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Which is the bigger "tune out" factor?

Biondi4Mayor said:
Thanks Oldies for the link, I love hearing every #1 in order!!!

Greatest Hits related formats' biggest problem is the "age" thing. Then in this regard, testing is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. The primary audience, as David pointed out, will skew "young" enough to avoid the "dreaded" 55+. What it doesn't account for are even younger listeners that would perhaps enjoy and recognize the same music. Back to the self-fulfilling prophecy part, the fact that testing could range from a few hundred to 1200 (I think David mentioned this number a while back perhaps I'm mistaken) is the problem. The playlists are no bigger than this, so essentially the only thing getting testing is what is already being played. Hence my comment on the Honey Cone song earlier, it's stuck on the "black list'' of oldies since it would appear that stations don't have the room to sufficiently test a wider multitude of hits.

About 3 years ago, I joined one of those online fan clubs for our local "oldies" station. I did it because each week there would be a song test of 30 songs that you could rate. For over the 2 years I did that, there was NEVER one song that was off their standard playlist. So, no variety or weeding out of overdone songs was apparent. Knowing this, I made sure to skew my own results. So since there was too much Elton John in my opinion, I would tell it that I "hated" the song, and wanted to "hear it less". But when a song by The Supremes (a group with a multitude of ignored hits in my opinion) would come up - usually only "Baby Love" - I would tell it that I "loved" it and wanted it more "often" - which wasn't true. I wanted variety from both acts, and saw that wasn't going to happen. My point is two-fold:
1. There is little evidence to suggest that tests are testing other similar songs and hits other than a station's current playlist. Therefore, change and addaptation is impossible and numerous songs go unplayed.

and-
2. There is no good placebo that would make testing songs are good, and conclusive scientific experiment. The people know why they are there. It is known that people take more extreme stances in groups - polarization. Therefore, songs will appear to be far more liked or unliked than they likely are. In my case, it did not take long for me to notice that the tests were far from "original", so it was the lesser of two evils - I'll take "Baby Love" for spin number 1,000 over "Crocodile Rock" 's spin number 2,000. But songs like "Love Is Here And Now You're Gone" or "Island Girl" went unplayed and untested.

^^^ Had an editing issue but would like to add---

In regards to the younger crowd I alluded to, today I was in a college bookstore that usually plays a AAA format, only to hear a classic hits station. My point is that perhaps greatest hits formats should then include younger audience members in the testing to guage familiarity. Since the testing group is hand picked, you'll get out what you put in.
 
Even now, I'm re-dubbing "Island Girl" to add to my AM1620 playlist and it will be on the air in 5 minutes.
And in normal weekly rotation....thanks guys.
 
Wow! I never expected 500 responses and 50 pages of replies when I started this topic. I have noticed, as have others, that this topic is generating very professional replies, with very few off-topic or bashing replies. Keep it up.

I am coming around to DE's way of thinking.

Do Oldies (or Classic Hits) stations program only to listeners who heard the oldies as currents, or do they go after new generations who enjoy songs older than they are? Is that latter group large enough to matter to advertisers?

Corvairs are cool. In 1967 the new Camaro was mentioned as being a front engined Corvair in a few articles.

Now some personal notes. I am realizing I am an uber-anomaly. I was born in 1957, which means I hit 55 late last year. I grew up within earshot of Nashville, TN radio-1510WLAC, WMAK, WKDA-FM. I also had chances to listen to WAKY and WKLO out of Louisville, KY and of course WLS. I heard classic music as a soundtrack on Looney Tunes cartoons. Nashville TV stations had Country flavored morning and noon live shows. The local AM Top 40 station played Top 40 while I grew up. It was managed professionally, but staffed by local college students. That local college is the reason for the Top 40 experience I had while growing up. My hometown in the late 60s/early 70s was interesting to the record industry. The college attracted a nice cross-section of students from across the country. That Top 40 station earned over a dozen gold records because it got records ahead of the nation, as a result of the "test group" of college students. Weekends were always "Memory Making Weekends" with a heavy rotation of oldies which increased my exposure to the older records. I grew up listening to Top 40 radio and wanted to be a part of it. I did from 1975 to 1977 and again from 1980 to 1983 on that station.

