they should on both charts. Because they are marketed for certain age brackets. The Beatles came out...they were never marketed for certain age brackets. Yes obviously mostly young people (stereotyped at 29 and younger) loved and bought their records, and the crowd over 30 hated them. But Capital Records and radio stations played an artist hoping every age from 2-95 would buy them. And that's how Rock or R&B radio was operated.
The Beatles battled Louie Armstong in 64' for the top of the charts. People just wanted to hear good songs and hit records. Now...you put together's CHR, HOT AC, AC's chart in one...and you have CHR/Top 40 radio as it once was in 64.
Yes it's 2011 (which i'll get replied with) I know that...but the point is no matter how popular Mumford and Sons are....if was 1964 again with their hit record..they would've been on the CHR charts and stations. But there's too much out their today to consolidated in to one.

 

[CHRles]

When Country stars get enough interest from the Pop audience than you eventually see them cross over as was the case with Taylor Swift.
What many of you continue to forget, or ignore, is that a growing number of 25-44 year old females who listen to Hot A/C stations are much more, or just as much, into Rhythmic Pop than they are into Modern A/C. That's why so many Hot A/Cs have been adding more and more Rhythmic hits to ther playlists in recent years.
So anyone who thinks it's just the teens, or just the college kids, or just non-ethnic whites, is completely and totally wrong.

New Rock acts continue to be a force with a lot of the younger set that does not listen much to CHR, that hates Britney and Lady Gaga. But if these kids are the majority of the folks who like Rock music there's no point in catering to them on CHR if the actual CHR audience doesn't care much for them right now.

Again, PDs and MDs should never rely on their personal tastes, and can't just rely on their gut on whether their song is a hit or not. They have to understand first and foremost who the CHR/Pop audience is, what's testing well with them, what are they requesting, and so on. If by and large it's Rhythmic flavored Pop, with all of their primary demos, then that's what you're going to hear the most. If the audience seems to suddenly be into Colbie Cailat, or Paramore, then oftentimes PDs will give those artists a slot on their playlist.

 

[xyz]

Last few posts have a very realistic handle on CHR. One subject that might be considered is context. The '64 Beatles/Louie Armstrong CHR had no real competition beside the other CHR in town. No cassette, 8 track, MP3, FM, satellite, CD, internet (including downloads, peer to peer, net stations, etc.), cable music channels, videos, HD, Bluetooth, smartphones...