-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Who will take on Rock in New York?
- Thread starter XCountry285
- Start date
No. Now is doing fine as is. Especially given how much established competition it has. Plus CBS has been focusing more of it's efforts on CHR and is doing away with many of it's rock-oriented formats. Maybe you should persuade Family Radio to pick up the RXP torch.
Stop speculating about 92.3 to go alternative. It's not gonna happen. It would be fantastic, but I don't see it happen. Still I think it's not a smart move to go sports on 101.9 while alternative is increasing in the ratings. Too much risks. I hope alternative is come back to NYC, otherwise I guess it's back to Sirius XM and internet radio for all the new rock lovers. Tons of choices over there.
Sports bills better than Alternative ever will. Just from a formatics angle, there are far more places for live reads, sponsorship tags and inventory.
Stop looking at the ratings and focus on the billing.
RXP was a placeholder. The lack of NYC based programming, regular jock schedule or any type of promotion was the big tip off.
Stop looking at the ratings and focus on the billing.
RXP was a placeholder. The lack of NYC based programming, regular jock schedule or any type of promotion was the big tip off.
And the fact that it's a standalone Alternative station. Considering how much money Merlin had to recoup from initial investment and all the money lost as WEMP, Alternative by itself won't bill enough to make up all the money lost before the investors got tired of it. Sad, as I'm also an Alternative fan and really thought this station was well-programmed, but it's business.
XCountry285, READ CAREFULLY
When 'RXP came back, I was actually happy for you and other rock fans that got their station back. A couple of people that would be in "my circles" actually liked the sound that 'RXP brought back.
I AM VERY SORRY that you lost your station. Even if I am not into a particular sound of music, I would hate for people to have lost their "outlet". It was exactly the same way I felt years ago when 'CBS did the Jack flip. Even though 'BLS apparently "filled the void" after Kiss flipped to become ESPN, it still was a loss for fans of urban A.C. Though the station had financial difficulties from DAY 1, I supported Pulse 87 to the very end. Even after 'KTU was created in February 1996, I took a visit to a country music bar in New Hyde Park, NY to give people some sort of hope that the format would come back (most likely on a suburban basis). It eventually did with Y-107.
The reason why I say this is simple. You lost your station. I STILL don't have mine. And regardless of what you and others may think of 'KTU, IT IS NOT A DANCE STATION. 'KTU is as dance as Q-104 is alternative and progressive. Perhaps that's how you can understand it.
I still want my dance/EDM station to happen but let's look at the BIGGER picture here of where things have been going and even I can admit this. FM radio as a whole is going to "spoken word". It might have been a shock that WFAN-FM is going on 101.9 but it was NO SHOCK AT ALL that WFAN was going to appear on the FM dial sooner or later, this after ESPN parked itself on 98.7. Eventually CBS radio will sell off 660 to make up for this after the WLNY-TV purchase. But down the road, you can also kiss Newsradio 880 and WINS goodbye too. Why? Because it will eventually be Newsradio 92.3 and 102.7 WINS. Watch PLJ be the new home of WABC 770 down the road. I could see another station try "hot talk" again and this time around it actually MAY succeed.
If the FCC wants to KEEP the AM band, it will be a radio "ghetto" of leased programming. I could see Arthur Liu buying up those AM frequencies so that he can sell more time to groups wanting to air whatever they're putting out there (religion, news from abroad, multi-ethnic). He'd be smart to do so.
Musically, terrestrial radio is dying. Even the Clear Channels know this...why do you think there's an iHeartRadio? If you want your alternative, there it is. If I want my dance, there it is. There are THOUSANDS of outlets for everyone out there on the Internet. You can stream it in now with that cable going into your aux port (or cassette player, or CD adapter). But eventually you will have the streaming car stereos down the road. Watch the phone companies sell data packages for it. You have Sirius XM out there and they do a fantastic job with the rock coverage (only 4 outlets for dance).
