Earthquakes? Floods? Train derailments with toxic chemical spills?
Even 9/11..??? And no president has used EAS in 50 years?
So why do we bother?
Even 9/11..??? And no president has used EAS in 50 years?
So why do we bother?
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Why do we bother with EAS if we don't use it?
- Thread starter spinjector
- Start date
spinjector said:
The EAS stystem is used very effectively in a number of states for missing children alerts. Tornado warnings and other weather alerts are common, and when the local government knows what it is doing (unlike Minot) it is effective for evacuation notices related to fires, toxic chemicals, etc.
A flood is something that has already happenend; there is no need for an alert for the obvious. AN alert would be appropriate for flash flood warnings and alerts, something I have heard many times.
Similarly, an "earthquake warning" is an oxymoron. Once an earthquake has happened, there is not a lot that can be "alerted" about.
The EAS would be appropriate to warn about an impending attack; there was not warning about 9/11 so there was no real purpose in running an alert.
The biggest defect of the radio EAS system is that at a minimum, at any given moment, less 15% of the population in an area is actually listening to the radio and at some times of the late night, it is just a percent or two. Even radio and TV combined miss a huge percentage of people at most times of the day. Thus, EAS alerts do not reach most of the population... but it is the best we have come up with so far. The EAS needs to be improved, including cellular alerting.
Yup! Bingo! A nice way to fine people. That's what it's good for! The national level of eas is a total and absolute failure.
techie2 said:
Couldn't have said it better myself. I get text alerts on my cell phone for tornado warnings faster than the local radio media can relay the same alert via the EAS. And the local TV "meterologists" are too busy playing with their toys to make any sense to me.
The EAS system and public file requirements make a nice little revenue stream for the FCC. That's about it.
DavidEduardo said:
Can you quote one successful instance where the EAS system was directly responsible for the recovery of an abducted child? I can't. The CAE requirement was nothing more than a feel good policy involvement from the bureaucrats. Can you also cite one successful local activation of the EAS system? I can't. In November of 2006 a CSX train headed North bound into Louisville derailed in Bullitt county. People were evacuated. I-65 was shut down. The EAS system was never activated.
Why not? The crashes didn't all happen at the same time. And we didn't know if there were more on the way. 9/11 would have been a perfect time for the president to activate the EAS and address the nation. But it didn't happen. Why? Because CNN, Fox News and every other broadcast outlet was already covering the event making the EAS system antiquated. That hasn't changed. The EAS system is still antiquated. But we are still fined for not having it. It's almost like being required to have an old Gates tube type transmitter on hand "just in case".
And it's out dated. It was outdated before it was implemented because there are vast other ways to disseminate information. Oh, and radio listenership is tanking, I will give you that.
We already have it. I get weather text alerts on my cell phone with no need for the EAS system involvement.
"...Can you quote one successful instance where the EAS system was directly responsible for the recovery of an abducted child? I can't. The CAE requirement was nothing more than a feel good policy involvement from the bureaucrats...." I believe there have been a few at least here in Oklahoma and in Texas. With that being said, the wonderful government won't let us test the CAE without a bunch of waiver hell for our state EAS committee to fill out. So we don't. Leave it to the FCC idiot goverment to even goof up something that a BROADCASTER in Texas came up with to serve the public.
It's just too bad the wireless boys don't have all the burdens we do that are shoved down their throats. Radio and TV, here when the gov't needs us including running cut-rate political spots and EAS and "to hell with ya!" the rest of the time... How did we become the gov't/FCC's kicking dog anyway?
It's just too bad the wireless boys don't have all the burdens we do that are shoved down their throats. Radio and TV, here when the gov't needs us including running cut-rate political spots and EAS and "to hell with ya!" the rest of the time... How did we become the gov't/FCC's kicking dog anyway?
Bengalsfan said:
I got a portable NOAA receiver to go along with the cell phone. If it is a night or a weekend around here, there is zero information to be had from the "local" radio because there is no one home. If I missed the EAS alert, too bad. At least the NOAA station loops the alert announcements so if I missed it, it will come back around. Plus it scrolls right on the display. I don't know how anyone in tornado country can go without a weather radio.
I used to be able to tune TV audio for information when the power is out, but thanks to digital TV that option is no longer available.
