Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

[Thomps2525]

Mister Eduardo, it's true that Howard Stern had a low rating here in Los Angeles...but he still did a lot better than Don Imus's brief run on KLAC! New Yorkers and Angelenos are different breeds. After KRTH morning man Robert W. Morgan died, one of the DJs who did an on-air audition to replace him was Dan Ingram. They wound up hiring Philadelphia-born Gary Bryan.

To adapt Mister firepoint's assessment: In many cases, if listeners don't like a station for playing ten-minute commercial blocks, they won't simply change channels when the commercials start---they won't listen to the station at all. The AQH numbers may say how many potential listeners will hear an ad...but not, as you stated, how many people "will hear an ad." You seem to have spent more than 75 years (more or less) conducting tests and doing research and making studies and monitoring listenership and calculating statistics. (Whew!) Have you ever done studies for a particular advertiser to determine how many listeners actually paid attention to a radio ad when it was broadcast? If so, I'd love to hear the results.

 

[davideduardo]

Mister Eduardo, it's true that Howard Stern had a low rating here in Los Angeles...but he still did a lot better than Don Imus's brief run on KLAC! New Yorkers and Angelenos are different breeds.

My point is that Stern, who was #1 in LA and NY in AQH in quite a number of books, was around 10th in cume. He was not in the category of "everybody likes him" and, were he still on terrestrial radio with PPM the measurement, would probably not even be in the topo 5 in AQH.

All of which illustrates, simply, that no radio offering in NY or LA consistently has more than around 5% of the listening at any given time... one man's delicacy is another man's poison.

To adapt Mister firepoint's assessment: In many cases, if listeners don't like a station for playing ten-minute commercial blocks, they won't simply change channels when the commercials start---they won't listen to the station at all.

First, no station has 10 minute commercial breaks.

Second, there is no evidence that the length of stopsets is affecting radio usage.

What is affecting radio usage is the plethora of alternative entertainment options... ranging from 130 million or so installed gaming consoles to computers, iPods, smartphones, tablets and multimedia car dashboards.

So people have become used to "pull" technology where they can have what they want when they want it. Radio is "push" technology and provides a one size fits all delivery system, while "pull" media can customize entertainment down to the n=1 dimension.

Radio's future is hindered by the push model, not stopsets.

Have you ever done studies for a particular advertiser to determine how many listeners actually paid attention to a radio ad when it was broadcast? If so, I'd love to hear the results.

Because major advertiser ad campaigns tend to be spread across many stations and multiple media channels, it's impossible to measure the effectiveness of one radio station.

And all advertising consists of more than just the messenger... the message must be right. A radio ad must create interest, and must satisfy customer needs such as location, pricing, assortment, convenience, product utility, self-image, etc. That is the realm of the product or service itself as well as the creative done by an agency.

You can hardly measure a radio spot's effectiveness against the station alone... there are so many other variables of vastly greater importance than the medium.

You can even do follow up studies with listeners to see if they remember commercials... but that measures the appeal of the spot and the product, not the medium.

Advertisers can measure the success of a campaign, but not the contributions of each channel and each station, TV channel, cable system, billboard location or web presence... as well as word of mouth, social network comments, etc., etc.

Only the local advertiser in a place like Blythe who buys spots on one station is in a position to judge effectiveness... and even then there are all the other factors involved as well.

 

[landtuna]

Radio's future is hindered by the push model, not stopsets.

I can get identical music from a variety of devices.

Only radio has stopsets.

Radio's future will be determined by stopset irritation.

I, and others, are already casualties.

Right now I am living on radio's HD-2 which has very few, or no, commercials. If and when HD-2 goes the way of the main signal with regard to stopsets I will turn off the radio forever. The same thing that moved listeners from AM to FM will eventually kill FM too.

