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Why dropping "Oldies" is wrong

XM RADIO said:
Doug, I dont live by a forest, and I dont need to be near a tree to enjoy XM or Sirius, face it As of today, 12/18/06 Bay Area Radio is boring, Satelite is "Where it At"!!!! Terrestrial radio made this choice, no Oldies, People are off to Satelite, I will bet theres alot more XM s and Sirius radios given this Christmas than a AM/FM plain radio!! Is 12.95 too much for you?

This is wrong on multiple points.

First, buth Sirius and XM have reported November new subscribers about 40% below last year's November... remebering that the week of Thanksgiving is the most important Christmas shopping week in the season. Both companies are giving advisories of weaker than anticipated holiday sales.

Kramer called Sirius "Mel Karmazi´s first big mistake" and suggested shorting the stock.

Oldies is a niche format. In most cases, it is today a 3 to 5 share format in larger markets where there is still an oldies station. Even in 55+, it has vastly less than a tenth of the listeneing... most people in the (totally useless for terrestrial radio) oldies demos do not listen to oldies at all.
 
Hardly a niche format in these markets! 95% our top 5 in their markets. And of course your forgetting the hundreds of small market oldies stations in unrated markets.

KOOL-FM Oldies Phoenix
KLOU-FM Oldies St. Louis
WGRR-FM Oldies Cincinnatti
WODS-FM Oldies Boston
WOGL-FM Oldies Philadelphia
WMJI-FM Oldies Cleveland #1 overall
WOMC-FM Oldies Detroit
WRIT-FM Oldies Milwaukee
WHTT-FM Oldies Buffalo
KLUV-FM Oldies Dallas
KONO-FM/KONO-AM Oldies San Antonio (Hmm...ranked #3 overall)
KBSG-FM Oldies Seattle
KCMO-FM Oldies Kansas City
KODJ-FM Oldies Salt Lake City
WWBB-FM Oldies Providence

It just proves that good program directors, on air talent, and yes the company itself remaining dedicated to the format can succeed.

So lets talk about niche formats David! Because oldies is certainly not in that category yet.
 
lash said:
Hardly a niche format in these markets! 95% our top 5 in their markets. And of course your forgetting the hundreds of small market oldies stations in unrated markets.

In 25-54, with one or two exceptions (driven by a morning show, not the music) none of these stations even cumes 10% of the market... I'll snip most and mention one good example in a top-5 market. And one in a smaller market.

KLUV-FM Oldies Dallas

This has less than a 4 share 12+ but is 14th in the market in 25-54, so most of the listeners are out of the usable demos. At any given time, less than 1 person out of 200 is listening to this station in Dallas. Given the fact that it has no competitor, what is around a 3 share and arond a half of a rating point is not mass appeal.

KONO-FM/KONO-AM Oldies San Antonio (Hmm...ranked #3 overall)

This station is 4th in 25-54, with essentialy none of its listening coming from AM.

But what makes this station work is that 60% of its listening is done by those pesky ethnic folks. In this case, Hispanics. That is because Ole' San Antone Hispanics are mostly 3rd generation and beyond and grew up on Top 40! I hate to spoil your day, but were the station ranked only on those non-ehtnic folks you seem to like to program to, it would be out of the top 10. Ooops.

It just proves that good program directors, on air talent, and yes the company itself remaining dedicated to the format can succeed.

Actually, it is market demos that make it succeed in the markets where oldies still have decent 25-54... or a morning show that is responsible for most of the (non-music) listening. In the other places you mentioned, around 60% of the AQH listening is 55+, and those are all transactional markets where those 55+ listeners are not taken into account at all...

So lets talk about niche formats David! Because oldies is certainly not in that category yet.

Unless a format has significant double digit numbers, it is niche. Nearly all stations are niche stations, and most formats are niche formats.
 
last remaining?

Thanks, Lash- you've unknowingly helped make my point. You've listed just about every REMAINING Oldies station left in the top 50 markets. Let's try this exercise, the markets where Oldies was dropped from the FM dial and is now not on:

New York City
Baltimore
Atlanta
Washington
Milwaukee
Tampa
West Palm Beach
Jacksonville
Orlando
Houston
Tuscon
Portland
San Francisco
San Diego
Austin
Sacramento
Memphis
Indianapolis
Charlotte
Las Vegas
Rochester
Birmingham
Richmond
Fresno
Knoxville
El Paso
McAllen-Brownsville
Harrisburg
Little Rock
Mobile
Colorado Springs

And those are just the top 100s I can think of- I'm sure there are more. And, by the way, you should do your homework: WRIT in Milwaukee dropped Oldies months ago, San Antonio considers themselves Classic Hits (60s/70s) and Providence has been classic hits for months. In fact, it could be argued many of the stations you list are not really classic Oldies anymore but 60s/70s hits (and even 80s mixed in, which is an abomination against the doo wop Gods, I figure).


lash said:
Hardly a niche format in these markets! 95% our top 5 in their markets. And of course your forgetting the hundreds of small market oldies stations in unrated markets.