Seriously "X", I am sorry you lost your outlet. But PLEASE, do not state "facts" on what you really don't know about dance music. With the exception of feeling that "dubstep" could go on an alternative station, I have stayed out of it.
Thank you,
TS
When 'RXP came back, I was actually happy for you and other rock fans that got their station back. A couple of people that would be in "my circles" actually liked the sound that 'RXP brought back.
I AM VERY SORRY that you lost your station. Even if I am not into a particular sound of music, I would hate for people to have lost their "outlet". It was exactly the same way I felt years ago when 'CBS did the Jack flip. Even though 'BLS apparently "filled the void" after Kiss flipped to become ESPN, it still was a loss for fans of urban A.C. Though the station had financial difficulties from DAY 1, I supported Pulse 87 to the very end. Even after 'KTU was created in February 1996, I took a visit to a country music bar in New Hyde Park, NY to give people some sort of hope that the format would come back (most likely on a suburban basis). It eventually did with Y-107.
The reason why I say this is simple. You lost your station. I STILL don't have mine. And regardless of what you and others may think of 'KTU, IT IS NOT A DANCE STATION. 'KTU is as dance as Q-104 is alternative and progressive. Perhaps that's how you can understand it.
I still want my dance/EDM station to happen but let's look at the BIGGER picture here of where things have been going and even I can admit this. FM radio as a whole is going to "spoken word". It might have been a shock that WFAN-FM is going on 101.9 but it was NO SHOCK AT ALL that WFAN was going to appear on the FM dial sooner or later, this after ESPN parked itself on 98.7. Eventually CBS radio will sell off 660 to make up for this after the WLNY-TV purchase. But down the road, you can also kiss Newsradio 880 and WINS goodbye too. Why? Because it will eventually be Newsradio 92.3 and 102.7 WINS. Watch PLJ be the new home of WABC 770 down the road. I could see another station try "hot talk" again and this time around it actually MAY succeed.
If the FCC wants to KEEP the AM band, it will be a radio "ghetto" of leased programming. I could see Arthur Liu buying up those AM frequencies so that he can sell more time to groups wanting to air whatever they're putting out there (religion, news from abroad, multi-ethnic). He'd be smart to do so.
Musically, terrestrial radio is dying. Even the Clear Channels know this...why do you think there's an iHeartRadio? If you want your alternative, there it is. If I want my dance, there it is. There are THOUSANDS of outlets for everyone out there on the Internet. You can stream it in now with that cable going into your aux port (or cassette player, or CD adapter). But eventually you will have the streaming car stereos down the road. Watch the phone companies sell data packages for it. You have Sirius XM out there and they do a fantastic job with the rock coverage (only 4 outlets for dance).
Seriously "X", I am sorry you lost your outlet. But PLEASE, do not state "facts" on what you really don't know about dance music. With the exception of feeling that "dubstep" could go on an alternative station, I have stayed out of it.
Thank you,
TS
Tony,
You probably have the most class of anybody on these boards. Despite the number of alternative fans who continually blast your calls for a dance station in NYC, you've been glad for alternative to return and posted a classy message about it's impending demise (again). I may disagree with you on exactly how successful dance would be in NYC, but I agree that dance, just like alternative, can be profitable if someone would give it a legitimate chance to succeed. Here's to hoping for the best so both of us may see our formats return and I'm hoping KDHT can be a success so everyone else can take note, since it's one of a kind for commercial radio, at least from what I've heard. Have a great week!
-C.H.
You probably have the most class of anybody on these boards. Despite the number of alternative fans who continually blast your calls for a dance station in NYC, you've been glad for alternative to return and posted a classy message about it's impending demise (again). I may disagree with you on exactly how successful dance would be in NYC, but I agree that dance, just like alternative, can be profitable if someone would give it a legitimate chance to succeed. Here's to hoping for the best so both of us may see our formats return and I'm hoping KDHT can be a success so everyone else can take note, since it's one of a kind for commercial radio, at least from what I've heard. Have a great week!