 

[michael hagerty]

Mister Eduardo, it's true that Howard Stern had a low rating here in Los Angeles...but he still did a lot better than Don Imus's brief run on KLAC! New Yorkers and Angelenos are different breeds. After KRTH morning man Robert W. Morgan died, one of the DJs who did an on-air audition to replace him was Dan Ingram. They wound up hiring Philadelphia-born Gary Bryan.

They actually wound up hiring former Los Angeles morning man Charlie Van Dyke (who replaced Robert W. at KHJ in 1973 and stayed until 1977). CVD did mornings on KRTH for two years.

Jim Carson (who replaced Robert W. at KIQQ in 1975 and did mornings there for many years) followed Van Dyke for two years, then Gary Bryan for two years, Hollywood Hamilton for a year, and then Gary again for the past six.

Gary may not have been born in New York City, but he programmed and did mornings at WPLJ there, and Hamilton spent years at Z-100.

 

[oldies76]

"Repetition" complaints, in 99% of the occasions, really refer to any play of songs we don't really like much.

And how many people have complained about repetitious "Brown Eyed Girl", a song supposedly 99% of the listeners like? Or music by the Eagles?

I believe repetition complaints refer to any song that is in heavy rotation. Over saturation can cause complaints too. But how can a once a month played song (if that) cause repetition complaints? Just don't see the logic there.

 

[davideduardo]

I believe repetition complaints refer to any song that is in heavy rotation. Over saturation can cause complaints too. But how can a once a month played song (if that) cause repetition complaints? Just don't see the logic there.

Since even the heavy listeners, the ones we call P1 in the trade, spend less than an hour and a half a day with their favorite station, there is no "real" repetition.

But those same listeners may hear a couple of songs they don't like each time they tune in... and maybe one that they have stronger "dislike" feelings. So the perception that the station plays "bad" songs a little to often builds up... and the listener feels that the station repeats some songs too often is created... because one single play of a song that is disliked is interpreted this way in the real world, where perception is reality.

 

[amfmsw]

Regarding Music Research on Christmas Tunes themselves, B-101 (WBEB) in Philly, one of America's top billing stations, and America's ONLY independently owned major market FM, did their's this year with an online survey. Listeners could go to their website, go through hundred+ tune clips, and rate them. They could leave at any time, and return and pick up exactly on the list where they left off as the site left a marking cookie on the computer. It gave the station a treasure trove of volunteered demo/lifestyle information as well.

And you can argue with DE till the cows come home, but in the end, the research backs him. I do disagree with the methodology, and believe it to be too clinical at times. For example, yes, persons do expect commercials to be played as the price of admission to free entertainment. But when you run 8 minutes in a row plus promos in and out, you've raised the ticket price too high. That's Philly radio, and it's stiffleing and painful to listen to. I'd rather have 3 stopsets. And what if YOU were the 8th advertiser of 8 commercials, paying the same rate as the 1st business? I'd be FURIOUS.

 

[CTListener]

And what if YOU were the 8th advertiser of 8 commercials, paying the same rate as the 1st business? I'd be FURIOUS.

I'd be overjoyed. The last commercial before the music starts is the last advertiser impression the listener gets. That's golden. And that ad gets the bonus of reaching the rare tune-away listener who returns from his second-choice station (which may be in a stopset of its own) to see if the music is back on his first choice and hears the last commercial instead. It's the poor slobs in the middle of the stopset who suffer; their messages are buried, and the tune-away listener misses them completely.

 

[davideduardo]

B-101 (WBEB) in Philly, one of America's top billing stations, and America's ONLY independently owned major market FM,

Not quite. KKGO in LA is a bigger signal in a much bigger market... and locally and independently owned. I can think of a half-dozen more examples, all in the top 20 markets.

 

[landtuna]

Anyone over the age of 18 who has been listening to "radio" for over five years or so has already developed the ability to tune out undesirable content (commercials). As most "radio" listening is done as a secondary task it is very easy to do.

There may have been a time when listeners to Jack Benny or big orchestra's listened intently to commercials but those days have long since passed.