EAS and public file fines are easy for non-technical bureaucrats to enforce and generate revenue. Technical standards require effort and brains to catch, and it seems like they only seem to hit the low-hanging fruit (e.g. pirates once in a blue moon, or the Bishop Willis type stations). Never mind the others who are overmodulating, or "forgetting" to switch power or pattern on time. Of course, now that we can all legally jam adjacent channels anyway, I guess that doesn't really matter. Time to wire that "high school football" setting on the remote control...
OKCRadioGuy said:
If so that's great. However I have never heard anyone after the successful recovery of an abducted child say they heard the information and identifed the suspect based on any radio reports or the EAS system. And we became the FCC's whipping boy because of the NAB and their sellout to special interests....namely Clear Channel and others who wanted the ownership limits uncapped.
techie2 said:EAS and public file fines are easy for non-technical bureaucrats to enforce and generate revenue. Technical standards require effort and brains to catch, and it seems like they only seem to hit the low-hanging fruit (e.g. pirates once in a blue moon, or the Bishop Willis type stations). Never mind the others who are overmodulating, or "forgetting" to switch power or pattern on time. Of course, now that we can all legally jam adjacent channels anyway, I guess that doesn't really matter. Time to wire that "high school football" setting on the remote control...
True story: FCC field agent came to Louisville a couple of years ago. Needless to say, folks freaked out. Anyway, she wanted to see the print out from our EAS box. Then wanted to see public files. Then asked me to take her to the transmitter. She didn't want to go in. didn't want to verify we were within licensed parameters. All she wanted to see there was that our ARN number was properly displayed. We could have been broadcasting with 1.21 gigawatts and 245% modulation on a frequency no where near what we were supposed to be. didn't matter. They dinged my client for two things. Not having chief operator posted and missing ONE public file entry. Tell me what any of that has to do with the actual operation of a radio station?! Nothing. It was an easy hit and she earned her salary on our fine alone.
Bengalsfan said:
In California, 911 calls in response to EAS and electronic signage notifications are an ongoing thing, and I have lost track of the reports of children recovered because citizens identified vehicles involved in abductions and called in.
I can't give time and date, but I have heard local activations for flash flooding in the Coachella Valley in CA, and for mudslides and flash flooding on the Hassayampa and other rivers around Prescott, AZ. All were local activations (county level, if I recall) and not broader weather advisories... which I hear often in both places.
Like the widely misunderstood Minot spill at 2 AM, the responsible people were the local authorities. In Minot, the people on duty were not trained to activate. In other cases I have heard about, authorities felt that the containment area was so small that door to door or telephone contact was faster and more thorough.
It took many minutes for the conclusion that the plane crashes were terrorist attacks and might be part of a broader plan.
The first attack was at 8:45 and the second was 58 minutes later. I was on a flight out of LAX that was within seconds of rotating at about 6:50, PST when the takeoff was violently aborted... so it took about an hour and 15 minutes for the authorities to take action on a national level.
The real issue is "what kind of a message could be broadcast that would help?" I am sure the element of avoiding more disasters due to panic came into play. In any case, there was no belief that average people on the ground could be assisted by such a message.
In this sense, it is akin to activating the EAS to say that there has been an eartquake. If you live in the area where severe damage might have occured, a) you already know about the quake and, b) you don't have electricity, probably have not had a chance to look for an emergency radio and would not be helped at all by an EAS activation... and, c) most stations will be off the air in a severe quake and the communications infrastructure will likely be damaged or down.
That's not the purpose of the EAS. The EAS in intended to give useful information, not to be the source of press conferences.
As long as it reaches some people as the first source, it is valuable. Most people are not in front of a TV at any given time. Or listening to the radio. Or on the Internet. Or even carrying a messaging capable cellular phone. So a combination of methods will reach most of the people, but none will be 100% effective.
Radio listening is not tanking, thank you very much.
Radio listening has been declining in the amount of time each listener spends with radio per week since the late 80's. But the percentage of people who use radio is barely changed from 22 years ago.
There has been no time in the last half-century when even half the people were listening at the same time, and in times like overnights (when the Minot incident occured) listening has been a percent or two of the population. Even peak listening times find less than one of four people listening... same as in 1965 using comparable measurement methods.
