Why dropping "Oldies" is wrong

[cyberdad]

Ditto amfmsw!

 

[OldiesCat]

agree-some good points

Alright gentlepersons, for over a week now, I've watched and read your thoughts. My conclusions are:

1. Some of you are just unhappy with ANY Oldies format, do not like the music, and seem to wish it would die. I don't know why you post here.

2. Some are continuing to pepper in their desire to smear the listeners as unuseful / undesireable to advertisers. Especially the constant incorrect labeling of the audience as "55+". That IS an old audience, but the format listeners are 45-64...NOT 87 or 79 or 81 years old, as a "+" would indicate. It is my contention that the format is extremely profitable for another 5 years at least, WITH a sales team who know who to target. I'm sorry, but putting a 26 year-old salesperson on the street to try and sell dollar shot nights at bars has doomed many stations with "I can't sell the demo". Duh!

3. Some are format purists who would never be happy with most traditional broadcast Oldies stations. And if the music was OK, you'd start bitchin' about the processing levels. You found a home with satellite and internet radio. Good for you.

4. Some of you are former Jocks, longing for the "old days". Those days will return with the demise of the computer and the return of 16" transcriptions turntables. It ain't gonna happen. Some of you sound like Jock wannabes whose train has left the station, and seem bitter.

5. ALL of you have made valid points.

1) I am not among those. I love Oldies radio but I am realistic enough to understand what's going on.

2) The average 60s-based Oldies stations' target audience is indeed around 60. When KFRC dumped the format, much of the reason was because they found
their average listener was 62 years old. But, even using your example of 45-64, THERE ARE NO 45-64 ad buys being placed, nor 35-64, nor 50+. Whether
right or wrong, agree or disagree, the deal today is 18-49 and 25-54, period. This is advertisers dictating where to place the buys and since they control
where their ad dollars are directed, whether you have a 26 or 45 year old salesperson calling on clients is beside the point. The best they can hope for
in substantially sized (Top 50) markets is a ton of direct business, which is about 10 times as hard to get vs. agency/national. You can get some but you
cannot make a living doing it.

3) You are right about the purists- if they're not playing Wake Up Little Susie and The Ronettes, to them it just isn't "Oldies" anymore. And that's fine, it's just
not real-world. One reason the Oldies format is disappearing so quickly is that most Programmers never gently evolved the format as they went along. The
mindset was clearly, "ride this horse 'till she drops". Well, she's down and pretty hard to get back up, healthy and winning again. If you love Oldies on AM,
satellite or the Net, that's beautiful- to EXPECT major groups to just "bring Oldies back!" because a bunch of aging DJs can't cope with playing Billy Joel or
Fleetwood Mac hits isn't realistic. And, quite frankly, the backlash over vanishing Oldies stations around the country has been about 95% generated by
radio people, not radio listeners. We are much more important in our own eyes than we are to listeners (and, it's not because of consolidation or
voicetracking-it's always been that way, because to most people, we are a utility).

4) You are correct that you can't change time. And, by the way, that same "radio just ain't the same as back in the good ol' days" cry has been voiced during
every decade of the existence of radio. It is not a new thing and you are not part of some new, growing, disgruntled wave.

I know I'll (as always) take a lot of shots for what I'm posting, but this is not my "opinion" but it is the reality of Oldies radio in 2006-2007 and beyond. It doesn't mean some Oldies stations (properly contemporized and updated) can't continue to exist and do well, but anybody wishin' and hopin' and prayin' for Oldies to return to the days of Jailhouse Rock and The Shoop Song is being unrealistic.

 

[cyberdad]

Oldies Cat....

I, for one, respect your well-stated opinions. Where I disagree is when you say Oldies radio returning to the days of "Jailhouse Rock" will never happen. It already has happened. Online and via satellite.

This is why I take issue with those who lament the "loss" of oldies radio. Perhaps the format is vanishing from conventional terrestial stations. But the fact is, oldies listeners have more choices with deeper playlists and better audio quality than ever.

And here's another point. Does anyone remember how top 40 sounded in drivetime dayparts in the early 60s, for example?

I do. The listener had to listen to endless clutter (commercials, news, traffic, psa's...etc.) to hear as few as few as seven or eight tunes per hour! "Personality" from the drive time jock? Perhaps a little here and there, but for the most part what's out there now beats the h--- out of "back in the day"

 

[fred flintstone]

Some of you people refuse to get it.

Some advertisers DO target older consumers (some don't).
Advertisers target people who buy what they are selling.

They just don't use Oldies radio to sell 55+ consumers.
You want to make it about age discrimination.
It's really about the format.

Agencies do buy News-Talk which also has a large proportion of older listeners.
In fact, News-Talk reaches more older listeners and appears to be a more cost-effective format for reaching older listeners.

