Who Goes To FM First? KNX or KFI

[calguy]

CBS could make KCBS, KNX-FM again, and could potentially help KROQ by doing so as many have also said that KROQ lost numbers to JACK.

That sounds good to move the KCBS-FM calls over to 106.9 FM in San Francisco since most younger Bay area residents listen to KCBS on FM and drop the KFRC FM but I'm sot sure if Jack is really ready to change its call letters? and 2 KCBS in theory should have went to 1070 and 93.1 in LA and KQW should in theory have kept its call letters on 740 or 106.9. but the KCBS calls have been in San Francisco since the days when San Francisco was seen as the big media market.

Moving the KCBS FM call letters back to SF wouldn't be a problem, but they've got the KFRC call letters parked on 106.9, iconic call letters that CBS may not want to lose. 106.9 has not been a CBS property that long, so the KCBS call letters were never there as the old KCBS FM was at 97.3 and 98.9 before that. The KNX call letters are almost as iconic in LA, so why change them? Oh and San Francisco is still a big media market, it's a top 5 major market at that.

 

[davideduardo]

That sounds good to move the KCBS-FM calls over to 106.9 FM in San Francisco since most younger Bay area residents listen to KCBS on FM and drop the KFRC FM but i'm sot sure if Jack is really ready to change its call letters? and 2 KCBS in theory should have went to 1070 and 93.1 in LA and KQW should in theory have kept its call letters on 740 or 106.9. but the KCBS calls have been in San Francisco since the days when San Francisco was seen as the big media market.

It really does not matter what calls are on which station. The FM calls on the KCBS (AM) simulcast can be KRAP and KRAP will not show up anywhere in Arbitron reports since single line reporting for full simulcasts show up as the key station only.

San Francisco is radio market #4, bigger than Philly, DC, Dallas, Houston, Detroit, Atlanta, Boston, etc. It still is a big media market.

 

[casual observer]

I'm surprised no one has raised the obvious option for Merlin in LA: KXOS. Grupo Radio Centro isn't making the progress it hoped for in LA and if they want an early out, Emmis would likely grant it and then sell controlling interest to Randy Michaels and Merlin. That keeps the property in their portfolio, brings in needed cash, and helps Michaels complete his dream trifecta. Everybody wins in that scenario.

As for CBS, JACK is an excellent flanker for KROQ and happens to make a lot of money with virtually no overhead. Unlikely they will blow that up in America's most lucrative radio market.

 

[calguy]

I'm surprised no one has raised the obvious option for Merlin in LA: KXOS. Grupo Radio Centro isn't making the progress it hoped for in LA and if they want an early out, Emmis would likely grant it and then sell controlling interest to Randy Michaels and Merlin. That keeps the property in their portfolio, brings in needed cash, and helps Michaels complete his dream trifecta. Everybody wins in that scenario.

Actually the Grupo Radio Centro 93.9 suggestion was covered in page one of this thread...

 

[davideduardo]

As for CBS, JACK is an excellent flanker for KROQ and happens to make a lot of money with virtually no overhead.

A station that is #5 in billing in LA is more than a flanker; it's a position of its own. KROQ and Jack are complementary, just as KBIG and KIIS or KOST and KBIG are complementary. But they stand on their own, each of them.

Overhead is not made up mostly of airstaff pay; whether the jocks are live or not does not save all that much when we are talking about stations billing way over $30 million a year. And then, Jack has pretty good production guys in the air studio all the time, thus the always refreshed drops and listener based content. Yes, they don't have a big morning show but neither do a number of LA stations. And the cost for rent, untilities, insurance, sales, accounting, legal, management, engineering, music licenses, etc., etc., are the same...

 

[recto101]

CBS could make KCBS, KNX-FM again, and could potentially help KROQ by doing so as many have also said that KROQ lost numbers to JACK.

That sounds good to move the KCBS-FM calls over to 106.9 FM in San Francisco since most younger Bay area residents listen to KCBS on FM and drop the KFRC FM but I'm sot sure if Jack is really ready to change its call letters? and 2 KCBS in theory should have went to 1070 and 93.1 in LA and KQW should in theory have kept its call letters on 740 or 106.9. but the KCBS calls have been in San Francisco since the days when San Francisco was seen as the big media market.

Moving the KCBS FM call letters back to SF wouldn't be a problem, but they've got the KFRC call letters parked on 106.9, iconic call letters that CBS may not want to lose. 106.9 has not been a CBS property that long, so the KCBS call letters were never there as the old KCBS FM was at 97.3 and 98.9 before that. The KNX call letters are almost as iconic in LA, so why change them? Oh and San Francisco is still a big media market, it's a top 5 major market at that.