KOOL-FM Oldies Phoenix
KLOU-FM Oldies St. Louis
WGRR-FM Oldies Cincinnatti
WODS-FM Oldies Boston
WOGL-FM Oldies Philadelphia
WMJI-FM Oldies Cleveland #1 overall
WOMC-FM Oldies Detroit
WRIT-FM Oldies Milwaukee
WHTT-FM Oldies Buffalo
KLUV-FM Oldies Dallas
KONO-FM/KONO-AM Oldies San Antonio (Hmm...ranked #3 overall)
KBSG-FM Oldies Seattle
KCMO-FM Oldies Kansas City
KODJ-FM Oldies Salt Lake City
WWBB-FM Oldies Providence

It just proves that good program directors, on air talent, and yes the company itself remaining dedicated to the format can succeed.

So lets talk about niche formats David! Because oldies is certainly not in that category yet.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Unless a format has significant double digit numbers, it is niche. Nearly all stations are niche stations, and most formats are niche formats.

radio had kinda come to that. when u look at various derivations of each format almost everything IS a niche format
 
Tell Arbitron to make the proper changes. And I proved my point. A well programmed oldies station survives, and makes money. Break down the demos all you want.
 
Interesting, interesting, interesting note.

Look at Chris Lash's list, then look at Oldies Cat's list. (n.b., Chris--perhaps intentionally (see, e.g., speculation over at the Steel City board)--left off 3WS, WWSW-FM, Pittsburgh).

Tell me (a) where the delineation line is drawn (note, it sort of rhymes with Base 'n Mixin'), and (b) what the population movement has been in those areas.

(Generally--there are, of course, exceptions.)

The markets with NO FM oldies station are concentrated in the major urban centers (NYC, SF), the South, and the West. It just so happens that those areas are (a) the prime locations for new corporate headquarters and other business, and (b) the largest population growth areas in the country.

The markets with FM oldies stations are, again, for the most part, north and east of the Mississippi. In other words, the old population center, Rust Belt, colder climes, and older population, overall.

It all comes down to, again, knowing your audience and knowing your market. If you have an influx of younger people flooding to New York, you're not going to waste a full signal on oldies that could otherwise program Top 40, or AC, or an ethnic-targetted version of those.

But if you're in Cleveland, and (as John Gorman once intelligently told me) you're older and still living in Cleveland, chances are extremely good you were born there. Thus, you have an older population, not as much pull from the younger folks needing to be served (there aren't that many there, and there comes a point where there are diminishing returns of too many focused), so oldies stations have more staying power.

It's simple concentration of demographics--let's say you have potentially 100 oldies listeners. 85 remain in Cleveland, for example. The other 15 have dispersed to all of those numerous better climes south and west (two to Vegas, three to Atlanta, two to Charlotte, three to NYC, one to Frisco, two to Austin, one to Tampa, one to Memphis).

What remains is a group of people who may or may not like oldies, but who, if you are programming to them, are not needing a vanilla Top 300 playlist, like K-Earth specialized in. You can target those 85% who stayed in Cleveland from childhood with more local flavor, more remembered songs from then and there, instead of just then.

Worked for John Gorman.
 
lash said:
Tell Arbitron to make the proper changes. And I proved my point. A well programmed oldies station survives, and makes money. Break down the demos all you want.

There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Arbitron. Its methodology is sound, and its limitations are more the cause of how much sample a market will pay for than the survery itself.

You proved no point. Oldies in most markets has moved out of the salable demos.

As Mr. Cat points out, many of the major oldies stations, from KONO to the one in Boise have moved to 70's based Classic Hits, not oldies.

And as Mr. Morgan quite brilliantly deducted, there is only a small core of oldies stations with big numbers, mostly in the rust belt.

And almost all these stations are down in billings and are down even more if indexed against market billings. So they are hardly "successful." They are, in fact, on the decline side of the standard maturation curve.
 
lash said:
Tell Arbitron to make the proper changes. And I proved my point. A well programmed oldies station survives, and makes money. Break down the demos all you want.

u proved WHAT?????? what U said can be said about any station in any format any where
 
Arbitron indicates the stations I listed as oldies. If they've changed since, their format titles have changed. That's what I meant by the Arbitron comment. I didn't mention any classic hits formats, including 3WS in Pittsburgh.