-C.H.
chrocket87 said:
It's an unknown if dance and/or alternative and/or country, etc. could be profitable in NY, but let's assume that they would be. The belief by CBS ownership is that spoken word programming (WFAN-FM) will be MORE profitable/strategically advantageous at this time. That's the beginning and the end of the story. No decision CBS makes will make 100% of people happy.
chrocket87 said:
Our main beef is that Merlin put alternative back on, after taking it away the first time. Now it is being sold, and taken away again. They should have just put on the AC "FM New" format as a placeholder, no one would miss it if that was taken away.
Tony, thank you. There should be dance, alternative, and country stations in New York. But the radio owners do not care about format holes, or serving the public. They care about balance sheets. Look at Kiss FM. They were a respected, heritage format with high ratings, dumped for a sports station that gets a quarter of the ratings, because it bills well.
mrbrightside said:
I get that "billing is everything", but what I don't get is the fact that there are format holes and very loyal audiences that can be served. My question is, do stations still have direct sales teams? If so, do these teams understand the product they are selling? I know there was no time to put together a team for RXP, but my arguement is, in order to sell something, you need to understand it. The fact that 1.6 million people found RXP v2 in just 2 months shows that the audience potential is there, but (going back as far as RXP v1) there is nobody around who understands the audience and their spending habits, thus trying to then find a client roster that would fit the bill of the stations average listener.
There are absolutely local sales staffs, but in market #1 the majority of your revenue is going to be agency buys. Having personally dealt with media buyers and agencies, I can tell you that they don't care WHAT's on your station, they just care how many people are hearing it and how cheaply they can buy time. I don't think there's any doubt that WRXP could be successful, but it comes down to preserving and growing an already-strong revenue stream for CBS.
Understanding the product and its advantages is much more important for local sales in smaller markets.
Understanding the product and its advantages is much more important for local sales in smaller markets.
Tony Santiago said:
Well said, Tony. I know you still don't have you're EDM station, but you get it. The future of FM will be spoken word, news, talk & sports. It's been happening in markets outside New York for at least the last five years. Many who post on this board have said this can't happen in NY because of the many 50 kW AM stations here.
The issue is not signal strength, or how many states WFAN reaches at night, it is demographics and advertising. Listeners under age 55 don't know from AM, all they know is FM. I was in my health club one night where I got into a conversation about sports with a young man in his 20s. When I mentioned WFAN, he said to me, "What's F-A-N?" That spoke volumes to me! WFAN needs to add FM to reach young men like this gentlemen I spoke of.
Many of those markets outside NY don't have 50 kW AM stations. Adding or migrating to FM solved a coverage problem in some markets. Now that a 50 kW non-D blaster with no coverage isues in Market #1 is adding FM, fans of FM music stations need to take notice. The future is here, like it or not!
Tony, thank you for your thoughtful post directed towards fans of Alternative Rock.
I would like to address a different point brought up within it:
There is a slight problem with the argument that eventually ALL of FM radio will be spoken word, and programmed with content presently heard on the AM band. The argument suggests that the market for music programming has shrunk to levels of which are financially unsustainable for the licensees, or that such a fate is near realization. If this were the case, why is there such an outcry right now over the inevitable loss of Alternative Rock on WRXP? And why does Arbitron continue to record more than respectable numbers for music programmed stations, such as WCBS-FM which recently has ranked as high as second-place? By the way, the #1 station in the #1 market happens to be another music programmed station, WLTW.
The problem is not that music isn't viable on FM, the problem is that the trending demographics aren't optimistic on AM. Therefore, the quick and easy solution for these companies is to move the successful radio stations presently on AM to a new spot on the FM band. Simple. I disagree...
Does anyone actually believe that ClearChannel, who will be facing the exact same demographic problem that Buckley Broadcasting faced with WOR, would seriously contemplate displacing any of their five FM stations to move the programming from WOR onto FM in order to improve its demographics?
