Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[oldies76]

I played my first record on the radio 41 years ago as a 15 year old baby DJ. The criteria was what we thought sounded good and flowed nicely with the other songs. It was a small town, 3000 people. There were no ratings services. There also was no competition for ad dollars.

Now that's radio!! When I worked at KWVE in the early 90's, we did not have playlists, just made sure not to repeat the same Contemporary Christian songs twice in a 6 hour shift....all the music were on analog broadcast carts and some CD's.

Times have changed, huh?

 

[davideduardo]

And still, I have yet to see anyone comment on what actually happens when a commercial plays.

Arbitron has done several studies of tune out during commercials. The overall effect of stopsets is to knock about 10% of listeners off your signal.

For music stations I believe most listeners hit the pre-set as soon as a commercial block comes on so unless the identical commercial block is also playing at that same instant on the new destination music selection is a moot point.

Since about two-thirds of radio listening is not in the car where presets are just a finger away, the impact of commercials is much less in those locations. Then, listeners know that on-the-air radio has commercials and they accept that fact. What they don't expect is "bad songs" and they disappear much more readily when a detestable song.

If they don't hear your spot they are not likely to be influenced to buy your product. And with the expansion of commercial blocks to multiple minutes the first seconds of any commercial usually means the remainder of the block is skipped.

The two-stops-an-hour has been around for several decades, even back before the PPM era. Listeners are rather used to it, although with more and more suitable alternatives I think commercial loads in general are a point of vulnerability now and stations, to survive, will have to create a model with vastly fewer spots.

If I were a significant radio advertiser I would want to know the following:

1. How many of my demo listeners actually hear my message?
2. How did my message affect my sales?
3. Did I spend more or less money to make those sales, if any, profitable?

Such tracking is available via MediaMonitors where the impact of stopsets, individual songs and even jock bits can be measured.

The discussion about music is almost irrelevant. The listener may or may not hit the pre-set when they hear a personal stiff but they most likely will hit the pre-set when a commercial block comes on.

In reality, it is the opposite. Far fewer go away with a commercial set... which is expected... than with a genuine stiff. We see it in the above referenced data all the time.

The only way to properly measure the effectiveness of your ad campaign is to measure the results in business, not number of ears.

Radio is a medium. The effect on the business has to do with the offer... price, location, convenience, financing, styles, colors, etc., and all that depends on the advertiser, not the medium. Radio delivers pairs of ears. Making customers out of them depends on the advertiser's creative and the offer itself.

 

[oldies76]

Since about two-thirds of radio listening is not in the car where presets are just a finger away, the impact of commercials is much less in those locations. Then, listeners know that on-the-air radio has commercials and they accept that fact. What they don't expect is "bad songs" and they disappear much more readily when a detestable song.

So you're saying that office buildings, rec centers, movie theater pre-film music, people's homes, stadiums and other locations use commercial radio stations as background music with commercials? Try muzak or other streamed music channels or iPods. Radio is most commonly heard in cars....it's been that way for decades, since the 50's. If it's not heard in cars where pre-sets are rapidly available, then where is radio heard today?? 7 minutes of commercials are a tune-out, far more than hearing "Afternoon Delight" once in a year's time.

 

[michael hagerty]

Since about two-thirds of radio listening is not in the car where presets are just a finger away, the impact of commercials is much less in those locations. Then, listeners know that on-the-air radio has commercials and they accept that fact. What they don't expect is "bad songs" and they disappear much more readily when a detestable song.

So you're saying that office buildings, rec centers, movie theater pre-film music, people's homes, stadiums and other locations use commercial radio stations as background music with commercials? Try muzak or other streamed music channels or iPods. Radio is most commonly heard in cars....it's been that way for decades, since the 50's. If it's not heard in cars where pre-sets are rapidly available, then where is radio heard today??

Oldies76, you've lumped together a batch of places that don't belong together. Clearly movie theatres and stadiums aren't going to play a local radio station over the loudspeakers.

But homes? Yes. Mostly in the morning. People still get up to clock radios and keep them on as they go through their routine.

Small businesses? Tons. Most won't pop for Muzak until the ASCAP or BMI rep walks through the door and starts talking about public performance fees for playing the radio where their customers can hear it.