 

[CTListener]

Remember, advertising acts subliminally. As long as the radio is on, you're not completely ignoring what's coming out of the speakers, as much as you may think you are.

 

[landtuna]

Remember, advertising acts subliminally. As long as the radio is on, you're not completely ignoring what's coming out of the speakers, as much as you may think you are.

Without disclosing what you are doing beforehand.....ask any radio listener, at the end of a stop set, what they just heard.

I would be amazed if they could recall even 10% of the foregoing.

Ask them what the name of the last song played was and you will get a better answer.

 

[michael hagerty]

Mister Eduardo, it's true that Howard Stern had a low rating here in Los Angeles...but he still did a lot better than Don Imus's brief run on KLAC! New Yorkers and Angelenos are different breeds. After KRTH morning man Robert W. Morgan died, one of the DJs who did an on-air audition to replace him was Dan Ingram.

A couple of further notes: By the 90s, Stern was much bigger than Imus. Add to that that Howard was on FM and Don was on AM and it's no contest. When was the last time any morning show on a full-power L.A. FM lost to KLAC?

Stern may have grown up back east and spent his career no further west than Detroit, but I'd argue that his appeal transcends geography.

Imus, born and raised in Arizona, a DJ in Palmdale, Stockton and Sacramento before going to Cleveland and New York, influenced by and best friends with Robert W. Morgan...is considered a New York act. Ditto Scott Shannon, a southern boy who's life dream was to jock at KHJ.

The only jocks I can think of that did equally well in New York and L.A. would be B. Mitchel Reed, Walt Baby Love and Jay Lawrence. Other than that, jocks who worked both markets (Bob Dayton, Al Lohman, Hollywood Hamilton, Joe Niagra) tended to do much better in one than the other.

By the way, the KRTH auditions (Dan Ingram, World Famous Tom Murphy, Dave Diamond, Charlie Tuna, Charlie Van Dyke) were a stunt. KRTH's choice before Robert W. died was Van Dyke. They might have used audience reactions to the "auditions" if anything happened to Van Dyke, but barring that, it was already decided.

 

[davideduardo]

Without disclosing what you are doing beforehand.....ask any radio listener, at the end of a stop set, what they just heard.

I would be amazed if they could recall even 10% of the foregoing.

Advertisers are well aware of that. The cost of advertising is allocated to the cost of goods sold... not the cost per impression.

And advertisers understand that only a few out of many impressions triggers a response.

 

[amfmsw]

DE: No one runs 10 spots in a row? SeriouslY? Check the Philly/Jersey Shore scene, especially during the summer.

The Philly classic rock station and classic hit signal both run cluster fuq breaks on weekends with promos and junk talk and spots easily totalling 10. Meanwhile, just south at the Jersey Shore, a Rock Station and it's sister AM Oldies station will run 12 to 15 minutes, starting at :45 to the Legal ID at the top of the hour EVERY hours 6a-10p. I've heard the FM rocker run up to 30 minutes per hour from Memeorial Day through Labor Day.

As far as desiring to being the 8th of 8 ads in a row...it's all yours my friends. That quarter hour number is blown. The audience number at the end of the stopset is nothing like the beginning numbers. This is confirmed by RAB, not Arbitron. As the set continues to unfurl, the audience near the buttons unwravels, gets frisky and begin the search for entertainment. Arbitron never says anything negative to upset the applecart for its' subscribers. The Radio Advertising Bureau is more truthful. Good creative copy does help.

 

[CTListener]

The Radio Advertising Bureau is more truthful.

An advertising trade group? Truthful?

 

[davideduardo]

DE: No one runs 10 spots in a row? SeriouslY? Check the Philly/Jersey Shore scene, especially during the summer.

You bring up a good point... many vacation markets have to make all their profit in the short "season" and abuse of the listener is known to happen. It helps that those are either unrated markets or they are small enough not to have a Summer book. Another example is Traverse City, MI.

