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Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

DavidEduardo said:
If, in a sweep, you play 6 songs, each of which has 25% to 30% hate or acquired dislike (burn) on it, you can generally assume that just about everyone in the audience has just heard 2 or 3 songs that they dislike immensely. Do you think those listeners will be back later or tomorrow?

There you go again....stating and assuming that everyone listening to a particular station will dislike all low scoring songs or the same 2 or 3 songs, thus causing the song to be yanked from rotation.

If "Don't Give Up On Us" by David Soul is played, do you really think EVERYONE will tune away at once, or just some (less than 40%)? Every song is someone's favorite (for the 147th time.)
 
DavidEduardo said:
No, you have to be a Luddite to buy a single purpose radio today. I'd never buy a stand-alone radio when I can have my phone, my email, my "radio stations", my music collection, my videos, my Internet, my maps and GPS, and my messaging all on one device I can put in my pocket!

If they are being sold, then there must be some demand....just like VHS blank tapes or 35MM film, or some classic cars.

Besides, why fiddle with some handheld device at home, when all one has to do is flip a switch and boom.....Music! There are still folks that enjoy hearing music from a radio. Heck I still (and will always) enjoy hearing analog sounding music from a reel to reel tape deck or a turntable. Nothing wrong with that, I hope..... The sound is unique.

You do know that music heard from a tape deck, set at 7.5 ips is superior to most digital formats, such as mp3. You would have to agree, being in radio for decades.

In some cases, just because it's new, does not mean it's better.
 
oldies76 said:
DavidEduardo said:
If, in a sweep, you play 6 songs, each of which has 25% to 30% hate or acquired dislike (burn) on it, you can generally assume that just about everyone in the audience has just heard 2 or 3 songs that they dislike immensely. Do you think those listeners will be back later or tomorrow?

There you go again....stating and assuming that everyone listening to a particular station will dislike all low scoring songs or the same 2 or 3 songs, thus causing the song to be yanked from rotation.

No, he's saying that if six songs have 25-30% hate/burnout ratings and you play them all in a row for a focus group or your radio station's audience, you can assume that at least two of those songs will push nearly everybody hate/burnout button, providing the sampling used is truly representative and not skewed by the inclusion of too many oldies geeks or similar musical completists. He's not assuming everybody hates the same songs at all, the way I read it, just that songs that test poorly with 25-30 percent of a true scientific sample will generate a negative reaction among a significant number of typical listeners, and that playing a lot of such songs has the potential to drive significant numbers of listeners away from your station. Makes sense to me, even though in my dream world oldies stations would play more titles.
 
oldies76 said:
DavidEduardo said:
If, in a sweep, you play 6 songs, each of which has 25% to 30% hate or acquired dislike (burn) on it, you can generally assume that just about everyone in the audience has just heard 2 or 3 songs that they dislike immensely. Do you think those listeners will be back later or tomorrow?

There you go again....stating and assuming that everyone listening to a particular station will dislike all low scoring songs or the same 2 or 3 songs, thus causing the song to be yanked from rotation.

If "Don't Give Up On Us" by David Soul is played, do you really think EVERYONE will tune away at once, or just some (less than 40%)? Every song is someone's favorite (for the 147th time.)

Second try: each song of the 6 has a 30% negative score (that is, less than neutral and meaning "I hate/dislike a lot that song."). 6 times 30% is 180%. So, by averages, every listener is likely to really dislike two of the 6 songs.

If a third of the songs I hear on a station are stinkers, to me, I am not going to ever listen to that station.
 
oldies76 said:
You do know that music heard from a tape deck, set at 7.5 ips is superior to most digital formats, such as mp3. You would have to agree, being in radio for decades.

Actually, a 256 kbs or a 320 kbs MP3 ripped from an original wav or CD is going to be a lot better than a 7.6 ips tape deck... which is why the standard for recording was 15 ips, and there were even high-end cart machines that ran at 15 ips.
 
David...LOVED the story about your work in R-W.

But the digital audio of an mp3 vs a decent (say ReVox) analog recorded/analog playback of a
7 1/2 ips QUALITY tape (not Irish, but Ampex/Quantegy 406 or better), I'll take the ReVox every time. An Otari, maybe not...you may be right there. Teac, Akai, Sony? But the Studer audio is superior. But it's a personal thing...like tube amps vs solid state. But that is limited by whats on the Master Tape anyway, no? GIGO. The smooth, sweet sound of the letter "S" is always turned fuzzy, into a Z sound on an mp3.