At that time I was seeing stations in the area start flipping formats. Some were going Oldies and had to acquire new libraries. My station had it's own massive library to fall back on. I noticed the new libraries were weeding out a large number of songs. That seemed to continue through the years as more stations flipped to Oldies. I started hearing about consultants being hired and the talk was they were using statistics from other (larger) markets in the smaller markets near where I lived. I saw the "local flavor" disappearing from local stations. That's where my dislike for consultants comes from, DE.

I have always enjoyed Top 40 radio, and a few buttons on my car radio are set for local "Hit" stations, as well as Oldies, rock and country. My iTunes library (over 22,000 songs and on computer for convenience) contains Patsy Cline, Buddy Holly, Led Zeppelin (including over 250 bootleg concert recordings), an alternate take of "Brown Eyed Girl" as well as six dance remixes and the original "Call Me Maybe". I do, however, need to add Waterloo Sunset. Some of these posts have mentioned songs nobody wants to hear anymore. Ha! Some of them are on my "crank it up" list. (As I type this, Get Wet's "Just So Lonely" is playing)

I have had occasion to play music for groups of people much younger than my favorite songs. As they hear these songs for the first time, many are intrigued by the older music and many commented on how good it is and how they prefer some of the older music to the music of their generation. But that sample is too small to be relevant, right DE?

I have come to realize there never will be a radio station that I can't live without, especially as I get older. I have actually installed an automation program (Radiologik) on my computer to replace iTunes for my in-home listening. I told you I am an uber-anomaly. I have also acquired most of the 60s and 70s jingles from that station I grew up listening to and DJing on. I'm sorting out my day/night daypart playlists now and I might put all this online for this Radio Discussion group this (Memory Making) weekend.
 
PirateJohnny said:
Do Oldies (or Classic Hits) stations program only to listeners who heard the oldies as currents, or do they go after new generations who enjoy songs older than they are? Is that latter group large enough to matter to advertisers?

Right now, Classic Hits is aiming at 35-45 year olds (the core of the 25-54 demo). Those people were born between 1968 and 1978. Even if you figure they started listening to the radio at 10, the oldest of that core (the 45 year olds) started hearing the currents (assuming they listened to Top 40 instead of another format) in 1978. They turned 16 in 1984, graduated high school in 1986 and graduated college in 1988.

As you can see...the music now is still a tick too old for that group of people.

They're not so much going after new generations who enjoy songs older than they are, but playing songs that the core audience enjoys without calling attention to the age of the record. Eventually, I expect the format will get back in synch with its demo and Classic Hits will be songs mostly from the 80s and 90s.

Meantime, given that most of the Classic Hits in the Top 10 markets are in the top 5-7 stations on a monthly basis, they're doing fine. As David noted, stations like KRTH have to be careful that the 55+ part of their audience doesn't reach critical mass and turn off the advertisers.
 
Tom Wells said:
Even now, I'm re-dubbing "Island Girl" to add to my AM1620 playlist and it will be on the air in 5 minutes.
And in normal weekly rotation....thanks guys.

:) LOL, glad to hear someone is interested in some originality!
 
Biondi4Mayor said:
Tom Wells said:
Even now, I'm re-dubbing "Island Girl" to add to my AM1620 playlist and it will be on the air in 5 minutes.
And in normal weekly rotation....thanks guys.

:) LOL, glad to hear someone is interested in some originality!

And are we sure "Island Girl" is being ignored on Classic Hits stations? I hear it on KOOL-FM in Phoenix.
 
michael hagerty said:
Biondi4Mayor said:
Tom Wells said:
Even now, I'm re-dubbing "Island Girl" to add to my AM1620 playlist and it will be on the air in 5 minutes.
And in normal weekly rotation....thanks guys.