You're Right I really meant when San Francisco was a bigger market than LA until the 1950's when market research said that LA is a bigger market than San Francisco.

 

[justpassingthough]

That sounds good to move the KCBS-FM calls over to 106.9 FM in San Francisco since most younger Bay area residents listen to KCBS on FM and drop the KFRC FM but i'm sot sure if Jack is really ready to change its call letters? and 2 KCBS in theory should have went to 1070 and 93.1 in LA and KQW should in theory have kept its call letters on 740 or 106.9. but the KCBS calls have been in San Francisco since the days when San Francisco was seen as the big media market.

It really does not matter what calls are on which station. The FM calls on the KCBS (AM) simulcast can be KRAP and KRAP will not show up anywhere in Arbitron reports since single line reporting for full simulcasts show up as the key station only.

San Francisco is radio market #4, bigger than Philly, DC, Dallas, Houston, Detroit, Atlanta, Boston, etc. It still is a big media market.

I agree that call signs mean nearly nothing now, so I was surprised when CBS Radio changes the calls of KLSX to KAMP. What percentage of Amp's listeners even know or care what the calls of the station are? I do, but I'm a dork on this board. I'm guessing the average listener knows it either as Amp, Amp Radio or 97.1- and thats it.

 

[calguy]

That sounds good to move the KCBS-FM calls over to 106.9 FM in San Francisco since most younger Bay area residents listen to KCBS on FM and drop the KFRC FM but i'm sot sure if Jack is really ready to change its call letters? and 2 KCBS in theory should have went to 1070 and 93.1 in LA and KQW should in theory have kept its call letters on 740 or 106.9. but the KCBS calls have been in San Francisco since the days when San Francisco was seen as the big media market.

It really does not matter what calls are on which station. The FM calls on the KCBS (AM) simulcast can be KRAP and KRAP will not show up anywhere in Arbitron reports since single line reporting for full simulcasts show up as the key station only.

San Francisco is radio market #4, bigger than Philly, DC, Dallas, Houston, Detroit, Atlanta, Boston, etc. It still is a big media market.

I agree that call signs mean nearly nothing now, so I was surprised when CBS Radio changes the calls of KLSX to KAMP. What percentage of Amp's listeners even know or care what the calls of the station are? I do, but I'm a dork on this board. I'm guessing the average listener knows it either as Amp, Amp Radio or 97.1- and thats it.

Call letters may mean nothing to all but the older listeners who remember when stations used their call letters front and center, but they won't go away anytime soon. Stations have to be identified some way, and for the FCC call letters are still it. I'm sure that there are listeners today who don't even know that stations still have them, or ever did because for the last 30 years stations have been moving in the direction of using a name for their property like Kiss, Coast, The River, Jack & Bob. Doubt the listener of today would even care about this...

 

[davideduardo]

I agree that call signs mean nearly nothing now, so I was surprised when CBS Radio changes the calls of KLSX to KAMP. What percentage of Amp's listeners even know or care what the calls of the station are? I do, but I'm a dork on this board. I'm guessing the average listener knows it either as Amp, Amp Radio or 97.1- and thats it.

Arbitron uses calls to identify stations for their reports. There is some advantage in having calls that either phonetically identify the station or have tradition... because advertisers will know what the station is that way, without having to look up the format details.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

I agree that call signs mean nearly nothing now, so I was surprised when CBS Radio changes the calls of KLSX to KAMP. What percentage of Amp's listeners even know or care what the calls of the station are? I do, but I'm a dork on this board. I'm guessing the average listener knows it either as Amp, Amp Radio or 97.1- and thats it.

Arbitron uses calls to identify stations for their reports. There is some advantage in having calls that either phonetically identify the station or have tradition... because advertisers will know what the station is that way, without having to look up the format details.

The fact of the matter is some calls are brands and some are not.

KFI has a definite brand that translates to a position on the FM dial, or anwhere else for that matter, much more than their position liner of "More Stimulating Talk Radio". Their marketing department has done a great job over the years equating KFI with "More Stimulating Talk Radio". Therefore its just easier to use KFI, because everyone knows what KFI stands for.

It was the same in the early to mid 80s when people started using the phrase "KROQ Music" to mean the type of new wave and punk bands that were still very much within the rock realm, but not played on other more traditional rock stations and could only be heard on KROQ. KROQ transformed the ordinary rock station calls of the 70's to a whole separate brand in the 80's. It was (almost) world famous.