And definitely in offices. Many companies have policies against using workstation computers to stream music because of bandwidth concerns. The employees are told if they want music, they can bring a radio. Some certainly choose iPods, but at-work listening is a big deal.

When it comes to facts and statistics, don't argue with David. He knows these things inside and out. I've been aware of him and his work for more than 30 years. He doesn't spout BS, he doesn't push a personal agenda. He simply understands the medium of radio, how people use it, and how that's changed over time.

If he says something with certainty, it's because he's read the supporting research. Arguing (especially without actual, relevant data to support the argument) is a losing proposition.

 

[landtuna]

But homes? Yes. Mostly in the morning. People still get up to clock radios and keep them on as they go through their routine.

My wife's alarm clock radio turns on for 3-4 seconds before she turns it back off. And off it stays. The vast majority of people I know, including myself, turn on the TV in the morning. When I was working the radio didn't get turned on until I climbed into the car. Since the advent of the cell phone listening to radio by the younger set is almost ancient history.

Small businesses? Tons. Most won't pop for Muzak until the ASCAP or BMI rep walks through the door and starts talking about public performance fees for playing the radio where their customers can hear it.

I hear local radio in businesses much more than Muzak and I hear CD's more than radio.

And definitely in offices. Many companies have policies against using workstation computers to stream music because of bandwidth concerns. The employees are told if they want music, they can bring a radio. Some certainly choose iPods, but at-work listening is a big deal.

When I was slaving away at my Fortune 100 company the people who listened to music OTJ used portable players or they downloaded music to their hard drives and played it through earphones. I don't recall hearing any radio stations since the very early 80's.

When it comes to facts and statistics, don't argue with David. He knows these things inside and out. I've been aware of him and his work for more than 30 years. He doesn't spout BS, he doesn't push a personal agenda. He simply understands the medium of radio, how people use it, and how that's changed over time.

I also have learned a great deal from DE but my personal experience, at times, differs from his substantially.

 

[oldies76]

When it comes to facts and statistics, don't argue with David. He knows these things inside and out. I've been aware of him and his work for more than 30 years.

And here's a discussion by Arbitron:

http://www.psaresearch.com/americans.html

David's numbers are actually correct, but omitted the fact that people still listen in their cars, more than in any other location as a whole, which is what I was getting at.

The last sentence under 'Americans Are Driven People"

From 1997, but it should apply today.

 

[michael hagerty]

When it comes to facts and statistics, don't argue with David. He knows these things inside and out. I've been aware of him and his work for more than 30 years.

And here's a discussion by Arbitron:

http://www.psaresearch.com/americans.html

David's numbers are actually correct, but omitted the fact that people still listen in their cars, more than in any other location as a whole, which is what I was getting at.

The last sentence under 'Americans Are Driven People"

From 1997, but it should apply today.

No, Oldies76, you rebutted David's explanation of why tune-out of commercial breaks is limited (because about two-thirds of listening is not done in-car, where pushbuttons are within easy reach) by saying"radio is most commonly heard in cars."

It's not. It is most commonly heard outside of cars. It's irrelevant whether that 33% (give or take) of in-car listening is a bigger number than any other single location...two-thirds of radio listening happens in places other than cars.

 

[davideduardo]

David's numbers are actually correct, but omitted the fact that people still listen in their cars, more than in any other location as a whole, which is what I was getting at.

Wrong. While the PPM does not split out of home listening into "at work" and "in the car" the diary methodology does... and until just a few years ago, did in the now-PPM markets.

The largest listening location is at home.

And, for example, in New York city, about 25% of listening takes place in cars while 75% takes place at work, at home and "other" locations.

You are confusing that piece of Arbitron data, which cites in-car in drive times with the 6 AM-Midnight total day figure.

By the way, that data on the PSA site seems quite dated, and does not match PPM listening levels for the major markets.

 

[davideduardo]

I also have learned a great deal from DE but my personal experience, at times, differs from his substantially.

My experience has nothing to do with the data from the Arbitron ratings. The diary measures listening location for every incident of listening (at home, in the car, at work and "other") and the PPM measures in-home and away-from-home minute by minute. And for the PPM markets, we have historical data from the diary showing listening levels by location.

