Why do we bother with EAS if we don't use it?

[Fieldtech1]

Many cellulars do not have advanced features, and some, like the Jitterbug, promote the fact that they do nothing but make and get calls. Add to that the fact that many cellulars are not located in the area where their area code indicates they are and you would be alerting people who moved to Miami 3 years ago about a flood in Utah. In other words, not totally effective, either.

GSM cellular technology (T-Mobile, AT&T) offers a feature called cell broadcast which can direct messages to specific geographiclly located cells or even specific sectors on a cell tower regardless of the subcribers home location registry. Unlike a text message the message pops up on the screen without any action required by the end user. This feature is widely used in europe and the middle east. Im not sure if CDMA has a comparable technology.

 

[davideduardo]

I suspect there was some latitude granted when they realized the whole shebang was hand-rolled.

And that makes it somehow less illegal?

 

[davideduardo]

Maybe. You have not shown me any evidence that it has proved it's usefulness for a child abduction.

I gave you two sources which I believe could document for "Doubting Thomases" what those of us in radio programming in CA have known for years... the CBA and the SCBA. It's not my job to document the positive results of the EAS abduction alerts... and I certainly didn't keep a log of each alert and each recovery.

Bureau of Transportation estimates there are over 170 million cell phone subscribers. The population of the US is over 300 million. Seems to me the already existing text message system is a better way of alerting people over the EAS system where there are possibly only 45 million people reached by the EAS system at any time.

But around 240 million persons listen to radio regularly, although not all the time.

How many people turn their phones off for parts of the day? Or mute the audio alerts while at work, or while sleeping or while watching TV?

So they have cell phones, but they are not always in use.

Many cell phones do not even have text capabilities, and lots of people disable texting part of the time, due to the per message costs. Oh, and many people have multiple cellulars... I have four... one work, one personal, one on my alarm system and one a pay-as-you-go backup I keep in the car. All are active and have numbers.

Don't forget the millions of persons with Skype or MagicJack that are very much off the system.

In other words, as I have been saying, a multi-method system is necessary because no single method is 100% effective.

 

[Tom Wells]

I suspect there was some latitude granted when they realized the whole shebang was hand-rolled.

And that makes it somehow less illegal?

I never suggested it was any less illegal. My word alone that I would stop, I think, and the realization that it was hand built
may have at least allowed me to keep my gear. If they'd wanted to, they could have removed any equipment suspected to be used
in the operation of the station. Even as a pirate, when dealing with the FCC in ones home, it is important and worthwhile to be respectful and
agreeable. In this case two uniformed police officers were along. I'm sure the agents were glad I was cooperative, not combative.

 

[gr8oldies]

It wasn't EAS, but it was information on the radio (the Truckin' Bozo show) that led to the capture of the DC snipers.

 

[Bengalsfan]

I gave you two sources which I believe could document for "Doubting Thomases" what those of us in radio programming in CA have known for years... the CBA and the SCBA. It's not my job to document the positive results of the EAS abduction alerts... and I certainly didn't keep a log of each alert and each recovery.

You have chosen to defend the EAS in this discussion. Unless you can come up with some positive results your defense falls flat, sir. I'm not calling anyone to prove your point. If the EAS has done such a good job for California broadcasters, there should be some evidence you can show us. So far, you have not shown any connection between child abduction and the EAS either positive or negative. You have just offered anecdotal evidence which proves nothing.

But around 240 million persons listen to radio regularly, although not all the time.

How many people turn their phones off for parts of the day? Or mute the audio alerts while at work, or while sleeping or while watching TV?

So they have cell phones, but they are not always in use.

However, more people have cell phones at any given time than listen to radio.

Many cell phones do not even have text capabilities, and lots of people disable texting part of the time, due to the per message costs. Oh, and many people have multiple cellulars... I have four... one work, one personal, one on my alarm system and one a pay-as-you-go backup I keep in the car. All are active and have numbers.

Verses how many radio set?

Don't forget the millions of persons with Skype or MagicJack that are very much off the system.

Those are not cell phones. We are talking cell service here, not VoIP.