Many cellulars do not have advanced features, and some, like the Jitterbug, promote the fact that they do nothing but make and get calls. Add to that the fact that many cellulars are not located in the area where their area code indicates they are and you would be alerting people who moved to Miami 3 years ago about a flood in Utah. In other words, not totally effective, either.
I'm aware of some similar instances locally that correspond with Bengalsfan's story about the agent.
A few small operators and even Cumulus have been dinged this way. The Cumulus cluster was hit hard because one of the FM stations had no provision for the operator on duty to adjust the transmitter remotely. But mostly it's for one missing piece of paper in the public file or EAS stuff.
Ever wonder how many people actually look at public files? Hardly anyone.
With the exception of the stations where I worked, I needed to see a public file once in the past 30 years (in 1983). And that was for the engineering portion of an application for a group with a CP, who abandoned their project and let their permit expire. The public file was in the basement of an elementary school in a neighboring small town. The woman working in the office down there said I was the only person who had ever asked to look at it.
A few small operators and even Cumulus have been dinged this way. The Cumulus cluster was hit hard because one of the FM stations had no provision for the operator on duty to adjust the transmitter remotely. But mostly it's for one missing piece of paper in the public file or EAS stuff.
Ever wonder how many people actually look at public files? Hardly anyone.
With the exception of the stations where I worked, I needed to see a public file once in the past 30 years (in 1983). And that was for the engineering portion of an application for a group with a CP, who abandoned their project and let their permit expire. The public file was in the basement of an elementary school in a neighboring small town. The woman working in the office down there said I was the only person who had ever asked to look at it.
"Like the widely misunderstood Minot spill at 2 AM, the responsible people were the local authorities. In Minot, the people on duty were not trained to activate. In other cases I have heard about, authorities felt that the containment area was so small that door to door or telephone contact was faster and more thorough. "
Bingo! There's the biggest failure of the system. IT'S NOT US. We the broadcaster bought the #*&$ equipment, hooked it up and tested it. We don't originate alerts. The 'local athorities' are the ones that are supposed to do that. We have to hound our state people to death just to get them to run tests. After business hours, no one is home. If they want to go pick on someone or throw money at things, they need to go mess with their little brotheren in state and local excuse for goverment. With that being said, at least we CAN get our state to eventually run tests, with coaxing. Many states can't even seem to be bothered to try.
It just irritates me beyond belief that we, the broadcaster have to put up with constant hounding on how "BAD" we are for not serving the public. BS. Even CC, CBS, etc will get EAS alerts turned around. In fact, they are generally better about it. I can be extremely critical about how they robot program their stations, etc. but from a tech standpoint, they are generally on top of it.
Wearing us out about paperwork is NOT in the publics' intrest. It's only in the intrest of the FCC and Congress, the same nice people that are trying steal even more of our TV frequencies as I sit and type this.
I agree incompetent, techology-challenged FCC inspectors are the reason why they like to play with the paperwork so much. I bet you they have nightmares where they wet the bed dreaming about having to actually read a transmitter's readings. I bet the majority of them can't do it.
Bingo! There's the biggest failure of the system. IT'S NOT US. We the broadcaster bought the #*&$ equipment, hooked it up and tested it. We don't originate alerts. The 'local athorities' are the ones that are supposed to do that. We have to hound our state people to death just to get them to run tests. After business hours, no one is home. If they want to go pick on someone or throw money at things, they need to go mess with their little brotheren in state and local excuse for goverment. With that being said, at least we CAN get our state to eventually run tests, with coaxing. Many states can't even seem to be bothered to try.
It just irritates me beyond belief that we, the broadcaster have to put up with constant hounding on how "BAD" we are for not serving the public. BS. Even CC, CBS, etc will get EAS alerts turned around. In fact, they are generally better about it. I can be extremely critical about how they robot program their stations, etc. but from a tech standpoint, they are generally on top of it.
Wearing us out about paperwork is NOT in the publics' intrest. It's only in the intrest of the FCC and Congress, the same nice people that are trying steal even more of our TV frequencies as I sit and type this.
I agree incompetent, techology-challenged FCC inspectors are the reason why they like to play with the paperwork so much. I bet you they have nightmares where they wet the bed dreaming about having to actually read a transmitter's readings. I bet the majority of them can't do it.