In the markets indicated, the format remains strong. Will it be that way a year from now. I don't know. Another reason, the format remains strong in the rust belt states, is: A) the majority of the population was there in the 50's and 60's. B) Some of the best top 40 stations in the day were in those states. People grew up with them and the music. The southeast, west and mid-west weren't quite as strong.

New York and WCBS-FM is a different story of course. The switch to JACK isn't doing well, however there's no overhead, so its probably a cash cow.

And I don't have a problem with the oldies format evolving into the 70's. Heck, I grew up in the 80's. Their oldies to me now.

Oldies still remains a viable format, and it can find a home on AM stations as well.
 
Guess I was off the ball--I hadn't noticed that Arbitron (or whoever) is calling 3WS a classic hits station.

Well, whatever. Same difference.
 
lash said:
Arbitron indicates the stations I listed as oldies. If they've changed since, their format titles have changed. That's what I meant by the Arbitron comment. I didn't mention any classic hits formats, including 3WS in Pittsburgh.

Arbitron lists identifies formats via definitons or descriptors that are either industry standard or when a group of stations belonging to more than one owner request a new defintion, such as hapened with "adult hits" with the "Jack" and similar formats. Unless there are quite a few stations and all agree on the standard name proposed, a format descriptor is not added. Int he case of "classic hits" there may not yet have been any movement to have this descriptor added; the ball is in the stations' court in any case.

In the markets indicated, the format remains strong.

With the exception of KOOL and WMJI (both driven by amazing morning shows) the format is not strong. It is at least 50% in 55+, which in that size market is not easily salable or salable at all.

Will it be that way a year from now. I don't know.

Every oldies listener will be a year older. That means even more of them will be in 55+, about 5% of total listeners each year cross into AARP land.

Another reason, the format remains strong in the rust belt states, is: A) the majority of the population was there in the 50's and 60's. B) Some of the best top 40 stations in the day were in those states.

B.S. and of the unadulterated kind. You are somehow saying that WBBF or WKBW or WPOP were better than KOMA or KTSA or KLIF (probably the greatest Top 40 ever to exist) or KIMN or KRUX or KRIZ or KENO or KCPX or KQEO or WQXI or WQAM or WSGN or KMAK? Oh, really... that is absurd.

There were good Top 40's everywhere, and they did as well in the ratings everywhere.

People grew up with them and the music.

Some people did. Remember, not everyone liked Top 40, and not everyone grew up on it. Starting with Blacks and Hispanics, you have a big segment of the US population that did not give a hoot about the music. And not all "white" kids liked it either, or stations would have had 100% shares, which they did not.

The southeast, west and mid-west weren't quite as strong.

Just wrong.

New York and WCBS-FM is a different story of course. The switch to JACK isn't doing well, however there's no overhead, so its probably a cash cow.

It may be doing better in 25-54 than the oldies format, so that means it is a better performer.
 
lash said:
Arbitron indicates the stations I listed as oldies. If they've changed since, their format titles have changed. That's what I meant by the Arbitron comment. I didn't mention any classic hits formats, including 3WS in Pittsburgh.

In the markets indicated, the format remains strong. Will it be that way a year from now. I don't know. Another reason, the format remains strong in the rust belt states, is: A) the majority of the population was there in the 50's and 60's. B) Some of the best top 40 stations in the day were in those states. People grew up with them and the music. The southeast, west and mid-west weren't quite as strong.

New York and WCBS-FM is a different story of course. The switch to JACK isn't doing well, however there's no overhead, so its probably a cash cow.

And I don't have a problem with the oldies format evolving into the 70's. Heck, I grew up in the 80's. Their oldies to me now.

Oldies still remains a viable format, and it can find a home on AM stations as well.

even more of a niche format if on AM....................
 
Someone is missing the entire point.Where is it written that only the top 40 music you listened to in high school is all that you listen to?I'm 40 and I love the 40's,50's,60's,70's and 80's.Just because that person is 25 years old doesn't mean that they won't like some oldies once in a while.There is a misconception here that only 55+listen to oldies.Doesn't apply to me.
 
ceaser said:
Someone is missing the entire point.Where is it written that only the top 40 music you listened to in high school is all that you listen to?I'm 40 and I love the 40's,50's,60's,70's and 80's.Just because that person is 25 years old doesn't mean that they won't like some oldies once in a while.There is a misconception here that only 55+listen to oldies.Doesn't apply to me.

becuz U don't make money and U don't make ratings with *once in a while* listeners making up much of your audience

the idea is to have good tsl from p-1 and p-2 listeners. p-3 and below doesn't account for much cume and even less tsl

the "55+ misconception" u refer to is in reference to the typical sixties-based oldies approach. for most who prefer oldies or classic rock, the music from their high school and early college years are the most meaningful songs for them.
 
ceaser said:
Someone is missing the entire point.Where is it written that only the top 40 music you listened to in high school is all that you listen to?I'm 40 and I love the 40's,50's,60's,70's and 80's.Just because that person is 25 years old doesn't mean that they won't like some oldies once in a while.There is a misconception here that only 55+listen to oldies.Doesn't apply to me.

