Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[PirateJohnny]

...
Funny, similiar thread going on.....check out the San Francisco board, "Do You Really Care About Radio" David Eduardo, Michael Haggerty and the BigA are having their say about playing untested "hits" on classic hits radio. An endless debate, it seems...

It's a similar thread because the original poster spun this one off from that one....

Good luck.

Actually this thread was started by a participant in that thread, because my comments were based on my experience outside the San Francisco market in the late 60s/early 70s when I was a listener/future DJ.

...You're also right about that Canadian content rule, which explains why that's the only station I ever heard "Love Me, Love Me, Love" by Frank Mills these many years after its original run in the early '70s...

WOW! One more I need to track down for my library. That was a favorite back in the day.

Lotsa luck finding that one. I saw the title on only one Frank Mills greatest hits CD, then when I got it, it turned out to be an instrumental, not the vocal single version.

I've found it on the vinyl LP "Seven Of My Songs".

One of the questions I have is "Out of all the songs a person has heard (from the time period you are trying to attract them with), how many should be in a station's library? Of course, the bigger the library, the slower the rotation. And what about listeners who never heard songs as currents, but hear them for the first time as oldies and actually like them better than current songs?

 

[radiobum]

I guess the idea of asking non-radio listeners why they don't listen to radio is too far fetched for the suits !

 

[davideduardo]

I guess the idea of asking non-radio listeners why they don't listen to radio is too far fetched for the suits !

First, there are very few "non-radio listeners" so trying to use any data gleaned from the 5% to 6% that don't use radio is useless.

While done in the pre-new media days, the BBM in Canada did a study of non-users. What they found was that the people who did not use radio was broken into two groups, one that simply didn't use radio, and another that had no opportunity. The largest group was the "no opportunity" one, and it was made up of people who were on vacation, people in the hospital or sick, people with a family crisis, people who had a major work project and thus no time... etc.

Today, radio competes with new media. Users of new media do use radio, but less.

However, if you survey "people who use radio less" you will find every kind of taste subset. There is no large unserved group that will be discovered by researching (which means "talking to") lighter listeners. There is no format hole in most markets. There may be dozens of niche positions, but none can be filled by a significant commercial radio facility due to the economics.

In fact, stations that are not doing well do "format searches" to see if there is a type of programming or a music blend that would attract a significant group of listeners. But generally, the findings show that there are under-served listeners who are currently listening to stations that they are not totally happy with, not listeners who don't use radio who would "come back" if one format or another were implemented.

 

[oldies76]

One of the questions I have is "Out of all the songs a person has heard (from the time period you are trying to attract them with), how many should be in a station's library? Of course, the bigger the library, the slower the rotation. And what about listeners who never heard songs as currents, but hear them for the first time as oldies and actually like them better than current songs?

As I've always said (and will continue to do so....) play and rotate the tested songs, play the favorites, but from TIME TO TIME (maybe 2x an hour), include a "rarely played" classic that is not in the tested rotation. And don't repeat the same (rarely played song) more than twice in a weeks time, so that 48 (24 hours x 2 each hour) "rarely played" songs get played daily...that's 336 "rarely played" songs a week, or 1344 "rarely played" songs each month.

Combine that with your "always played tested songs" and whala......a perfectly balanced library that pleases everyone, including listeners hearing oldies for the first time.

 

[davideduardo]

As I've always said (and will continue to do so....) play and rotate the tested songs, play the favorites, but from TIME TO TIME (maybe 2x an hour), include a "rarely played" classic that is not in the tested rotation. And don't repeat the same (rarely played song) more than twice in a weeks time, so that 48 (24 hours x 2 each hour) "rarely played" songs get played daily...that's 336 "rarely played" songs a week, or 1344 "rarely played" songs each month.

Combine that with your "always played tested songs" and whala......a perfectly balanced library that pleases everyone, including listeners hearing oldies for the first time.

Those "rarely played" songs have been tested. They didn't pass. Stations know how much damage the do, and in PPM markets they know how destructive they are to TSL.