True story:
Daytime AM station, combined site, normally uses a more modern high-power (MW series) transmitter, but because of antenna problems they had their old BC-1T box on the air (833's modulating 833's--clear glass bottles with those cherry-red plates ). FCC inspector stops by--does the usually look-through of the public file, EAS, etc., finds nothing wrong. The station is old-fashion design with the main studio looking at the two transmitters through a double-pane window. Inspector goes in to look at the transmitter--points to the tubes pulsing with modulation--and asks the GM:
"What are those things?" :
Daytime AM station, combined site, normally uses a more modern high-power (MW series) transmitter, but because of antenna problems they had their old BC-1T box on the air (833's modulating 833's--clear glass bottles with those cherry-red plates
). FCC inspector stops by--does the usually look-through of the public file, EAS, etc., finds nothing wrong. The station is old-fashion design with the main studio looking at the two transmitters through a double-pane window. Inspector goes in to look at the transmitter--points to the tubes pulsing with modulation--and asks the GM:"What are those things?" :
LMAO!!!!! That's too dang funny! You made my day!
TomT said:True story:
"What are those things?" :
That's funny right there. Prolly never saw a transmitter, much less one like that. As nice as the field agent was who stopped through Louisville, I doubt seriously she'd know how to verify that our three stations were operating within licensed parameters even if she did go in the transmitter building.
David, just like Judge Judy, I don't recognize hearsay or anecdotal evidence. If you are going to defend the EAS system to me, then show me some hard evidence. Can't be too hard considering what we are talking about is newsworthy and would be reported in the media somewhere. The highway message signs are not related to the EAS system. Those are controlled by municipal traffic authorities.
So then you agree with my premise that the EAS system is antiquated and has been surpassed by other technology. If you have a system that you don't know what to do with, and you feel like it is of no assistance when needed, then make it voluntary and don't fine stations who do not participate.
Bengalsfan said:
Call the Cali broadcasters association or the SCBA... we get information quite regularly about the effectiveness of the EAS system.
The signs are controlled by Caltrans, and Caltrans is a joint particpant in the missing children localization effort with broadcasting and the EAS system.
It does not matter what technology you use, there was no useful purpose in activating EAS, a cell phone alert or flashing UFO's on that date, unless you wanted to create mass panic, people injuring or killing themselves or others rushing out of buildings, out of town or to where family members were located...
The EAS is enormously useful for things ranging from abducted children to tornado warnings, flash flood warnings and other actionable alerts. It is not useful, nor is any other alert system, for events over which the individual has no ability to take action or things which have already happened (like earthquakes).
That said, radio, tv and cable alone are not enough, nor is cellullar communication. All these systems are less than universally used at any given time, and none is sufficciently hardened against disaster to count on it alone in the event of a disaster, and that particularly goes for cellular phones... the first thing to go in things like earthquakes, hurricanes, etc.
DavidEduardo said:
Maybe. You have not shown me any evidence that it has proved it's usefulness for a child abduction.
Possible, however there are other venues that reach more people. You said that less 15% of the population in an area is actually listening to the radio and at some times of the late night, it is just a percent or two. Bureau of Transportation estimates there are over 170 million cell phone subscribers. The population of the US is over 300 million. Seems to me the already existing text message system is a better way of alerting people over the EAS system where there are possibly only 45 million people reached by the EAS system at any time.
TomT said:True story:
Daytime AM station, combined site, normally uses a more modern high-power (MW series) transmitter, but because of antenna problems they had their old BC-1T box on the air (833's modulating 833's--clear glass bottles with those cherry-red plates
"What are those things?" :
In 1991, when I was runnng a 100w pirate on 7.415 Mhz, eventually the FCC arrived.
With the handbuilt, open breadboard, link coupled, push-pull 6L6 transmitter spread out on the living room coffee table before them, they asked:
"Which is the transmitter?". Then one said, " I don't think I'm going to be able to take a power measurement or frequency reading from this."
They were expecting a ham transmitter with a spec plate and a digital readout, I suppose.
I agreed to shut down, they took nothing, and I paid the fine.
I suspect there was some latitude granted when they realized the whole shebang was hand-rolled.
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