Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[michael hagerty]

And I almost never hear any of these on whatever passes for "classic hits" radio these days, so I feel vindicated. You've got to go to classic country radio to hear those anymore. And that is where they belong.

Just look at the 16 songs that hit #1 in '81. How many of them are played today? Maybe 4 or 5, if you're lucky to catch one of them on the radio. The only one we hear to death of the 16, is "Jessie's Girl". The country crossovers I can understand, but the regular pop singles? Come on. This is the prime demo period for classic hits radio.

What it says is that the majority of #1 records 32 years ago have about as much appeal to the target listener today as "Elvira" did to Firepoint all along.

 

[landtuna]

First, how many of this week's Top 10 songs have you heard more than once? How many have you heard even once? Since you've said before that you're not only not a CHR listener but really only will listen to two (three now, with the KOY stream) stations despite there being 9 in the Phoenix area that play some 60s-80s hits, I'm wondering what the condemnation of talent in this week's top 10 is based on.

Until last year I had a young 20-something (daughter) living at home so I heard quite enough current "hits" - more than enough times to convince myself that most are (musically) trash.

As for your 9 stations in the Phoenix area that play 60-80's hits.....those you mentioned play a majority of songs post-1985 which is my personal cut-off. I'm not interested in listening to late 80's, 90's and 2000's to get an occasional Oldie.

 

[michael hagerty]

I have a lot of disdain for the pop music of today, not only because it isn't very good (for all the reasons I have given in other posts) but also because the artists are far more popular as video icons and behaving-badly spoiled brats.

Video icons? Practically every act with a hit since the dawn of MTV more than 30 years ago can be put in that category.

Badly-behaving spoiled brats? Jim Morrison. Janis Joplin. Grace Slick. The Who. The Rolling Stones. Led Zeppelin. Bad behavior and wretched excess among suddenly wealthy stars in their 20s is nothing new. And frankly, I'm having a hard time thinking of a current act that could even touch those guys in terms of substance-fueled "f you, I'm a star" acts.

 

[oldies76]

Radio isn't insisting on anything, Oldies, but you're insisting that radio should play songs these people don't care about, and should never have stopped playing them...as though that would do anything other than increase the apathy and/or dislike felt about the records and the medium that played them.

So basically, you are counting out the other 85% - 90% of the charting hits that are unplayed as all being disliked by the listening population for a classic hits station.

You guys make it sound that all of the unplayed hits that supposedly test negative are disliked by everyone, and that is simply not true. Everyone has their favorites, and many of those favorites are never or rarely heard on radio, today!

If you were an average listener, you'd wish some of your favorites were aired also. Multiply that by the other millions of average listeners cringing to hear a song from way back when and see what results you'd get. You would be absolutely surprised.

 

[landtuna]

Video icons? Practically every act with a hit since the dawn of MTV more than 30 years ago can be put in that category.

Exactly correct! and that is why I am not fond of music post-MTV (early 80's).

Badly-behaving spoiled brats? Jim Morrison. Janis Joplin. Grace Slick. The Who. The Rolling Stones. Led Zeppelin. Bad behavior and wretched excess among suddenly wealthy stars in their 20s is nothing new. And frankly, I'm having a hard time thinking of a current act that could even touch those guys in terms of substance-fueled "f you, I'm a star" acts.

The people and groups you mention were all primarily 60's acts and I'm sure we can all agree those were very different times. Rebellion was dominate in the music industry and in society in general and drug use was one of the most rebellious acts. A lot of those musicians paid for their excesses with their lives. But musicians in general don't tend to live long lives - for whatever reason.

 

[michael hagerty]

A comparison of music now and then is essentially the same as for movies now and then. Moviegoers today can appreciate all the technical advantages of Dolby stereo, wide-screen, Technicolor and CGI but they largely miss real professional actors and engaging dialog. There are a few today that are equal in talent to those making first run movies of years past but not many. And the reason is the same as in music...

The target demo for both are generally too young to appreciate the history or have valid comparisons so they think today's drivel is good.

Given that the target demo for CHR is, as I mentioned in an earlier post, 18-34 (average 26) and for mass entertainment 18-49 (average 33), you're being extremely condescending and insulting to millions of grown adults who simply have preferences different than your own.