Why do people assume no one under 55 will listen to oldies? People still listen to classical music and no one around was alive when that music first came out! I understand that people might prefer music from their formulative years 15-21, but oldies seem to have had an effect on more than just the generation that first heard them. I know many people in their 20s 30s & 40s that love oldies and classic rock, even tho they werent even born when the songs came out. Does it mean that when the generation who first heard the oldies dies off, these songs are gone too? I doubt it. Quality should have nothing to do with the age of a song.
 
Oldies

AZJoe said:
Someone is missing the entire point.Where is it written that only the top 40 music you listened to in high school is all that you listen to?I'm 40 and I love the 40's,50's,60's,70's and 80's.Just because that person is 25 years old doesn't mean that they won't like some oldies once in a while.There is a misconception here that only 55+listen to oldies.Doesn't apply to me.

Nobody said "they won't listen". We're saying, "you can't make a living and build a large listener base from people like you". Do some people under 40 enjoy some of the Oldies music? Of course. Are the big enough in number to help sustain a loyal listener base? No.

Why do people assume no one under 55 will listen to oldies? People still listen to classical music and no one around was alive when that music first came out! I understand that people might prefer music from their formulative years 15-21, but oldies seem to have had an effect on more than just the generation that first heard them. I know many people in their 20s 30s & 40s that love oldies and classic rock, even tho they werent even born when the songs came out. Does it mean that when the generation who first heard the oldies dies off, these songs are gone too? I doubt it. Quality should have nothing to do with the age of a song.
 
lash said:
Hardly a niche format in these markets! 95% our top 5 in their markets. And of course your forgetting the hundreds of small market oldies stations in unrated markets.

KOOL-FM Oldies Phoenix
KLOU-FM Oldies St. Louis
WGRR-FM Oldies Cincinnatti
WODS-FM Oldies Boston
WOGL-FM Oldies Philadelphia
WMJI-FM Oldies Cleveland #1 overall
WOMC-FM Oldies Detroit
WRIT-FM Oldies Milwaukee
WHTT-FM Oldies Buffalo
KLUV-FM Oldies Dallas
KONO-FM/KONO-AM Oldies San Antonio (Hmm...ranked #3 overall)
KBSG-FM Oldies Seattle
KCMO-FM Oldies Kansas City
KODJ-FM Oldies Salt Lake City
WWBB-FM Oldies Providence

It just proves that good program directors, on air talent, and yes the company itself remaining dedicated to the format can succeed.

So lets talk about niche formats David! Because oldies is certainly not in that category yet.

You forgot other smaller markets in the two stations that are running oldies in the Hudson Valley and Albany

WBPM Oldies - Kingston/Saugerties, NY
WCZR Oldies - Hudson
WTRY Oldies - Albany, NY
WKLI Oldies - Albany, NY
WGNY-AM/WDLC Oldies - Newburgh/Beacon, NY
 
wkli in albany is AC not oldies

and it seems u missed the even longer list of top 100 markets w/o oldies stations
 
Alright gentlepersons, for over a week now, I've watched and read your thoughts. My conclusions are:

1. Some of you are just unhappy with ANY Oldies format, do not like the music, and seem to wish it would die. I don't know why you post here.

2. Some are continuing to pepper in their desire to smear the listeners as unuseful / undesireable to advertisers. Especially the constant incorrect labeling of the audience as "55+". That IS an old audience, but the format listeners are 45-64...NOT 87 or 79 or 81 years old, as a "+" would indicate. It is my contention that the format is extremely profitable for another 5 years at least, WITH a sales team who know who to target. I'm sorry, but putting a 26 year-old salesperson on the street to try and sell dollar shot nights at bars has doomed many stations with "I can't sell the demo". Duh!

3. Some are format purists who would never be happy with most traditional broadcast Oldies stations. And if the music was OK, you'd start bitchin' about the processing levels. You found a home with satellite and internet radio. Good for you.

4. Some of you are former Jocks, longing for the "old days". Those days will return with the demise of the computer and the return of 16" transcriptions turntables. It ain't gonna happen. Some of you sound like Jock wannabes whose train has left the station, and seem bitter.

5. ALL of you have made valid points.
 
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