 

[MarioMania]

Would this work

Move KNX-FM to 93.1 dropping the KCBS-FM calls

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9

But where would the KFRC calls be parked in the Bay Area?? Can CBS get 610 back??

 

[radioguy39nj]

Merlin's FM newsers are off to a rocky start at best in New York and Chicago. A new spoken word format takes time to develop, but WWWN Chicago and WEMP New York aren't making CBS' established all-news stations WBBM (Chicago) and WINS and WCBS (New York) lose sleep at night! In Chicago, CBS blew up underperforming AC Fresh 105.9 and installed a simulcast of WBBM before WWWN started their news format.

Merlin's approach is a female and family friendly (so they say) approach to all-news in an attempt to poach female listeners from their favorite FM music stations, rather than established news and talk outlets. WWWN and WEMP have not been critically well-received. It remains to be seen how they'll do ratings-wise. If Merlin wants to give the format a go in LA, good luck to them!

 

[ercjncpr]

Actually I had a dream--for real-- a couple of nights ago that KFI-FM had begun a talk format on 92.3 this week with a completely separate lineup save for Rush and John/Ken, with part of the FM programming in Spanish! (yes, I know what Mr Eduardo would say to that!)

 

[calguy]

Would this work

Move KNX-FM to 93.1 dropping the KCBS-FM calls

Put KCBS-FM on 106.9

But where would the KFRC calls be parked in the Bay Area?? Can CBS get 610 back??

This is exactly my thinking, but yes, where "do" you park the KFRC calls? If I was CBS I would not let go of them.

 

[davideduardo]

This is exactly my thinking, but yes, where "do" you park the KFRC calls? If I was CBS I would not let go of them.

Of what value are those calls today? While 610 was one of the last AM CHRs to die, the calls have been misused since then, and likely have no equity... and if they do, it's in the geezer demos.

 

[calguy]

This is exactly my thinking, but yes, where "do" you park the KFRC calls? If I was CBS I would not let go of them.

Of what value are those calls today? While 610 was one of the last AM CHRs to die, the calls have been misused since then, and likely have no equity... and if they do, it's in the geezer demos.

David you may be correct, but I do believe that those calls could be resurrected with the right PD to run the format. If I were Dan Mason I would have Jhani Kaye put KFRC back on in SF. I bet it would sound great. Not only that, but if done right, they could attract more than geezers, people who may not know KFRC, but would like the station for it's sound and not it's call letters. It just seems to me that CBS in SF screwed the pooch with KFRC. It's their own fault that those calls are in the state they're in...

 

[michael hagerty]

So if KNX or KFI were to go to FM, I was wondering.... What would it take to have an FM, from a single transmitter site, have a 100% reliable signal 24/7 that the general population (not just DXers) would listen to - out to and possibly even beyond the farthest reaches of the AM's ultra-fringe skywave signal, where a seasoned DXer could just barely detect a trace of a QRSS CW carrier ... assuming they had +/- 200 kHz of spectrum on AM all to themselves?

I don't think you can, regardless of power. You still have line-of-sight issues with FM and TV.

 

[KeithE4]

So if KNX or KFI were to go to FM, I was wondering.... What would it take to have an FM, from a single transmitter site, have a 100% reliable signal 24/7 that the general population (not just DXers) would listen to - out to and possibly even beyond the farthest reaches of the AM's ultra-fringe skywave signal, where a seasoned DXer could just barely detect a trace of a QRSS CW carrier ... assuming they had +/- 200 kHz of spectrum on AM all to themselves?

Wave propagation on AM frequencies and the laws of physics preclude such things. A signal that would be spread between, say 600 and 800 kHz (center frequency of 700) would be stronger at 600 than 800. Besides, an antenna cut for MW with that kind of bandwidth would be physically impossible or would require some pretty bizarre engineering (multiple towers, each cut between 600 and 800 in 50 kHz intervals? I'd hate to design that phasing network!) that would be too expensive to be worth it.

Or am I the only one that doesn't like it when AM stations with a big footprint give up their coverage to move to FM?

You're not the only one that doesn't like it, but you are one of the very few (compared to the general, non-technical population) that care. The "big footprint" doesn't mean a thing to a station's bottom line, and those that want extended coverage can stream for a whole lot less money than what it costs to run a 50,000 watt transmitter.

Also speaking of listening in Metro areas... so it seems most listening is done inside the 10 mV/m contour. Are people insisting on 140 dB S/N ratios (unmodulated carrier vs. noise peaks from point-blank lightning strikes, for example) on the radio they listen to, or are most consumer radios so unsensitive that the minimum detectable signal during a region-wide power blackout (maybe even too weak to produce a het in SSB mode on such an equipped receiver) is 10 mV/m?