 

[michael hagerty]

Radio isn't insisting on anything, Oldies, but you're insisting that radio should play songs these people don't care about, and should never have stopped playing them...as though that would do anything other than increase the apathy and/or dislike felt about the records and the medium that played them.

So basically, you are counting out the other 85% - 90% of the charting hits that are unplayed as all being disliked by the listening population for a classic hits station.

You guys make it sound that all of the unplayed hits that supposedly test negative are disliked by everyone, and that is simply not true.

I feel like I'm saying this for the tenth time but...

No, Oldies...we're not saying no one likes them. But that a significant enough percentage dislikes them to negatively impact ratings.

 

[Thomps2525]

So what you're telling me is that I'm never again going to hear Ragtime Cowboy Joe by the Chipmunks?

 

[oldies76]

I feel like I'm saying this for the tenth time but...

No, Oldies...we're not saying no one likes them. But that a significant enough percentage dislikes them to negatively impact ratings.

What 75%, 85%, 99%....

10th time or 101st time, I will disagree, sorry.

 

[michael hagerty]

I feel like I'm saying this for the tenth time but...

No, Oldies...we're not saying no one likes them. But that a significant enough percentage dislikes them to negatively impact ratings.

What 75%, 85%, 99%....

10th time or 101st time, I will disagree, sorry.

As I said back in October, if 33% of the audience finds a record a tune-out, you risk losing one-third of your audience if you play it.

Let me try it this way:

Say you want a cola drink. Coke, Pepsi, RC, doesn't matter...you're not picky (apart from that it has to be a cola)...just thirsty.

You go into a cafe, and tell the waitress "I'd like a cola, please."

And the waitress comes back to the table and puts a glass of Fanta Grape in front of you.

You say: "I'm sorry, there's some mistake. I'd like a cola, please."

And the waitress says: "That's fine, honey. But first you have to drink this Fanta Grape. After that, a Dad's Root Beer, a Diet Mountain Dew and a Hansen's Cream Soda. Then I'll bring you a cola and you can drink it."

"But...I don't like any of those things. I just like cola. And I'm not picky within colas...but it has to be a cola."

"Well, that's fine. But Mr. Firepoint over there at table 12, he likes the grape soda. And Mr. Landtuna, he's a Dad's Root Beer guy. Mr. Rewind loves his Diet Mountain Dew. And the Hansen's Cream Soda...well, that's my favorite. And we're all drinking one of each whether we like it or not."

Now, if you're walking into a store to buy a can, bottle, six-pack or case of soda to take with you, having all those choices is fine. Because nobody's making you drink anyone else's favorite drink. But radio...we're all drinking from that one big garden hose and only one thing comes out of it at a time.

That's what you're asking radio stations to do...put songs in front of their audience that a significant portion of the audience has told them they don't want to hear, and using airtime that could be spent playing songs that the audience has told them they all agree they like.

 

[oldies76]

That's what you're asking radio stations to do...put songs in front of their audience that a significant portion of the audience has told them they don't want to hear, and using airtime that could be spent playing songs that the audience has told them they all agree they like.

I get the point you're trying to say (and the cola example is good) but I'm not saying just play all the "negatives" or the "deeper cuts"...Play the hits, that's great. But all I'm asking is to insert every so often (maybe once or twice an hour) or once in every 10-12 cuts, a song that is rarely played. Like a "lost oldie" or insert them in a weekend special. But to totally ignore them, knowing they were hits just does not fly with me.

Mix things up a bit, add a little variety, make things interesting.

The thing which is also very misleading to the public is when a station creates a weekend special (such as the top 500 songs of all time), all they are really doing is juggling their playlist in a way to make it sound something new and different, when in fact it's just the same music played, just in a different order.

Well Mr. Hagerty, as you can see, it's just business vs. listeners. You and DE have your views and others have another point. Let's try and put it to rest. But as long as the prime target demo and 55+ aren't being represented properly with music selection, these discussions will continue to pop up many times more in the months and years ahead.

 

[Biondi4Mayor]

That's what you're asking radio stations to do...put songs in front of their audience that a significant portion of the audience has told them they don't want to hear, and using airtime that could be spent playing songs that the audience has told them they all agree they like.