:) LOL, glad to hear someone is interested in some originality!

And are we sure "Island Girl" is being ignored on Classic Hits stations? I hear it on KOOL-FM in Phoenix.

Well, I don't hear it often where I am, and a dozen other overdone ones by him get dibs on airplay. My point in my original post though wasn't based on specifics, just an example to get my point out.
 
michael hagerty said:
And are we sure "Island Girl" is being ignored on Classic Hits stations? I hear it on KOOL-FM in Phoenix.

I doubt KRTH plays it. It's too good of a song to be igonored by classic hits radio. "Nights on Broadway" from 1975 is another one.
 
firepoint525 said:
It also means that five years from now, when I am 55, you can drop the '80s from your playlist, but you won't ever hear from me again. Good luck with programming the '90s. You're gonna need it!

Classic Hits will never just be 80's and 90's..not gonna happen anytime soon. There's just too much 90's that is not testable (hair bands, rap, slow R&B, grunge...) I just don't think stations like KRTH or CBS-FM will be playing this stuff. I think you'll be safe for another 7 - 10 years.
 
Biondi4Mayor said:
About 3 years ago, I joined one of those online fan clubs for our local "oldies" station. I did it because each week there would be a song test of 30 songs that you could rate. For over the 2 years I did that, there was NEVER one song that was off their standard playlist. So, no variety or weeding out of overdone songs was apparent. Knowing this, I made sure to skew my own results. So since there was too much Elton John in my opinion, I would tell it that I "hated" the song, and wanted to "hear it less". But when a song by The Supremes (a group with a multitude of ignored hits in my opinion) would come up - usually only "Baby Love" - I would tell it that I "loved" it and wanted it more "often" - which wasn't true.

Ha, I'll remember that if I ever take one of those music tests. :D

Glad you liked the KRTH countdown link. Too bad radio can't have fun with it's audiences anymore.
 
Biondi4Mayor said:
The primary audience, as David pointed out, will skew "young" enough to avoid the "dreaded" 55+. What it doesn't account for are even younger listeners that would perhaps enjoy and recognize the same music.

Every time you test audience groups that are not in a station's core, you get people who know a few of the songs, and either score all the rest badly or as "unfamiliar" thus making that respondent of little value.

With the number of stations available in most rated markets, trying to broaden the demos of a classic hits station is near-impossible. Music stations have a core where most see 80% of the listeners in roughly a 20-year span... to the fringes, the incidence of listening is much less.

Classic hits may look good in 35-54. Actually, they look good in 39-54, with a lot of 55-59 that we just don't look at. So the viable core is 15 years. One could test younger people, but anything we find out from that group generally would cause the 50-54 or even the 45-54 to like us less, and we won't do it anyways.

People have tried. They have failed.

Back to the self-fulfilling prophecy part, the fact that testing could range from a few hundred to 1200 (I think David mentioned this number a while back perhaps I'm mistaken) is the problem. The playlists are no bigger than this, so essentially the only thing getting testing is what is already being played.

I mentioned 1200. For a station that played, at the time, about 800 songs. So there were about 400 each time that did not pass. Some of the borderline songs got retested later... but each successive test (at one point we did 6 a year) we put in every manner of song that might be interesting, might have recovered from earlier burn, or which had rested enough to tolerate occasional play.

Over the course of a year, probably 1000 titles that were not on the playlist got tested. Over a couple of years, the number approached 2,000. Obviously, a song that tests miserably is not going to be retested... if everyone hates it today, as time goes by it will not improve.

About 3 years ago, I joined one of those online fan clubs for our local "oldies" station. I did it because each week there would be a song test of 30 songs that you could rate.

Those listener panels where the listener self-selects themselves to 'participate are simply "loyalty" involvement moves. I don't know of one station that ever implemented anything based on those panels... but it generally made the participant loyal and encouraged them to spread the word that "KZZZ listens to its listeners".