As far as desiring to being the 8th of 8 ads in a row...it's all yours my friends. That quarter hour number is blown. The audience number at the end of the stopset is nothing like the beginning numbers.

Tune occurs almost totally in the first spot or two, and using PPM markets as a basis, the total loss is actually surprisingly small.

http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Arbitron/What Happens When The Spots Come On.pdf

This is confirmed by RAB, not Arbitron.

The advantage of the Arbitron data is that it is not based on a survey or poll... it is just a tabulation of meter behaviour before, during and after stopsets.

Arbitron never says anything negative to upset the applecart for its' subscribers. The Radio Advertising Bureau is more truthful. Good creative copy does help.

Arbitron presents all manner of tabulations on its data... this is not about "truth" or "fiction" but about looking at audience behaviour from different perspectives.

As to not saying anything negative, I'd disagree: just days before the merger announcement, Arbitron stunned the industry by showing a tabulation based on the most recent RADAR sweep where overall TSL was off by about a half an hour and in younger demos by nearly an hour compared to the previous year.

 

[PirateJohnny]

...Almost every one of us is sick of Brown Eyed Girl, Oh Pretty Woman, Do Wah Diddy Diddy, Happy Together and Na Na Hey Hey Kiss Him Goodbye. There are many songs we're sick of, but those five are the most cited. ...

These are on my list of "Crank it up" songs...

Back to the discussion. This is good. I have felt that consultants removing the "tune out" songs and behavior (like personality DJs) make radio boring. It's like only serving hamburgers because some don't like steak and some don't like meatloaf.

My pet peeve (about oldies or classic hits) is the "encyclopedia delivery": "On this date in 1963 we lost a president and bread was 39 cents a loaf", etc.. I would love to hear an oldies station sound completely like it did when the songs were current. Today's younger listeners missed that excitement the first time around.

 

[CTListener]

My pet peeve (about oldies or classic hits) is the "encyclopedia delivery": "On this date in 1963 we lost a president and bread was 39 cents a loaf", etc.. I would love to hear an oldies station sound completely like it did when the songs were current. Today's younger listeners missed that excitement the first time around.

Or the "teaser" going into a stopset that's been taken straight from Wikipedia: "Up next, a song that Neil Diamond wrote about Caroline Kennedy!" (Sweet Caroline) or "Up next, a song Elton John wrote for his friend, tennis star Billie Jean King!" (Philadelphia Freedom) or "Up next, the No. 1 single of 1977, which spent an incredible nine weeks at No. 1!" (You Light Up My ... Oops, sorry, we can't play that one! It doesn't test well!")

 

[davideduardo]

I have felt that consultants removing the "tune out" songs and behavior (like personality DJs) make radio boring. It's like only serving hamburgers because some don't like steak and some don't like meatloaf.

As I have said before, I am mystified with the insistence in blaming "consultants" for everything that ails radio.

First, consultants are not all that common in radio today. Consultants were needed in the era when one company could only own 7 AM and 7 FM stations and that was 20 years ago or more. Today, bigger ownership caps allow companies to have in-house programmers who help and steer the local programmers ... and few have outside consultants.

Second, the role of the consultant was generally not to pick the songs. Consultants brought multi-market experience, major market success and skills like research specification and interpretation, successful promotion design, talent contacts and such to the individual station that could not afford that degree of talent and expertise. Most were successful programmers who found they were in demand and could make more sharing their skills with multiple stations.

Another often-seen "bash" focuses on research, with the phrase "over-researched" cropping up often. Tell me: how can a station get listener feedback too often? Is it truly evil to ask listeners what they want and to deliver a product that is constructed to please the greatest number of people possible?

And then there is the bashing of stations that play 700 or 800 classic hits tunes when there are "thousands of songs that were hits..." Besides not being true (few of the lower charting songs were really hits and even fewer are still hits today), we have to remember that the greatest days for pop music radio were when Top 40 stations played 30 to 40 total songs and they played the top tunes every 90 minutes.