I get the point you're trying to say (and the cola example is good) but I'm not saying just play all the "negatives" or the "deeper cuts"...Play the hits, that's great. But all I'm asking is to insert every so often (maybe once or twice an hour) or once in every 10-12 cuts, a song that is rarely played. Like a "lost oldie" or insert them in a weekend special. But to totally ignore them, knowing they were hits just does not fly with me.

Mix things up a bit, add a little variety, make things interesting.

The thing which is also very misleading to the public is when a station creates a weekend special (such as the top 500 songs of all time), all they are really doing is juggling their playlist in a way to make it sound something new and different, when in fact it's just the same music played, just in a different order.

Well Mr. Hagerty, as you can see, it's just business vs. listeners. You and DE have your views and others have another point. Let's try and put it to rest. But as long as the prime target demo and 55+ aren't being represented properly with music selection, these discussions will continue to pop up many times more in the months and years ahead.

Been away for awhile so time to chime back in...

^^^^TOTALLY AGREE OLDIES!!!!!!!!!!!^^^^
I'm not looking for "obscurities" but I'd like to hear a BIG HIT every hour or so that isn't done to death. That's where I was going with my Honey Cone "Want Ad" example, which somehow go lost into "Mr. Big Stuff". I'll put up with the current trash state of classic hits if I know I'm getting a good one every hour or so.

As for testing, I still don't get it. I HIGHLY DOUBT that radio stations in every market test individually for their own area. Since radio is bent on greed, and it is all just run by a few HUGE companies, a review of classic hits stations by say CBS or some by Cumulus reveals that it is basically the same playlist over and over. We have a Chicago station that is not syndicated, but local AC, that mirrors a Milwaukee playlist song for song during the day. I know David will say that those songs "tested well'' but I don't buy that. If regional testing was done, then it would be fair to assume that some of the country crossovers would be found in more country areas and more black records in cities with a larger black population, but none of this is true.

How exactly are the "testing audience members" picked??? If you say that we are not a good sample because we are "fanatics" then do you really want people who don't know the station as well to be your guide? If people are only occasional listeners or have other interests, then I think it's an awful waste of money (as mentioned before that testing is expensive) to use their judgement.

BTW, just to throw this out there I'm in the 18-34 demo. Not exactly a norm, but far from the "fanatic" or "niche-member" that has been alluded to in this thread. The music is different from the "big band" or "crooners", so all of those comparisons are lousy. For example, JCPenney - a company trying to "reinvent" themselves to skew younger - used Mary Well's "My Guy" in a commercial over the last year. Obviously it "tested" well for them, so why don't I hear it on the radio? The music of this era is revolutionary - - - that's the point of rock and roll! So it shouldn't be written off and expected to fall off the wayside, it is reasonable for listeners to expect the format to be handled better.

Dissect that one!!! ^^^

 

[oldies76]

^^^^TOTALLY AGREE OLDIES!!!!!!!!!!!^^^^

Thank you.

I'm not looking for "obscurities" but I'd like to hear a BIG HIT every hour or so that isn't done to death.

I said the same thing....one or two "rarely played" hits, added in every 10-12 songs or so. Every song is playable today, it just has to be managed correctly.

I know David will say that those songs "tested well'' but I don't buy that.

Replication is what bothers me. They insist that a group of 100 or so music testees will represent the entire demographic base (listeners) for such station. How can people 100 testers, represent the other 500,000 listeners that never step foot into an auditorium? It's almost like: Our group of 100 will persuade the other 499,900 listeners in what music WE want them to hear. I don't buy that at all and never will.

BTW, just to throw this out there I'm in the 18-34 demo. Not exactly a norm, but far from the "fanatic" or "niche-member" that has been alluded to in this thread.

Good for you!!

 

[davideduardo]

Replication is what bothers me. They insist that a group of 100 or so music testees will represent the entire demographic base (listeners) for such station. How can people 100 testers, represent the other 500,000 listeners that never step foot into an auditorium? It's almost like: Our group of 100 will persuade the other 499,900 listeners in what music WE want them to hear. I don't buy that at all and never will.

"Replication" comes from the word "replicate."

"to make an exact copy of; reproduce. Ørepeat (a scientific experiment or trial) to obtain a consistent result. "

Replication is a process used to determine the viability of a sample. In short, if multiple samples of the same size produce the same results then the sample size is valid (within a determined percentage).