Yeah, right.

10 years ago or so, I switched an AC station in a market of about 17 million to classic rock. We ran full page ads in a paper that had a circulation of over 1.2 million, and printed every song we might play. Listeners were to tune in and score each one. We got an amazing 80,000 back, using collection boxes at a local convenience store chain.

We also did a music test of 100 people. We implemented the 100 person test, and took pictures of the 80,000 newspaper forms to use in sales material. The station debuted at #1 with over a 20 share. And when we tabulated a small random batch of the 80,000 it turns out that the results closely paralleled the "real test."


There is little evidence to suggest that tests are testing other similar songs and hits other than a station's current playlist. Therefore, change and addaptation is impossible and numerous songs go unplayed.

Actually, everyone tests "what if songs" and over the course of many tests they have examined every song that might be useful.

The people know why they are there.

Yes, people are told they are there because the company doing the test has been hired to help radio stations in the area provide the music they like. And they are told that there is no wrong or right answer.


It is known that people take more extreme stances in groups - polarization

There is little polarization at a music test as there is no interaction within the test group. While a focus group may create a group dynamic, including the establishing of alpha personalities and such, music tests are anonymous and the participants don't talk... usually they score the songs, today, with a dial... or they may even, once recruited, do the test at home using a computer or tablet.

. Therefore, songs will appear to be far more liked or unliked than they likely are. In my case, it did not take long for me to notice that the tests were far from "original",...

Generally, a person attends a test once. One night (or two sessions if there are loads of songs) and then they are not asked back again. They don't know what station ordered the test (unless the station wants to send a jock to say "thanks" at the very end of the test) and they don't have time to analyze what songs were and were not there.
 
oldies76 said:
michael hagerty said:
And are we sure "Island Girl" is being ignored on Classic Hits stations? I hear it on KOOL-FM in Phoenix.

I doubt KRTH plays it. It's too good of a song to be igonored by classic hits radio. "Nights on Broadway" from 1975 is another one.

I'd be surprised, given what KRTH plays, if they aren't playing both.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Obviously, a song that tests miserably is not going to be retested... if everyone hates it today, as time goes by it will not improve.

If that song tested miserably last year, don't you think it could test far better a year later, with a whole new group of music testers? Maybe it might average out to "neutral" the second time around. Who knows.

Take a song like "Year of the Cat" by Al Stewart, a nice, mellow hit song from early 1977 (which btw, I have not heard on radio for many years). Is that song testing "hate it".? I would think a memorable song like that would score at least "likeable" and be aired.

Several friends I have spoken to, like that song....so why isn't it on the air?

I'm just using that particular song, as an example. Of course, there are hundreds more.

If a station is conducting a music test, then they should choose folks that are familiar with real classic hits (the upper end of the target demo) and mix those results with a few from the lower end of the 35-54, for the recent "classic hit" choices.

Hopefully the test admistrators are not asking a 35 year old, to rate songs that 50 year olds are familiar with...that will certainly throw off the results.
 
michael hagerty said:
oldies76 said:
michael hagerty said:
And are we sure "Island Girl" is being ignored on Classic Hits stations? I hear it on KOOL-FM in Phoenix.

I doubt KRTH plays it. It's too good of a song to be igonored by classic hits radio. "Nights on Broadway" from 1975 is another one.

I'd be surprised, given what KRTH plays, if they aren't playing both.

They're both still played on WDRC-FM Hartford, which has trimmed its playlist greatly over the past two years.
 
oldies76 said:
firepoint525 said:
It also means that five years from now, when I am 55, you can drop the '80s from your playlist, but you won't ever hear from me again. Good luck with programming the '90s. You're gonna need it!

Classic Hits will never just be 80's and 90's..not gonna happen anytime soon. There's just too much 90's that is not testable (hair bands, rap, slow R&B, grunge...) I just don't think stations like KRTH or CBS-FM will be playing this stuff. I think you'll be safe for another 7 - 10 years.