As a winner, mp3 is champ for convenience everytime. Quality, not so much.
 
HEY! No bashing my Otari! ;D

R
 
The modern consultant creates a station molded for the people who are the least likely to stay there. Those button pushing Johnnies must be kept listening to P1 at all costs. By creating a bland environment where the listener is lulled into not punching the channel changer, they have created a boring mush.

There is major evil that must be avoided. "TUNE OUT." We must never program anything that might annoy the people who apparently don't like stations enough to stick around very long. By creating such programming, all of the spark has been culled as well.

The exact things that create TUNE OUT are also the things that many listeners remember fondly about their favorite stations. Those things have been carefully removed through research. Now there is a sanitized skim milk programming mindset everywhere, and no cream to be seen. Cream offends too many people. Plus, it's fattening.

Those of us who know nothing about programming have slowly left the building over the last 30 years. We're too damned stupid to keep listening to the boring dreck and have moved on to something else.

Since the vast preponderance of listeners are just regular people who know nothing about programming, they don't understand that they are supposed to be bored by the product, so they become restless and look for something else. They have slowly turned away from radio by consultants FOR consultants.

Killing the emotion in radio programming has had one measurable result. Apparently people don't tune out the station when the long 'stop sets' occur. They just don't give a damn, so they keep listening. Commercial or music has become all the same. They're asleep.

Thanks consultants. You have killed radio a little at a time by cutting out its personality, year by year in your war on TUNE OUT.

Dance on the corpse and declare victory as loudly as you wish. Radio's dead body doesn't care. Just like most of the audience.

Those of us too stupid to have an opinion on the matter have less boring things to do than listen to pasteurized radio.
 
I don't know how you would get a group of people in a big room listening to songs, one after another, and come up with a discernible list of those which were "neutral or better".

Listening to music is either done while doing something else (background noise) or while someone is "in the mood". A very small number of people out of the millions of us purposefully sit down and do nothing while listening to music but their genre tends to be jazz or classical, not pop/rock.

If I were to sit still and do nothing but listen to my private library (remember now, these are my "favorites") I will probably find, on any particular day, that I didn't like a few or really liked others. Depends on mood mainly.

Fortunately, pop music today is mostly junk so I will never have to try to find a pearl in the oyster but it still seems like a very inexact way to program a playlist. I would think that picking music by number of jukebox plays or record purchases or even phone requests was a better way since those people actually spent time or money voting. Even texting doesn't come close - too effortless.
 
Shiny Knob said:
Apparently people don't tune out the station when the long 'stop sets' occur.

Since all stop sets can be expected to be long when the first hint of a stop set begins I hit the button.

The stop set might as well be labeled "listener dump".
 
landtuna said:
Shiny Knob said:
Apparently people don't tune out the station when the long 'stop sets' occur.

Since all stop sets can be expected to be long when the first hint of a stop set begins I hit the button.

The stop set might as well be labeled "listener dump".

Not true at all.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Arbitron/What Happens When The Spots Come On.pdf

This shows what really happens during stopsets. Listeners "know" that stations have commercials. They have a certain amount of patience with them.

On the other hand, they don't have patience with songs they dislike.
 
landtuna said:
I don't know how you would get a group of people in a big room listening to songs, one after another, and come up with a discernible list of those which were "neutral or better".

After witnessing, using and actually conducting a coupla' thousand music tests I can tell you that they are absolutely able to interpret likes and dislikes. Of course, there is the caveat that you have to recruit the right people and fulfill all the other elements of good research, but today's research companies do an excellent job.

Listening to music is either done while doing something else (background noise) or while someone is "in the mood". A very small number of people out of the millions of us purposefully sit down and do nothing while listening to music but their genre tends to be jazz or classical, not pop/rock.

The purpose of a music test is to have people score each song based on "how much you would like to hear that song played on the radio today".

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/research_AMT.htm shows how a test is conducted. Of course, formulating the very precise specifications on who is invited, called "recruit specs" is a separate and lengthy procedure based on Arbitron data, station goals, average age of listeners, etc.