Replication studies have proven that music tests employing somewhere around 80 persons will replicate consistently. So you could do 160 people, 1,600 people or even 16,000 people and the results would not vary significantly.

Of course, a 100 person music test costs about $30,000 dollars. To test 1000 people would cost over a quarter of a million dollars, and 10,000 persons would cost over $2 million dollars.

So there is no reason, other than to make money for the research company and the recruiter, to sample more than about 100 persons.

(Mentioned before) If you look at the LA market, the top station has about a 5 share. The average number of Arbitron meters that are detecting KIIS at any given time is 5% of the PUR (Persons Using Radio... the folks with a radio turned on). Since the PUR 6-Mid Mon-Sun is about 10% of the population, then that 5% of the total meters is: 15 meters.

That's 15 meters on average at any given time detecting the #1 station in the #1 revenue market in the US. Nearly $50 million in ad revenues are placed on KIIS based on that average of 15 meters.

That makes a 100 person music test seem overly large.

 

[firepoint525]

Mister hagerty says that radio stations and advertisers aren't interested in teens the way they were in the 1960s-70s. He's probably right. In the '60s-70s we had Frankie Avalon, Bobby Rydell, Fabian, Paul Peterson, Shelly Fabares, Johnny Crawford, Leif Garrett, Shaun Cassidy, the Osmonds and the Monkees. In the 2000s we have Miley Cyrus, Justin Bieber, Demi Lovato, Cher Lloyd, Selena Gomez, Miranda Cosgrove, Willow Smith, Rachel Crow, One Direction and the Jonas Brothers.
Oh wait.....

I promise you they're only getting played if they test well with 18-34 females.

Probably explains why we got stuck with "Elvira" on what was supposedly "pop" radio back in the early '80s. :

Pop radio was always about playing the hits, wherever they came from. And "Elvira" by The Oak Ridge Boys (#1 Country, #5 Hot 100, #8 Adult Contemporary) was part of the boom in country crossovers spurred on by the film "Urban Cowboy", which was supposed to do for country what "Saturday Night Fever" did for disco.
The week "Elvira" peaked at #5 (July 25, 1981), Kenny Rogers' "I Don't Need You" was #6, Juice Newton's "Queen Of Hearts" was #14, Ronnie Milsap's "No Gettin' Over Me" was #16 and Roseanne Cash's "Seven Year Ache" was #22. Eddie Rabbitt's "Step By Step" was the second-highest debuting record on the Hot 100 at #66.

'Splains why 1981 was probably my least favorite year for music, at least during my teen years. And I almost never hear any of these on whatever passes for "classic hits" radio these days, so I feel vindicated. You've got to go to classic country radio to hear those anymore. And that is where they belong.

You don't hear them because they don't test well today. But millions of people bought them at the time. Their tastes have changed. It's exactly what we've been talking about here.

No, you might still hear them over stations like WSM-AM. But as I said, that's where they belonged all along. Interestingly enough, just a couple of years later, after the influnece of MTV was beginning to be felt, NONE of these folks could get heard over CHR anymore. And that, too, was as it should have been all along.

 

[firepoint525]

And I almost never hear any of these on whatever passes for "classic hits" radio these days, so I feel vindicated. You've got to go to classic country radio to hear those anymore. And that is where they belong.

Just look at the 16 songs that hit #1 in '81. How many of them are played today? Maybe 4 or 5, if you're lucky to catch one of them on the radio. The only one we hear to death of the 16, is "Jessie's Girl". The country crossovers I can understand, but the regular pop singles? Come on. This is the prime demo period for classic hits radio.

I agree with you there. I would love to hear Rick Springfield music OTHER than "Jessie's Girl."

 

[firepoint525]

If anything, I like MORE of the music from 1976 than I actually did IN 1976. My first 45 was "Let Your Love Flow" by the Bellamy Brothers, and it still gets played (on the radio) now. Also picked up Steve Miller Band 45s that year, as well as the Beach Boys and even the Beatles. Good times, for sure.