In other words, as I have been saying, a multi-method system is necessary because no single method is 100% effective.

However, the EAS is the least effective of them all. Yet broadcasters are mandated by the federal gub'ment to install and maintain it. If they don't, they are fined. Can you tell me in what other industry are business expected to maintain a system that does not work as well as other systems?

 

[joep]

You have chosen to defend the EAS in this discussion. Unless you can come up with some positive results your defense falls flat, sir.

I have a fire extinguisher in my garage. Are suggesting that since I've never actually HAD a fire and needed to use it, that I should get rid of the extinguisher? After all, I really can't point to any "positive results" that the extinguisher has generated. It just hangs on the wall and collects dust.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

"Many cellulars do not have advanced features, and some, like the Jitterbug, promote the fact that they do nothing but make and get calls. Add to that the fact that many cellulars are not located in the area where their area code indicates they are and you would be alerting people who moved to Miami 3 years ago about a flood in Utah. In other words, not totally effective, either."

Hey... Why should wireless get away with the excuse of it being to hard to do? It was for us, but it was rammed down our thoats. They are all supposed to be able to do e-911 now. That means they know what cell site you're in. Let THEM figure out how to make it work. The FCC should do like they do to us and wave a magic wand and force them to make it work.

 

[davideduardo]

You have chosen to defend the EAS in this discussion. Unless you can come up with some positive results your defense falls flat, sir. I'm not calling anyone to prove your point. If the EAS has done such a good job for California broadcasters, there should be some evidence you can show us.

I have given you "anecdotal" evidence based on being involved with California stations in five major markets over the last 18 years. If you wish to confirm my statement based on experience (and my background is just a click away) I gave you several sources. If you choose not to believe my statement on face value and based on direct involvement in both programming and engineering, then it is likely that you are one of "those" who simply don't agree with any opinion other than their own.

The point is that EAS saves lives. THere are also other ways to do that, and there are new technologies that will expand the usefulness of an emergency alert system, but we have a good base in radio and TV and cable, and a supporting infrastructure that already exists and works pretty consistently.

However, more people have cell phones at any given time than listen to radio.

And how long would it take to develop a truly effective system to do localized cellular alerts, such as the sytem suggested by another poster which may not even work on CDMA heavy US systems?

Verses how many radio set?

The figures range from 700,000 to 1,000,000 radios in the US. That's two to three per person. Versus 160 million cellular phones, many in the hands of persons who have several and those that don't text and those that are "throw aways" and such, so the reach is likely less than a third of the population, maybe even less. So cellular, besides being a weak system in times of natural disaster, has no more instant reach than radio and tv and cable, the electronic media.

Don't forget the millions of persons with Skype or MagicJack that are very much off the system.

Those are not cell phones. We are talking cell service here, not VoIP.

Yes, but users of some of these systems are not necessarily reachable by cellular.

However, the EAS is the least effective of them all.

If you add radio and tv and cable, the "at any given moment" reach is greater than that of in service, messagable and non-duplicated cell phone service. Plus the system works, and everything else is theoretica and would require an enormous amount of training and infrastructure at local, state and national levels.

Yet broadcasters are mandated by the federal gub'ment to install and maintain it. If they don't, they are fined. Can you tell me in what other industry are business expected to maintain a system that does not work as well as other systems?

Trick question. EAS exists, works and all other systems are theoretical. The government requires nuclear plants to have extensive monitoring and safety equipment... so asking radio to provide the EAS pass through is a tiny obligation even if it only helps a handful of people a year... which is vastly less than the effective results of EAS.

EAS needs upgrading, just as CONELRAD and EBS did... but the use of mass media is not easily substituted.

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Yeah... The updating it needs is at a level much further up than us. The Fed gov't needs updating. Maybe the next voting cycle that update will happen and we'll get better hardware that's actually useful.

All joking aside, the real problem is distribution, especially at the national level. As usual, the fed govt. wants us to spend tons of money on equipment and not address the real failure. We could buy stuff that cost 100000 dollars for each stataion and if the garbage that's coming into it, or in this case NOT coming into it is a problem, it's still a problem. I, for one, as a broadcaster, am tired of unfunded mandates that cost me money and prove nothing but useless exercises in futility. Quit wasting my time and money FCC. Go fix your own screwed up house first then you have a right to come bother us.