Sure it will. Classic Hits is not a type of music. It's past hits that test well today among adults 35-44. The stuff that doesn't test won't get played (just like now) but there'll be 500-800 titles that will test just fine.

"Smells Like Teen Spirit" is this generation of 40 year olds' "Born To Be Wild". If Eminem tests, he'll get played. Ditto R. Kelly.
 
oldies76 said:
DavidEduardo said:
Obviously, a song that tests miserably is not going to be retested... if everyone hates it today, as time goes by it will not improve.

If that song tested miserably last year, don't you think it could test far better a year later, with a whole new group of music testers? Maybe it might average out to "neutral" the second time around. Who knows.

Take a song like "Year of the Cat" by Al Stewart, a nice, mellow hit song from early 1977 (which btw, I have not heard on radio for many years). Is that song testing "hate it".? I would think a memorable song like that would score at least "likeable" and be aired.

Several friends I have spoken to, like that song....so why isn't it on the air?

I'm just using that particular song, as an example. Of course, there are hundreds more.

If a station is conducting a music test, then they should choose folks that are familiar with real classic hits (the upper end of the target demo) and mix those results with a few from the lower end of the 35-54, for the recent "classic hit" choices.

Hopefully the test admistrators are not asking a 35 year old, to rate songs that 50 year olds are familiar with...that will certainly throw off the results.

If the core of the demographic you're targeting is 35-44, why are you asking a 50 year old anything?
 
michael hagerty said:
If the core of the demographic you're targeting is 35-44, why are you asking a 50 year old anything?

Classic hits demographics are 35-54.
 
oldies76 said:
If that song tested miserably last year, don't you think it could test far better a year later, with a whole new group of music testers? Maybe it might average out to "neutral" the second time around. Who knows.

When and only when that might happen is if the first time a song is tested it is too "new" for the core to respond to... maybe a few years later, as the people age out of the test target and younger people replace them it might test. In that case, you are right... retesting might be a good idea.


If a station is conducting a music test, then they should choose folks that are familiar with real classic hits (the upper end of the target demo) and mix those results with a few from the lower end of the 35-54, for the recent "classic hit" choices.

A music test is intended to tell what songs to play on the radio today. So most of the test is going to be done against the super-core of the station. In the case of most classic hits, that might be 39-49 year olds.

Why test 50-54? They are not going to add anything to the results that makes the station inviting to 40-44 year olds who have to like the station to tune it in regularly. And any younger will get peeps who have not aged into the demos where the format can be strong.
 
oldies76 said:
michael hagerty said:
If the core of the demographic you're targeting is 35-44, why are you asking a 50 year old anything?

Classic hits demographics are 35-54.

Classic Hits currently tends to do best 35-54, but the programmers are trying to steer that to 25-54.

Even if it was 35-54, the core of that would be 42-47, 50 would still be four years from aging out of the demo and the question remains why are you asking a 50 year old anything.

By the way, the dead center of 35-54...44.5 (round it up to 45)? That's someone born in 1968 who was 9 when Year Of The Cat was a current. He/she was 16 in 1984, graduated high school in 1988 and college in 1992. Money For Nothing, yes. Van Halen's Jump, yes. Year of the Cat, no.

By the way, I love Year Of The Cat (and the less-successful followups Time Passages and Song On The Radio). But I'm about to turn 57. The listeners to the station I was programming in 1977, when I played Year Of The Cat? Well, I was going after 25-49 then. Dead center was 37. So they're....

73.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Why test 50-54? They are not going to add anything to the results that makes the station inviting to 40-44 year olds who have to like the station to tune it in regularly.

Well, since they listen too and they are part of the target (50-54), their ratings in a music test should be incorporated with the others to mix up a station with more "tested well" music from a slightly wider range of years. In other words, more songs. A 50 year old today, familiar with 1977 music would be at an advantage over, say a 35 year old testing that same music. A 50 year old will "approve" older classic hits, than a 35-40 years old would. Just a thought....
 
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