Would you like it if your local hospital occasionally let med students who did not pass the board exam perform treatments and surgery?

I didn't think so.

 

[EZway2go]

One of the questions I have is "Out of all the songs a person has heard (from the time period you are trying to attract them with), how many should be in a station's library? Of course, the bigger the library, the slower the rotation. And what about listeners who never heard songs as currents, but hear them for the first time as oldies and actually like them better than current songs?

As I've always said (and will continue to do so....) play and rotate the tested songs, play the favorites, but from TIME TO TIME (maybe 2x an hour), include a "rarely played" classic that is not in the tested rotation. And don't repeat the same (rarely played song) more than twice in a weeks time, so that 48 (24 hours x 2 each hour) "rarely played" songs get played daily...that's 336 "rarely played" songs a week, or 1344 "rarely played" songs each month.

Combine that with your "always played tested songs" and whala......a perfectly balanced library that pleases everyone, including listeners hearing oldies for the first time.

I like that idea of the rarely played classic 2x an hour, but I probably wouldn't repeat it in any given week—in fact, probably not for several months. For one thing, over the 3-decade period from the '60s thru the '80s, there's so much material available. But more importantly, these types of songs have a tendency to stick out like a sore thumb in a playlist. If I were to hear a song like the seldom played "Ballad of the Green Berets" on a station twice in, say, 2 or 3 months, I would begin to suspect they have a limited library, despite being one of the biggest No. 1 songs of 1966. Whether that station really had a small playlist or not, certain songs simply aren't heard anymore, and repeating them only calls attention to them and, thus, the perception of a limited library.

To PirateJohnny's question about hearing songs for the first time as oldies and never as currents... yes, that indeed happens. It happened to me in the early '90s. That's how I "re-discovered for the first time" songs that are now considered adult standards. They were popular long before I was ever interested in that kind of music. And in recent years I've also been developing a fondness for classic country.

 

[oldies76]

If I were to hear a song like the seldom played "Ballad of the Green Berets" on a station twice in, say, 2 or 3 months, I would begin to suspect they have a limited library, despite being one of the biggest No. 1 songs of 1966. Whether that station really had a small playlist or not, certain songs simply aren't heard anymore, and repeating them only calls attention to them and, thus, the perception of a limited library.

Interesting point...chances are you wouldn't hear "Ballad..." anyways the second time around, since it could be played during the early am hours or while you are at work. But think of the potential. "Ballad of the Green Berets" is just one rare song and like you said, there is so much material from the 60's to the 80's. And if you repeat the "rarely played" songs once every two months, there even more opportunity to play a bundle of rare songs, 2x every hour among the tested songs. Think of all the great songs just from 1983 or 1976, or heck, even 1967 that are not played today?? Just a thought......

 

[oldies76]

Those "rarely played" songs have been tested. They didn't pass. Stations know how much damage the do, and in PPM markets they know how destructive they are to TSL.

Would you like it if your local hospital occasionally let med students who did not pass the board exam perform treatments and surgery?

Apples and oranges......You're risking major legal action with the med student example you gave and it's pure negligence, but hearing a few rare songs a day is not negligence & does not nearly have the same magnitude. A few may tune out, but that happens with any song, tested or not. Everyone does not like every song. I tune out when "Boys of Summer" or "Don't Stop Believing" is played for the 4th time in a week.

In fact, "You Light Up My Life" was just played yesterday morning as a 1977 flashback #1 on the American Top 40 show, featuring October 1982 on an AC station, KKLI 106.3.

It could have been edited out...........but it wasn't.

Oh btw, I didn't tune out, since it's a "rarely heard" song to begin with.

 

[CTListener]

Combine that with your "always played tested songs" and whala......a perfectly balanced library that pleases everyone, including listeners hearing oldies for the first time.

Voila (vwah-lah). It's French. Yours is a great alternative spelling, though. I'm a copy editor and once ran across a mention of a dog called a "chuwawa." This reminded me of that.