 

[davideduardo]

All joking aside, the real problem is distribution, especially at the national level.

As I see it, the principal use of the EAS system is local, not national. How many actionable alerts could come from the Federal Government?

In fact, just about any "warning" that affects the whole nation would be one that you and I as citizens can not affect the outcome on.

But at a local and regional level, there are all kinds of things, ranging from child abductions to tornadoes, flash flooding, freeze warnings, etc., that should be communicated via every possible means.

 

[RealityCheckr]

Bengals

You made a post that made assertions with no factual basis.

You might find the site "http://www.google.com" . I entered 'amber alert success' and found this with no effort:

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2248

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

For once David, I believe I actually agree with you .

I promise I won't promote my self as a con-sultant though. Your gig is safe. (kidding with ya)

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Don't tlak about our EBS being outdated and useless because some idiot government elected official will exchange it for an equally useless (but costing us more money to implement) replacement.

Sound familiar? Just be quiet about this until I can con someone into buying a box I make that will be outdated in 5 years to exchange for another soon to be outdated box.

 

[Bengalsfan]

Bengals

You made a post that made assertions with no factual basis.

Oh really? Which one was that?

You might find the site "http://www.google.com" . I entered 'amber alert success' and found this with no effort:

http://www.missingkids.com/missingkids/servlet/PageServlet?LanguageCountry=en_US&PageId=2248

David was the one trying to defend the EAS system, not me. You would think he would have done that. That's the information I was looking for.

 

[RealityCheckr]

My point exactly - you were not looking very hard, even after you were told you were wrong!

<SNIP> That's the information I was looking for.

 

[davideduardo]

David was the one trying to defend the EAS system, not me. You would think he would have done that. That's the information I was looking for.

While I was defending the usefulness of the system, mostly I was stating that your statements were based on a lack of knowledge of facts that most informed people in broadcasting are keenly aware of.

Since I don't work with any EAS-responsible agency and am not presently on any EAS committee, it is not my job to google for you.

 

[w9wi]

As I see it, the principal use of the EAS system is local, not national. How many actionable alerts could come from the Federal Government?

In fact, just about any "warning" that affects the whole nation would be one that you and I as citizens can not affect the outcome on.

But at a local and regional level, there are all kinds of things, ranging from child abductions to tornadoes, flash flooding, freeze warnings, etc., that should be communicated via every possible means.

I do have some concern about locals "crying wolf".

I've had to turn off my S.A.M.E. weather radio. ("SAME" being the data technology embedded in the current EAS, and of course carried by the NOAA weather radio stations as well as by broadcasters) The problem is partially my fault -- for not replacing it with a current unit -- but IMHO it's also in part the fault of the implementation of the Amber Alert system.

It seems at least here in Tennessee, Amber Alerts are issued statewide. On two different days in the same week, we had these alerts issued late at night -- between 2 and 5am. In each case, the alert was for one of the extreme ends of the state -- in the first case for the Tri-Cities, about 400 miles east of Memphis, in the second case, for about 50 miles east of Memphis. (350 miles from the Tri-Cities) **

What is the point of awakening thousands of people in Nashville to tell them someone may have been kidnapped 250 miles away? Do we expect an offender from East Tennessee to exit the Interstate into a random neighborhood in Memphis? Do we expect the people of Clarksville to get dressed, sit on their porches, and be ready to call the police if they see a Memphis offender happen to drive past their home 200+ miles away? Isn't it at least as likely he'll go the other direction, crossing into Arkansas at the border 5 miles away? Or do we awaken everyone in Arkansas -- and Mississippi and Missouri -- as well? (come to think of it, an offender in Memphis is closer to the Illinois state line than he is to Knoxville... so I suppose we should be awakening the people of Chicago too?)

IMHO we have destroyed the utility of non-SAME weather radios by crying wolf.* I am afraid that any move to extend EAS to mobile devices ("cell phones") will suffer similar abuse.