Yes they were. 1976 is the first year I can remember hearing those great songs on our car AM radio in Westport, CT as a kid. Heck, I even remember hearing "Disco Duck", "Afternoon Delight", "More More More" and others on the radio back then that summer! Don't remember the radio station, though.
I think my first 45 was purchased in early 1977....."Hotel California"

I'll give you this. I personally still like "Disco Duck." (I actually have TWO copies of it, one with the instrumental version on the B-side, and one with "Barely White" (a REALLY lame song!) on the b-side.) And some of the disdain heaped on "Disco Duck" since it was a hit has actually come from Rick Dees himself. He's a comic, so poking fun at things (even his own, as the case may be) is just what he does. But this is self-deprecating humor, so he is poking fun at himself, not at others. (Aside from that, most of his non-hits have been FAR worse than "Disco Duck.")

 

[davideduardo]

As for testing, I still don't get it. I HIGHLY DOUBT that radio stations in every market test individually for their own area.

You are wrong. Music testing is done regularly by most significant players in the larger markets. Heck, the leading station in places like Daytona Beach and Huntsville do tests!

We have a Chicago station that is not syndicated, but local AC, that mirrors a Milwaukee playlist song for song during the day. I know David will say that those songs "tested well'' but I don't buy that.

Do you really think that an AC preferences in the video age will vary between markets that even have considerable signal overlap? The reason the lists are so nearly the same is that the likes and dislikes are very nearly the same.

If regional testing was done, then it would be fair to assume that some of the country crossovers would be found in more country areas and more black records in cities with a larger black population, but none of this is true.

Testing in some form is done locally, not "regionally" in the major markets. The only case where I've seen somewhat regional tests being done, due to cost factors, is in very small markets that are very close together. My personal example was with Albany, GA, Tallahassee, FL and Dothan, AL, in country... the area is so similar that we could rotate tests in each of the three markets, and save a lot of money.

How exactly are the "testing audience members" picked??? If you say that we are not a good sample because we are "fanatics" then do you really want people who don't know the station as well to be your guide? If people are only occasional listeners or have other interests, then I think it's an awful waste of money (as mentioned before that testing is expensive) to use their judgement.

I already detailed this earlier.

A classic hits station might target 35-54, but the test candidates would be in the super core, or 39-49. Probably 50% male, 50% female for that format. Half 39-44, half 45-54. All must listen for at least 1 hour a day, at least 5 days a week.

A professional recruiting firm is hired by the research company to find people who will come to the test. The recruiter is paid $50 to $100 to find each person who shows up, and each recruit is paid from $60 to over $100 to come to a 3-hour test session.

If the format is less defined than classic hits, then a number of audio pods will be played for the prospective candidate, representing subsets of the music types played. If the person likes most of them "a lot" and meets the recruit specs, they get invited.

Perhaps a station has a direct competitor. The recruit specs may specify minimum 40% maximum 50% listeners to the other station.

Each project is different. So the recruit specifications are different. But they are always tailored to get people who like that "kind" of music and who can thus score the songs correctly

For example, JCPenney - a company trying to "reinvent" themselves to skew younger - used Mary Well's "My Guy" in a commercial over the last year. Obviously it "tested" well for them, so why don't I hear it on the radio?

We don't know if JCP tested the song prior to usage.
The campaign failed, and recent news articles hint at a collapse of JCP as soon as this year.
Many stations tend to shy away from songs used in ads, as they become free commercials.

 

[firepoint525]

And I almost never hear any of these on whatever passes for "classic hits" radio these days, so I feel vindicated. You've got to go to classic country radio to hear those anymore. And that is where they belong.

Just look at the 16 songs that hit #1 in '81. How many of them are played today? Maybe 4 or 5, if you're lucky to catch one of them on the radio. The only one we hear to death of the 16, is "Jessie's Girl". The country crossovers I can understand, but the regular pop singles? Come on. This is the prime demo period for classic hits radio.

What it says is that the majority of #1 records 32 years ago have about as much appeal to the target listener today as "Elvira" did to Firepoint all along.

I don't necessarily dislike "Elvira," I just don't think that it belonged on pop radio. Still don't. Evidently, the upper end of that coveted 18-34 demo aged out of the format just a couple of years later. How else can we explain "*** On Feel the Noize" by Quiet Riot hitting the top 10 just a couple of years later? Hell, I was all of 19 at the time, and that song made me feel like I had aged out of the format!

 

[davideduardo]

No, you might still hear them over stations like WSM-AM. But as I said, that's where they belonged all along.

What a bad example!

WSM ranks 25th in billings in Nashville, and is also about 25th in the 25-54 demographic.