 

[radiobum]

Christmas music when it's 80 degrees outside and sunny !

 

[oldies76]

Christmas music when it's 80 degrees outside and sunny !

Christmas music before Thanksgiving.

 

[davideduardo]

Those "rarely played" songs have been tested. They didn't pass. Stations know how much damage the do, and in PPM markets they know how destructive they are to TSL.

Would you like it if your local hospital occasionally let med students who did not pass the board exam perform treatments and surgery?

Apples and oranges......You're risking major legal action with the med student example you gave and it's pure negligence, but hearing a few rare songs a day is not negligence & does not nearly have the same magnitude. A few may tune out, but that happens with any song, tested or not. Everyone does not like every song.

My point is that people do not tune in to a radio station (OTA or its stream) for mediocrity or "some good songs and some bad ones". They tune in to a station where they expect that all the songs will be good... perhaps a few that are sort of neutral, but not a bunch of bad songs.

Stations do research and find out which songs "everybody" does not object to hearing and which have high "like" and "favorite" scores.

Just like nobody consciously goes to visit a doctor who is "mediocre" nobody goes to a radio station that plays a lot of so-so songs.

As I've said before, stations in the 48 PPM markets (which represent just a tick under half of the entire US population) can look at song by song listening patterns and determine which songs consistently make listeners go away. Those songs are not played... and, while they may have been hits at some point in time, they are seen to be stiffs today.

 

[unitron]

I guess the idea of asking non-radio listeners why they don't listen to radio is too far fetched for the suits !

First, there are very few "non-radio listeners" so trying to use any data gleaned from the 5% to 6% that don't use radio is useless.
...

I'm a non-radio listener.

Mostly because if they're going to play anything I like, it'll be something that's been played to death over the years.

By preventing unpleasant surprises, they prevent pleasant ones.

Maybe they make more money that way.

(or perhaps lose less money)

But I never considered it was my job as a listener to help them make more money.

 

[radiobum]

I guess the idea of asking non-radio listeners why they don't listen to radio is too far fetched for the suits !

First, there are very few "non-radio listeners" so trying to use any data gleaned from the 5% to 6% that don't use radio is useless.
...

I DON'T THINK A LOT OF RADIO PEOPLE 'GET' WHY SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SIRIUS/XM. I'LL GIVE THEM A HINT-IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT MUSIC AND I'M NOT TALKING BILLY JOEL AND R.E.O. SPEEDWAGON !


I'm a non-radio listener.

Mostly because if they're going to play anything I like, it'll be something that's been played to death over the years.

By preventing unpleasant surprises, they prevent pleasant ones.

Maybe they make more money that way.

(or perhaps lose less money)

But I never considered it was my job as a listener to help them make more money.

 

[davideduardo]

I DON'T THINK A LOT OF RADIO PEOPLE 'GET' WHY SO MANY PEOPLE HAVE SIRIUS/XM. I'LL GIVE THEM A HINT-IT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE SERIOUS ABOUT MUSIC AND I'M NOT TALKING BILLY JOEL AND R.E.O. SPEEDWAGON !

I'm a "radio person" and have also programmed, some years back, 5 of the XM channels.

I get that a huge audience for satellite is comprised of truckers and people who drive a lot between cities for work. These millions and millions of subscribers prefer satellite for it's ability to travel from city to city and state to state with them.

These people are not "serious about music" but, instead, serious about getting a clear signal wherever they travel.

Anecdotally, I spend time in three cities, in separate and separated rated metros. I drive about 30,000 miles a year between them. I have satellite, and I use it when traveling for the same reasons as stated above.

But, when I am in the LA area, for example, I listen to LA OTA stations. I don't listen to satellite when there are better options because I find the satellite playlists in every channel I use (about 10 or 11 of them) to have way too many songs I don't want to hear. The libraries are too deep, and in general, the rotations and repetition is absolutely horrible...

I'm finding that I can now use apps, Pandora and such with no dropouts on my entire route to each location, so this is likely the last year I will pay for satellite.