We need to ensure from the beginning that any such scheme:
1. Allows the user to disable alerting for any category of alert. We cannot allow the "post-EAS" standard to create any kind of alert that cannot be silenced.
2. Ensures that all alerts are targeted to areas where action is actually necessary and possible. We wouldn't alarm Los Angeles for a tornado in San Francisco; why should we alarm San Diego for a kidnapping in Eureka?

* In my case, my radio supports SAME but predates the creation of the Amber Alert. It considers it an "unknown alert" -- and while it can be programmed to not alarm for alert types it knows about, like "freeze warnings", it cannot be programmed to ignore unknown alerts. Non-SAME radios cannot be programmed to ignore any type of alert -- you get them all, or you get nothing.

** In this case, the offender exited Tennessee at the nearest border, about ten miles away. She (the childrens' mother) and the children were found safe the next day on the Gulf Coast, in Florida if I remember properly. For the entire duration of the Amber Alert, they were outside Tennessee -- in areas where no Alert existed.

 

[nmoore6676]

All joking aside, the real problem is distribution, especially at the national level.

As I see it, the principal use of the EAS system is local, not national. How many actionable alerts could come from the Federal Government?

In fact, just about any "warning" that affects the whole nation would be one that you and I as citizens can not affect the outcome on.

But at a local and regional level, there are all kinds of things, ranging from child abductions to tornadoes, flash flooding, freeze warnings, etc., that should be communicated via every possible means.

David, I think that you are near enough to my age to remember the AM radios with the Conalrad positions at 640 and 1240 on the dial. The original intent of an EBS/EAS system was for national situations, that being the onset of nuclear attack presumably from the Soviet Union. I can not recall any time during that era when it was used or authorized to be used by local jurisdictions. They at that time intended for all broadcasting, AM and TV and FM to cease and then that only designated stations would go back on the air on either 1240 or 640Khz. The reason being to keep missiles from homing in on powerful clear channel stations located near big cities.

When the system was changed to the present purpose, it could still serve in a national crisis but it was given to the local authorities to decide when and how to use it. I think that there are no guidelines or universal policies in place which why it is so confused and ineffective. For instance it could be used to alert people during California's wild fires but how because they affect a relatively contained area and most radio stations cover much larger areas. I suppose that it could be manged for cable systems which can direct programming into smaller zones but now that they are consolidating that might become problematic because the smaller local headends are being phased out for regional signal processing centers.

It does seem to work well here in the Midwest, we had our first tornado watch already and the local radio TV and cable performed well. It wouldn't work for earthquakes because there is no advance warning and afterward the local media will be on that anyway. Here they have the EAS and sirens for advance warnings. I think that if there is an actual tornado headed to an area that the local police also drive around with the loudspeakers as well.

I am confused on Amber Alerts because I was under the impression that participation is voluntary. There was that one case a few years back when KFI's broadcast of an amber alert facilitated the apprehension of a kidnapping suspect up by Santa Clarita as I recall. I do not remember all of the other stations doing it and as i recall there was no broadcast of the alert buzz tones anyplace.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I think that you are near enough to my age to remember the AM radios with the Conalrad positions at 640 and 1240 on the dial. The original intent of an EBS/EAS system was for national situations, that being the onset of nuclear attack presumably from the Soviet Union. I can not recall any time during that era when it was used or authorized to be used by local jurisdictions. They at that time intended for all broadcasting, AM and TV and FM to cease and then that only designated stations would go back on the air on either 1240 or 640Khz. The reason being to keep missiles from homing in on powerful clear channel stations located near big cities.

Yes, I even recall DXing dozens of Canadian stastions during several full tests of the EBS around noon, where all US stations were off the air.

CONELRAD was developed at the height of the neuclear threat... when people built bomb shelters in the yard and there were regular drills at school. Many stations could move to 640 or 1240 and in any area, different ones cycled on and off the air, all at low power, in some kind of predetermined sequence which was likely a secret. Of course, this occured when the memory of the Pearl Harbor bombing was fresh, and we had learned that KGU, I believe, was used as a homing beacon.