People want absolutely CLEAR reception - no fading, no noise, no hash (take the hint, IBOC pushers!), no buffering issues (still a problem with some online-radio apps), no nuthin'. Unless your reception is CLEAR, people tune elsewhere. Those of us that still like to DX are less than 1% (and I'm being kind) of a given station's listeners. And as I said, they don't matter to the bottom line. The on-air people taking calls, marketing people (some still brag about the mythical "38 states and Canada" that existed only for a very few stations, 60 years ago), and engineers probably like it, but it really doesn't matter anymore. This is 2011, not 1961. With some exceptions, like maybe religious, non-Spanish language ethnic, and maybe some community/non-comm broadcasters: AM is history! Get over it! It's dying a not-as-slow-as-last-year death. The number of AM sticks being turned off will increase in the coming years, barring some sort of miracle. The land that those tower(s) sit on will be more valuable as a housing development, school, strip-mall, or dump than it is as an AM station that almost no-one listens to.

 

[ercjncpr]

People want absolutely CLEAR reception - no fading, no noise, no hash (take the hint, IBOC pushers!), no buffering issues (still a problem with some online-radio apps), no nuthin'. Unless your reception is CLEAR, people tune elsewhere. Those of us that still like to DX are less than 1% (and I'm being kind) of a given station's listeners. And as I said, they don't matter to the bottom line. The on-air people taking calls, marketing people (some still brag about the mythical "38 states and Canada" that existed only for a very few stations, 60 years ago), and engineers probably like it, but it really doesn't matter anymore. This is 2011, not 1961. With some exceptions, like maybe religious, non-Spanish language ethnic, and maybe some community/non-comm broadcasters: AM is history! Get over it! It's dying a not-as-slow-as-last-year death. The number of AM sticks being turned off will increase in the coming years, barring some sort of miracle. The land that those tower(s) sit on will be more valuable as a housing development, school, strip-mall, or dump than it is as an AM station that almost no-one listens to.

Truer words were never spoken, Keith, thanks.


[/quote]

 

[Gregg]

AM is still a valuable medium. Maybe in 10 or 15 years, the above postings may be true. But of the top earning radio stations in the country, many of them are still exclusively on the AM band: WCBS, KFI, WINS, WFAN, WGN, WLS, KYW, KGO. In the LA market, about half the FM stations don't earn what KNX earns. And KFI I believe is right behind KIIS in earnings.

So predictions of AM's demise are premature. Even a so-so AM station higher on the dial in a decent sized market sells for close to a million dollars.

And Merlin Media might have scared CBS into flipping an underperforming FM station in Chicago to News. But I think now that Merlin Media's stations in NYC and Chicago are so odd and poorly programmed, I'd bet CBS is thinking it over-reacted in giving WBBM an FM signal.

Remember. A new AM-FM combo has to earn more money than the separately programmed stations did or it makes no sense. Would a new KFI-AM-FM earn more money than KFI on AM and KHHT on FM earn? I don't think so. I think as the number of second and third generation Hispanics grows in LA, KHHT playing rhythmic hits of the 70s, 80s and 90s can only grow. You'd never turn off the 640 signal or flip it. 640 is ALWAYS the highest rated LA station in the Riverside Market. And all those listeners are imbedded in the LA ratings.

I've discussed before why KNX and KRLD Dallas, of all the CBS All-News stations, under-perform. I don't think it has to do with being on AM. People in the Sunbelt for some reason don't support All-News stations. In many Sunbelt markets they don't properly support any spoken-word station, be it AM or FM, News, Talk or NPR. The reasons should be discussed on another thread. But I don't think KNX moving to FM would help much in LA. Blowing up one of the CBS FM stations in LA would not earn more money for a new KNX-AM-FM than keeping KNX only on AM, even if Merlin Media puts its odd news-and-fluff format on 93.9. All the CBS FM stations are in the Top 12 in the latest ratings. They're all earning good money.

(By the way, CBS parked its legendary NYC call letters WNEW on an Urban AC station in West Palm Beach that doesn't use its call letter except at the top of the hour I.D. CBS can keep its KFRC call letters in another market in the event it wants to bring them back to S.F. someday. It could move KCBS-FM to SF and rename 93.1 as KLAJ or KJCK or something like that.)

People thought radio would kill newspapers. People thought TV would kill radio and movies. AM radio will be with us for many more years to come.

Gregg
[email protected]