I discussed this in an earlier post, but will repeat my comments here:
If the future for AM is so hopeless that a large company, such as CBS Radio, feels a successful format cannot survive much longer on a prime clear-channel 50kW non-directional signal licensed to New York, it is time to ask, what will become of ALL the stations who presently reside on that band and presently do not have an FM signal to migrate to?
I think the best answer lies in an eventual expansion of the FM band. TV channels 5 and 6 are no longer desirable in the ATSC Digital Television era. Seeing as they are situated immediately below the present FM band, expansion of FM service into those frequencies is something that should seriously be under consideration by broadcasters and the government. In fact, other countries are already using these frequencies for this purpose.
Monetarily, there would probably be a slight devaluation of existing FM signals due to a surplus of new electromagnetic real estate. However, certain terms and conditions could be placed on eligible licensees for being assigned a broadcasting license. This would help mitigate any negative financial impact this could have on present FM radio licensees.
But it is very clear: If a heritage, high-billing, and high-rated New York radio station cannot survive on the AM band, it is imperative to plan now for what could soon be a mass exodus.
The audience will not listen to a station simply for it being on the FM band. Disney is proving that with WEPN-FM, CBS proved it on WNEW-FM and then again on WFNY-FM, and Merlin really highlighted, proved, and underscored the point with WEMP. In nearly all of those cases (except WEPN-FM), those FM stations musical predecessors outperformed their talk successors, each of which eventually was put out of their misery.
Lastly, it has been said that the Hispanic audience makes extensive use of modern technologies to receive content. If that is the case, that would eliminate a significant portion of the ethnic leased programming presently heard over AM radio, further reducing a ROI for any potential licensee. And don't forget in which band the pirates like to hang out with their Caribbean/Trinidad and other ethnic programming...
The hard question that is going to have to be addressed is this: What is the to become of all of the stations presently programming on the AM band?
If the answer is simply, "move to FM", then the FM band needs to be expanded. There are only 80 channels upon which a commercial broadcaster can set-up shop, and over half of those cannot be used due to short-spacing, other FM broadcast stations, and ERP regulations. That leaves the band with just over 30 potential opportunities for a full-power class B or B1 FM to operate effectively. And in major markets, EVERY one of those stations is presently occupied.
I don't think the "just move to FM" answer is as simple as it is being presented...
I would like to address a different point brought up within it:
Tony Santiago said:
There is a slight problem with the argument that eventually ALL of FM radio will be spoken word, and programmed with content presently heard on the AM band. The argument suggests that the market for music programming has shrunk to levels of which are financially unsustainable for the licensees, or that such a fate is near realization. If this were the case, why is there such an outcry right now over the inevitable loss of Alternative Rock on WRXP? And why does Arbitron continue to record more than respectable numbers for music programmed stations, such as WCBS-FM which recently has ranked as high as second-place? By the way, the #1 station in the #1 market happens to be another music programmed station, WLTW.
The problem is not that music isn't viable on FM, the problem is that the trending demographics aren't optimistic on AM. Therefore, the quick and easy solution for these companies is to move the successful radio stations presently on AM to a new spot on the FM band. Simple. I disagree...
Does anyone actually believe that ClearChannel, who will be facing the exact same demographic problem that Buckley Broadcasting faced with WOR, would seriously contemplate displacing any of their five FM stations to move the programming from WOR onto FM in order to improve its demographics?
I discussed this in an earlier post, but will repeat my comments here:
If the future for AM is so hopeless that a large company, such as CBS Radio, feels a successful format cannot survive much longer on a prime clear-channel 50kW non-directional signal licensed to New York, it is time to ask, what will become of ALL the stations who presently reside on that band and presently do not have an FM signal to migrate to?
I think the best answer lies in an eventual expansion of the FM band. TV channels 5 and 6 are no longer desirable in the ATSC Digital Television era. Seeing as they are situated immediately below the present FM band, expansion of FM service into those frequencies is something that should seriously be under consideration by broadcasters and the government. In fact, other countries are already using these frequencies for this purpose.