And my ears will thank me... the added channels have resulted in less bandwidth per channel and lots more fatiguing compression.

Satellite had a very narrow window. It's being replaced by better, more varied technology-driven options.

You do know that at most, about a third of radio listening is in the car, and about 100% of satellite installs are in cars?

 

[firepoint525]

In fact, "You Light Up My Life" was just played yesterday morning as a 1977 flashback #1 on the American Top 40 show, featuring October 1982 on an AC station, KKLI 106.3.
It could have been edited out...........but it wasn't.
Oh btw, I didn't tune out, since it's a "rarely heard" song to begin with.

You must have the '80s AT40 where you live, and they must have still been playing the '70s #1s in their "archives" feature that they were doing at the time.

Here in Nashville, on Hippie Radio http://www.hippieradio945.com they carry the '70s AT40 from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. on Sundays. This weekend, they are doing the countdown from this week in November of 1977. "You Light Up My Life" was #1 that week, so we will be hearing it again. (They aired it as an "extra" in a 1977 countdown from a couple of months back.)

Two weeks ago, they aired on October 1976 countdown in which "Disco Duck" was still #2. They didn't edit that out, either.

You can download the app from their website so that you can listen to them, if you like.

 

[allenv]

All this so called research makes rocket science out of something that isn't..Use the charts as your reference.If it was a top 10 hit in the era your station plays you probably should play it too..There are also a good number of top 20 songs people can recognize..There is really no perfect answer to this but I will say in almost 30 years of radio the biggest compliant I hear is" I'm tired of hearing the same songs over and over" and then there is always a few people who call for the same tunes everyday. This has been an issue with programmers since radio began and it will continue to be. I just think a station with a 350 song playlist that doesn't manage its library well gets very boring very quickly..

 

[davideduardo]

All this so called research makes rocket science out of something that isn't..Use the charts as your reference.

You obviously came in after this movie had already started.

Radio stations are not museums. Oldies or Classic Hits stations play songs from the past that people still want to hear today. The problem is in knowing which songs will still evoke a positive reaction if played on the radio today. "Research" simply means "talking with the listeners" and in this context involves finding out the playable songs.

A majority of "charting" songs from the past are not playable today, and techniques such as looking at the MediaMonitors' "M Score" on a song's play history will show you which ones cause listers to consistently leave a station.

And, of course, when talking about the charts from the 50's and 60's, there were many outside influences and statistical issues that make them imperfect in any event.

There is really no perfect answer to this but I will say in almost 30 years of radio the biggest compliant I hear is" I'm tired of hearing the same songs over and over"

Those comments usually come when a station plays songs that shouldn't be played at all.

and then there is always a few people who call for the same tunes everyday.

For decades, "request lines" have been window dressing and have not influenced programming at all; today, if a station does get requests they come via email and text messages, not the phone.

This has been an issue with programmers since radio began and it will continue to be. I just think a station with a 350 song playlist that doesn't manage its library well gets very boring very quickly..

Where do so many people get the "350" number from? While 300 is an average library size for a traditional AC station that also plays currents, it is not the size of a classic hits library... those tend to be in the 700 to 800 song range.

And library size is pretty much determined by finding out all the songs that the bulk of listeners like hearing, and eliminating all the ones they would tune out if they heard. Library size is not a thing a programmer "decides" on but, rather, a result of asking the listeners.

 

[oldies76]

This weekend, they are doing the countdown from this week in November of 1977. "You Light Up My Life" was #1 that week, so we will be hearing it again. (They aired it as an "extra" in a 1977 countdown from a couple of months back.)

Two weeks ago, they aired on October 1976 countdown in which "Disco Duck" was still #2. They didn't edit that out, either.

So much for the "stiffs" theory (as others say), huh?? Yeah, it was AT40 the 80's, but now I can't even hear it anymore, since the station went all Christmas a few days ago!

 

[allenv]

There is no right or wrong answer to this. I will say less and less music decisions are actually made by the PD or in house and too me that's a problem.