And for radio, the best way to find out everything from listening patterns to favorite and not-so-favorite songs is to actually ask the listeners and not to rely on anecdotal and personal experience.

n=1 is not an accurate sample.

 

[davideduardo]

David's numbers are actually correct, but omitted the fact that people still listen in their cars, more than in any other location as a whole, which is what I was getting at.

The last sentence under 'Americans Are Driven People"

From 1997, but it should apply today.

No, it does not apply at all.

Go to http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Arbitron/AmericanRadioToday2011.pdf

And then skip to page 109, which has a national average of listening location; in-home listening accounts for 36% of all listening time.

You should look through the rest of the booklet... it is the latest edition of this annual publication and takes into account the PPM, which was a brick-sized prototype in a laboratory on the third floor at Arbitron in 1997.

A new edition of the book will come out soon, reflecting the 2002 radio reality. Arbitron brings out a new one every year because format preferences change, age distinctions for formats change, and even listening occasions, lengths per occasion and such change. Using 15-year-old data is a fatal error.

 

[firepoint525]

If your listeners are SO fickle that they would tune you out for playing JUST ONE SONG that they don't like, then maybe you don't want them as listeners after all.

Every listener has a tune-out record (probably more than one). So, in essence, you're saying maybe you don't want any of your listeners.

Where did you get that? If a station plays nine songs that I like, and just one that I don't, that is pretty good odds, don't you think?

And if the issue for you is that they tune out over one record, then what would you consider to be reasonable? Two? Three? How many songs that a listener either doesn't like or is so ambivalent about that they become curious about what's playing on one of the dozens of other signals in the market do you expect them to tolerate before it's okay for them to exercise their freedom of choice?

I believe I answered that above, and in my last reply. And again, if you have Bob and Tom and Rick and Bubba and Jimbo and Steve and Pete and Bobbie Sue on your airwaves, I'm tuning you out because you are playing NO music! Ditto if you are airing a ballgame on Saturday afternoon.

The audience is not loyal to call letters or dial position. They'll listen to whatever they're in the mood to at the time. Your hedge against that is to minimize their urge to push the button. You do that by playing songs with the lowest negatives, minimizing the inevitable tune-out factor every song has.
The closest you can expect to get to loyalty is to become the station they listen to most and longest because you play the fewest songs they either dislike or don't care about.

Direct quote from a local station's Facebook page: "please stop playing the same songs at the same time of day every day." Apparently, that person was getting in the car and hearing THE EXACT SAME SONGS EVERY DAY for the drive in to work. It's real easy to dismiss industry insiders saying things like this, but when everyday people say the same things that we do (and they are!), when do you start paying attention to them? Only after you make them a PPM'er? NO ONE is asking for the return of "You Light Up My Life" or "Disco Duck" to the airwaves.

 

[oldies76]

If a station plays nine songs that I like, and just one that I don't, that is pretty good odds, don't you think?

Heck that would be acceptable I believe. Play that "lost 45" 10% of the time and still hear the "favorites" 90% of the time...now everyone is pleased, right?

Personally I'd stretch it to 80-20. Actually, some stations that play classic hits, do have a "lost 45" feature, a "sock hop" evening, or the Dick Bartley show, for added variety.....not to mention the Casey Kasem Top 40 on Saturdays for the 70's or early 80's.

 

[davideduardo]

Direct quote from a local station's Facebook page: "please stop playing the same songs at the same time of day every day." Apparently, that person was getting in the car and hearing THE EXACT SAME SONGS EVERY DAY for the drive in to work. It's real easy to dismiss industry insiders saying things like this, but when everyday people say the same things that we do (and they are!), when do you start paying attention to them? Only after you make them a PPM'er? NO ONE is asking for the return of "You Light Up My Life" or "Disco Duck" to the airwaves.

That is just a sign of a sloppy operation. Today's scheduling software, like MusicMaster and Selector/GSelector can protect play in the same hour, range of hours or daypart not just from day to day but for many, many days.

For example, I can specify that a song that played in the 1 PM hour today not return to the mid-day daypart until it plays all other dayparts and then, when it returns, it play in a different hour (like 11 AM)... and so on.

A station that plays the same song in the same hour is just not paying attention... that is not a problem with "radio" but a problem with that specific radio station.

 

[oldies76]

Aahh, technology.....the wonders of the 21st century radio.