Monetarily, there would probably be a slight devaluation of existing FM signals due to a surplus of new electromagnetic real estate. However, certain terms and conditions could be placed on eligible licensees for being assigned a broadcasting license. This would help mitigate any negative financial impact this could have on present FM radio licensees.
But it is very clear: If a heritage, high-billing, and high-rated New York radio station cannot survive on the AM band, it is imperative to plan now for what could soon be a mass exodus.
The audience will not listen to a station simply for it being on the FM band. Disney is proving that with WEPN-FM, CBS proved it on WNEW-FM and then again on WFNY-FM, and Merlin really highlighted, proved, and underscored the point with WEMP. In nearly all of those cases (except WEPN-FM), those FM stations musical predecessors outperformed their talk successors, each of which eventually was put out of their misery.
Lastly, it has been said that the Hispanic audience makes extensive use of modern technologies to receive content. If that is the case, that would eliminate a significant portion of the ethnic leased programming presently heard over AM radio, further reducing a ROI for any potential licensee. And don't forget in which band the pirates like to hang out with their Caribbean/Trinidad and other ethnic programming...
The hard question that is going to have to be addressed is this: What is the to become of all of the stations presently programming on the AM band?
If the answer is simply, "move to FM", then the FM band needs to be expanded. There are only 80 channels upon which a commercial broadcaster can set-up shop, and over half of those cannot be used due to short-spacing, other FM broadcast stations, and ERP regulations. That leaves the band with just over 30 potential opportunities for a full-power class B or B1 FM to operate effectively. And in major markets, EVERY one of those stations is presently occupied.
I don't think the "just move to FM" answer is as simple as it is being presented...
Actually, I can think of another reason why music on radio is going away: the recording industry's insistence that they must be paid by the stations that promote their music. They keep pushing "fair performance royalty" bills that ignore the already settled business that a song played is a song promoted (and thus the royalty is equivalent to the promotional consideration.)
They're getting their wish. They'll be paid for airplay: zero airplay equals zero pay.
They're getting their wish. They'll be paid for airplay: zero airplay equals zero pay.
Before I reply, I just want to say that I am deeply humbled by the comments from everyone after my last post. Thank you! Let me get to Giacomo Siffredi's post here because he did address a lot and I just want to give my take.
I don't think it's really an issue regarding musical licensing per se. But if you look at what's present on the dial now, only 92.3 Now, Z-100, Hot 97, Power 105.1, X 96.3 and, to a certain extent, 'KTU cater to an audience that is under 30. All of the other music stations lean older demos. The older demographics will still seek FM in terms of their car stereos and may not necessarily be as tech savvy as those under 30, which is why you're going to have stations like CBS-FM and Lite-FM perennially perform well.
The younger audience, whose tastes in music have been ignored or dumped by corporate, have already gone to Internet streams and services such as Spotify and Pandora for their musical fix. The older audience will eventually die off and the current younger audience has already been conditioned to their smartphones, iPads, and probably see radio as "old tool; something their parents used to listen to music." That's why I had mentioned iHeartRadio because Clear Channel, love 'em or hate 'em, has seen the writing on the wall with this. For dance, there are 8 branded stations there (Club Phusion, Evolution, Electric Sound Stage, etc.). Besides other markets that have alternative and country stations, there are branded stations there as well...which will be there once those stations in different markets bail for spoken word.
Regarding AM, it's all dependent on the FCC whether they want to leave it there or distribute the bandwidth elsewhere (I'm no expert on that, perhaps Scott Fybush can better answer that). But for those stations that can't afford to migrate to the FM band, I still believe AM is all going to be leased access and guys like Arthur Liu will make a killing on it. Granted, the audio quality for music on AM comes nowhere close to FM. But, and this is wishful thinking I admit, if the FCC gets harder on pirates with harsher fines and perhaps jail time, what better way of convincing them that they CAN have a legal voice and be heard by their respective audience on terrestrial radio by buying time on AM and making money through advertising in that way? Plus, on a 50kw Class A, their "voice" can transmit well beyond NYC.