We are talking about $30 k or more for an average size playlist with extras, and as much as $45 k for a station with a large library or a significant number of "what if" songs. That amount of money pays for the incentives (participants get, on average, $75 to $100 to attend a 3 hour session), the meeting room, snacks, the research company team, the recruit fee for a professional recruiting firm, data processing, a moderator, etc.

I've seen stations turn around with a music test when none was done before. I have seen ratings spike when a test is done when none was done for a while. And I have seen new stations with a researched list go to #1 in huge markets within their first ratings period.

If I were to sit still and do nothing but listen to my private library (remember now, these are my "favorites") I will probably find, on any particular day, that I didn't like a few or really liked others. Depends on mood mainly.

And that is why a music test brings in a group of people large enough to flatten any individual mood or quirk issues. You will always have one person who hates a particular song that everyone else likes... maybe it is because it reminds them of their ex or a bad time in life. But average that reaction with 99 others and the effect is insignificant.

Fortunately, pop music today is mostly junk so I will never have to try to find a pearl in the oyster but it still seems like a very inexact way to program a playlist. I would think that picking music by number of jukebox plays or record purchases or even phone requests was a better way since those people actually spent time or money voting.

The problem with sales data is that there is no demographic data available. You have no idea if it is your listeners or another station's folks who are consuming the music. And I can't recall the last time I saw a juke box... and then it was at some retro diner-like place and the songs were all 50 years old.

Finding out what listeners want to hear and then delivering it has been a success formula for radio for decades. It does not matter if you like the music... it matters what music each station's listeners enjoy.
 
Shiny Knob said:
The modern consultant creates a station molded for the people who are the least likely to stay there. Those button pushing Johnnies must be kept listening to P1 at all costs. By creating a bland environment where the listener is lulled into not punching the channel changer, they have created a boring mush.

As I have said, there are very, very few program consultants now. Between consolidation and the economy, the model is to have experts within each company who assist the local and regional programmers.

The PPM has shown that P1 status is a variable; we did not know it in the diary days where we had one week samples of behaviour. The average person has several stations they listen to "a lot" and the one that gets the most (the definition of P1 status to any particular station) changes week to week or month to month.

So programmers go for heavy users, not just today's P1's.

The other thing that the PPM has shown is that there is no such thing as "set it and forget it" listening. Listening spans are very brief, and are defined by each person's activities. People stop listening when they take out the trash, take the kids to the school bus stop, go to the bathroom, get in the shower, take a coffee break, go to lunch, go to a meeting or get a phone call... and many other interruptions that each person's day is filled with. The revelation from this is that people have to want to come back to a station... it must be compelling or appropriate for the mood and situation each listener is in.

There is major evil that must be avoided. "TUNE OUT." We must never program anything that might annoy the people who apparently don't like stations enough to stick around very long. By creating such programming, all of the spark has been culled as well.

Arbitron measures two things only: cume (do you listen at least once a week) and time spent listening (how long do you listen each day and week). So the simple formula is to be attractive ("compelling" or whatever other similar term works applies, too) so people come and come back and with no negatives that will shorten the listening occasion.

If a person tunes out because the station does something bad, they don't generally come back for a while, if ever. It's like a restaurant... eat a bad meal, and you don't go back.

The exact things that create TUNE OUT are also the things that many listeners remember fondly about their favorite stations. Those things have been carefully removed through research.

Those two sentences are totally contradictory. Research finds out what listeners like and what they dislike. If the listener likes something ("fond memories") they will not diss it in research.

They have slowly turned away from radio by consultants FOR consultants.

One of the first things a consultant did in the past (when we still had independent consultants) was help interpret research so that a station did what the listeners said they wanted. That is radio by the listeners and for the listeners.

Any consultant with a personal agenda was not a consultant for very long.

Apparently people don't tune out the station when the long 'stop sets' occur. They just don't give a damn, so they keep listening.

People know stations have commercials. In fact, there are fewer of them than in the "glory days" of Top 40 in the 50's and 60's. People expect commercials. They don't expect bad music, jocks that talk too much, etc. When they hear those things, they change stations.
 
DavidEduardo said:
And I can't recall the last time I saw a juke box... and then it was at some retro diner-like place and the songs were all 50 years old.

Wow, just walk into any sportsbar and most likely you'll find one...and it's the hits of recent times for the most part. Unless of course, you were referring to a 45rpm jukebox.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Not true at all.

I disagree. (I know.....you're surprised and shocked.)