Oh well....

 

[davideduardo]

Aahh, technology.....the wonders of the 21st century radio.

Oh well....

I don't know what is so "21st Century" about music scheduling software (if, indeed, that is what you were commenting on). I've been using computer scheduling for over 30 years. Indeed, Selector was established in 1979 and was doing computer scheduling even before the PC was invented.

Computer scheduling of commercials, promos and program elements goes back into the early 70's, in fact.

 

[oldies76]

(if, indeed, that is what you were commenting on).

I don't recall another time in the past (10, 20 years ago) where automated programming (no DJ's) has failed as much as in recent years . I've heard anything from two songs on top of each other (and lasting several minutes), two spots going on at once, episodes of several minutes of dead air, jingles on top of playing songs, even strange repeating electronic sounds (instead of music). Granted most of this has been heard on classic hits AM stations, but it seems more frequent now, than ever. In fact, the Dick Bartley show several months back, had dead air with fast repeating sounds in the background, that lasted over 10 minutes. Interesting, huh?

 

[davideduardo]

(if, indeed, that is what you were commenting on).

I don't recall another time in the past (10, 20 years ago) where automated programming (no DJ's) has failed as much as in recent years . I've heard anything from two songs on top of each other (and lasting several minutes), two spots going on at once, episodes of several minutes of dead air, jingles on top of playing songs, even strange repeating electronic sounds (instead of music). Granted most of this has been heard on classic hits AM stations, but it seems more frequent now, than ever. In fact, the Dick Bartley show several months back, had dead air with fast repeating sounds in the background, that lasted over 10 minutes. Interesting, huh?

That's not the same as computer music scheduling. A real person inputs data, sets scheduling rules, and produces and edits, manually, a log, which is only then put in the studio (often electronically). If the studio gear fails, if inept board ops screw up, etc., then the "perfect" log will not run right.

Saying that computer music scheduling is "automation" is like saying that using Microsoft Word is "automated report and letter writing".

What you are hearing is called "recession" and trying to do more with fewer people, particularly on marginal AMs (the very case you cite).

 

[Groove1670]

I don't recall another time in the past (10, 20 years ago) where automated programming (no DJ's) has failed as much as in recent years .

In the 70's the Harris 90 automation system ( and other like systems) were known to fade out songs. Jam up carts, and play time events out of sequence. You old timers probably remember the silence sensor light. ;D

Stations that use satellite with a automation always have errors. I don't think I have heard one station from the 80's to today that there is a least on glitch a day.

You know what? The average listener doesn't notice.

With 350 and 375 songs in the rotation. You will hear songs repeat in the same daypart.

 

[davideduardo]

In the 70's the Harris 90 automation system ( and other like systems) were known to fade out songs. Jam up carts, and play time events out of sequence. You old timers probably remember the silence sensor light.

The System 90 (and the later System 9000) did not do those things.

If a cart jammed, it was a mechanical issue in the Go-Cart or Carrousel.

If a time element played out of sequence, it was a failure of an operator to advance it after a power glitch or failure or due to badly recorded minutes.

I never had a System 90 play events out of the program sequence... and my stations were the Beta Test sites for the firmware PROMs.

Misplaced fades were due either due to misplaced EOM tones or due to using the wrong kind of update funcion ("fade and go" instead of "finish and go").

Stations that use satellite with a automation always have errors. I don't think I have heard one station from the 80's to today that there is a least on glitch a day.

My experience is that the glitches are nearly always caused by sloppy housekeeping in the programming of the station's computer system.

With 350 and 375 songs in the rotation. You will hear songs repeat in the same daypart.

Gold based formats (like Classic Hits and Country) generally have 700-800 songs. Hot AC may have 200-250. AC may have 300-350 songs. CHR may have under 100. That means that only the CHRs and Hot AC's (and the comparable formats aimed at ethnic audiences) might repeat currents in the same daypart because that is the core appeal of the formats.

 

[Groove1670]

I worked with two 90 systems for most of the 80's. Sorry, I did not go into details, but you did back up my claim with your statements.

Yes, poor programming and production (short break windows, distorted local liners, no liners, wrong liners) occur at stations everyday.

As far as song repetition. I was not format specific in my statement. My error.