You are right, this is not as simple as it appears.
Let me get to Giacomo Siffredi's post here because he did address a lot and I just want to give my take. I don't think it's really an issue regarding musical licensing per se. But if you look at what's present on the dial now, only 92.3 Now, Z-100, Hot 97, Power 105.1, X 96.3 and, to a certain extent, 'KTU cater to an audience that is under 30. All of the other music stations lean older demos. The older demographics will still seek FM in terms of their car stereos and may not necessarily be as tech savvy as those under 30, which is why you're going to have stations like CBS-FM and Lite-FM perennially perform well.
The younger audience, whose tastes in music have been ignored or dumped by corporate, have already gone to Internet streams and services such as Spotify and Pandora for their musical fix. The older audience will eventually die off and the current younger audience has already been conditioned to their smartphones, iPads, and probably see radio as "old tool; something their parents used to listen to music." That's why I had mentioned iHeartRadio because Clear Channel, love 'em or hate 'em, has seen the writing on the wall with this. For dance, there are 8 branded stations there (Club Phusion, Evolution, Electric Sound Stage, etc.). Besides other markets that have alternative and country stations, there are branded stations there as well...which will be there once those stations in different markets bail for spoken word.
Regarding AM, it's all dependent on the FCC whether they want to leave it there or distribute the bandwidth elsewhere (I'm no expert on that, perhaps Scott Fybush can better answer that). But for those stations that can't afford to migrate to the FM band, I still believe AM is all going to be leased access and guys like Arthur Liu will make a killing on it. Granted, the audio quality for music on AM comes nowhere close to FM. But, and this is wishful thinking I admit, if the FCC gets harder on pirates with harsher fines and perhaps jail time, what better way of convincing them that they CAN have a legal voice and be heard by their respective audience on terrestrial radio by buying time on AM and making money through advertising in that way? Plus, on a 50kw Class A, their "voice" can transmit well beyond NYC.
You are right, this is not as simple as it appears.
I hope that Family Radio sells 94.7 and someone brings in an Alternative station back on to NYC airwaves or 99.5 at least.
I still feel that NYC has no variety in its radio stations at all. In the late 90s there was no issue with NYC radio because it was perfect and stations weren't all playing the same music every 5 minutes. It's a shame, perhaps the FCC should prevent AMs from going off the air and going to FM. AM has a better signal I don't understand why anyone would want to go to FM? Why haven't they fixed AM's sound yet? we can do all these other great technologies but not fix AM that baffles me. Not even HD radio, I believe companies waste putting similar formatted stations in one market covering the same demographics. It's a waste. CC is notorous for this, CBS, Cumulus too. Doesn't mean that they can't have 2 hip hop stations in a market, just means that their stations overlap way too much and put FM signals with AM stations on them, it's a waste of space! I don't even understand why FM was invented? AM has better signal however the sound sucks. Why can't this be fixed? Why not create HD radios that don't need to be converted Why not use the 101.4's and other things of that nature
I still feel that NYC has no variety in its radio stations at all. In the late 90s there was no issue with NYC radio because it was perfect and stations weren't all playing the same music every 5 minutes. It's a shame, perhaps the FCC should prevent AMs from going off the air and going to FM. AM has a better signal I don't understand why anyone would want to go to FM? Why haven't they fixed AM's sound yet? we can do all these other great technologies but not fix AM that baffles me. Not even HD radio, I believe companies waste putting similar formatted stations in one market covering the same demographics. It's a waste. CC is notorous for this, CBS, Cumulus too. Doesn't mean that they can't have 2 hip hop stations in a market, just means that their stations overlap way too much and put FM signals with AM stations on them, it's a waste of space! I don't even understand why FM was invented? AM has better signal however the sound sucks. Why can't this be fixed? Why not create HD radios that don't need to be converted Why not use the 101.4's and other things of that nature
- Status