DavidEduardo said:

Wow....an opinion supporting the advertising industry prepared by three insiders. No chance of favoritism there! :eek:

DavidEduardo said:
This shows what really happens during stopsets. Listeners "know" that stations have commercials. They have a certain amount of patience with them.

I'd say in the old days that was true but not today when normal stop sets are 5-6 minutes long and spew 15 different ads during that time.

DavidEduardo said:
On the other hand, they don't have patience with songs they dislike.

I've been riding in cars with peers and offspring and their peers and can tell you that their behavior hasn't changed since the 50's. There may be some "discussion" when an unpopular song comes on but people generally don't hit the button unless the majority (or the biggest guy nearest the pre-set) wins the argument. There is NO discussion or delay when a stop set begins. Instantly every finger within poking distance heads for the pre-set button and those not in reach begin whining.

Of course today most passengers are hooked up to their own players so the only radio playing in the vehicle is for the sole entertainment of the driver.
 
DavidEduardo said:
People expect commercials. They don't expect bad music, jocks that talk too much, etc. When they hear those things, they change stations.

People expect a commercial break that lasts a short time (1-3 minutes), not these monstrocity 5-7 minute breaks nowadays, as stations confine most sets to once or twice an hour. Sure you'll get your 10 songs in a row, but at a price.

Long stop sets are a major tune out, more than your "low scoring" two hits per hour presentation. I'd be far more inclined to change stations, when all I hear is 7 minutes of non-stop blabber of debt consolidation spots versus a song by Leif Garrett. And so would most listeners.
 
RE: the '60's Top 40 Era of radio and the stopset. DE is correct, They're were more of them, especially in drivetime. BUT, they were NOT 8-10 minutes long. A stopset then wasn't like having root canal.

Listening to Dan Ingram airchecks from 77WABC, and Jim Nettleton from 56WFIL; Tune/JX/Tune then a stop set, other than FCC mandated Newscasts, 90 seconds to 2 minutes. And the spots were entertaining, with great jingles, and usually a Live jock read from a fact sheet, so it was different every time. And Dan, along with local news (5 minutes sooner @ :25 & :55), was saddled with ABC Contemporary News AND Howard Cosell "Speaking Of Sports"!
 
oldies76 said:
People expect a commercial break that lasts a short time (1-3 minutes), not these monstrocity 5-7 minute breaks nowadays, as stations confine most sets to once or twice an hour. Sure you'll get your 10 songs in a row, but at a price.

Since in the 50's and 60's Top 40's ran right at the 18-minute barrier, you are talking about 6 3 minute stops an hour.

Arbitron brought the quarter hour concept to programming, and stations went to 4 stops of 4-5-4-5 minutes in the hour.

As stations recognized that most tune out happens int he first 90 seconds or so, and that 2 such occasions an hour were better than 4, we ended up with two 5 to 7 minute stops per hour.

We haven't had 1 to 3 minute stopsets for the better part of 4 decades.

Long stop sets are a major tune out, more than your "low scoring" two hits per hour presentation.

No, they are not. I presented a link to data based on the simplest measurement: the listening of PPM meter panelists when stopsets came up on whatever station they were listening to. Stopsets are a much less damaging thing than playing a disliked song.

There is no bias or interpretation in looking at the meter data. It is binary: some stay, some don't. And very few people don't stay.
 
landtuna said:
Wow....an opinion supporting the advertising industry prepared by three insiders. No chance of favoritism there! :eek:

Actually, all the data represents is a the listening of PPM panelists matched to the stopset times of each station. Any Media Monitors subscriber can look at stopset attrition... this project simply looked across markets and a variety of formats.
 
Okay, so I'm late getting to this discussion. On a message board for another website---which I won't name here---there is an ongoing discussion about 1960s songs that we're all sick of hearing. Almost every one of us is sick of Brown Eyed Girl, Oh Pretty Woman, Do Wah Diddy Diddy, Happy Together and Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye. There are many songs we're sick of, but those five are the most cited. For most of us, as soon as we hear the first notes of one of those songs, we change the station. And commercial stopsets?---A definite channel-changer. I'm in Los Angeles where most stopsets on music stations run from eight to ten minutes. Maybe breaks are shorter on stations in smaller cities...but very few people listen to stopsets here. And Mister Eduardo?---We're real people and real listeners, not "PPM meter panelists."
 
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