Mostly, though, agencies don't use radio to reach older consumers.
They use TV (lots of ads are clearly targeting older viewers, in case anybody is not paying attention).
Also print media.

Some of you want to stick your heads in the sand and blame the advertisers.
Advertisers DO sell to you.
They mostly don't use radio.
Even if they do use radio, they mostly don't use Oldies.
Check the facts and stop repeating the same old misinformation.

Now what to you have to say?
And whom will you blame now for the death of the Oldies format on terrestrial radio?

 

[Old Skool]

A lot of you bring up valid points (and some don't). But here's the overriding fact: This is NOT a radio issue. Quit arguing about The Everly Brothers or Elvis, and focus light on the real issue. IT IS THE AD AGENCIES. I was in the agency business for 15 years and understand it from the inside. Here's reality: Sometimes the target demos are determined by the client and sometimes they are dictated by the agency (depending on how involved the client chooses to be). Older demos are rarely considered as viable in "Agency Land." Why? A number of reasons. First, the folks that make those decisions in agencies are often younger than 50 and can't relate to the older tastes. Another prevelent mindset is that people over 50 are set in their ways and are more difficult to sell things to. 50+ are statistically past their prime spending years. And one final thing. AGENCIES ARE LAZY AND ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COVER. If the campaign doesn't work, they want to be able to justify to their client that the media buy was bought properly. Agencies NEVER use radio correctly. They always want 25-54 instead of selecting NARROW demos and using radio to laser beam to target that narrow demo. Even if their target is 25-44, they should bifurcate that spread into two demos, 25-34 and 35-44. They should then buy stations that SPECIALIZE in each of those narrow demos. If agenices and their clients would do the appropriate marketing homework, there would be an overall demand for a broader spectrum of demos, including targets that are 55+, than we currently witness and the oldie station would be back in a flash.

 

[radiofriend1]

A lot of you bring up valid points (and some don't). But here's the overriding fact: This is NOT a radio issue. Quit arguing about The Everly Brothers or Elvis, and focus light on the real issue. IT IS THE AD AGENCIES. I was in the agency business for 15 years and understand it from the inside. Here's reality: Sometimes the target demos are determined by the client and sometimes they are dictated by the agency (depending on how involved the client chooses to be). Older demos are rarely considered as viable in "Agency Land." Why? A number of reasons. First, the folks that make those decisions in agencies are often younger than 50 and can't relate to the older tastes. Another prevelent mindset is that people over 50 are set in their ways and are more difficult to sell things to. 50+ are statistically past their prime spending years. And one final thing. AGENCIES ARE LAZY AND ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COVER. If the campaign doesn't work, they want to be able to justify to their client that the media buy was bought properly. Agencies NEVER use radio correctly. They always want 25-54 instead of selecting NARROW demos and using radio to laser beam to target that narrow demo. Even if their target is 25-44, they should bifurcate that spread into two demos, 25-34 and 35-44. They should then buy stations that SPECIALIZE in each of those narrow demos. If agenices and their clients would do the appropriate marketing homework, there would be an overall demand for a broader spectrum of demos, including targets that are 55+, than we currently witness and the oldie station would be back in a flash.

ad agencies take orders from ADVERTISERS. their clients decide where their ad dollars will be spent

 

[OldiesCat]

Oldies demos

A lot of you bring up valid points (and some don't). But here's the overriding fact: This is NOT a radio issue. Quit arguing about The Everly Brothers or Elvis, and focus light on the real issue. IT IS THE AD AGENCIES. I was in the agency business for 15 years and understand it from the inside. Here's reality: Sometimes the target demos are determined by the client and sometimes they are dictated by the agency (depending on how involved the client chooses to be). Older demos are rarely considered as viable in "Agency Land." Why? A number of reasons. First, the folks that make those decisions in agencies are often younger than 50 and can't relate to the older tastes. Another prevelent mindset is that people over 50 are set in their ways and are more difficult to sell things to. 50+ are statistically past their prime spending years. And one final thing. AGENCIES ARE LAZY AND ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COVER. If the campaign doesn't work, they want to be able to justify to their client that the media buy was bought properly. Agencies NEVER use radio correctly. They always want 25-54 instead of selecting NARROW demos and using radio to laser beam to target that narrow demo. Even if their target is 25-44, they should bifurcate that spread into two demos, 25-34 and 35-44. They should then buy stations that SPECIALIZE in each of those narrow demos. If agenices and their clients would do the appropriate marketing homework, there would be an overall demand for a broader spectrum of demos, including targets that are 55+, than we currently witness and the oldie station would be back in a flash.

Correct-it's not a radio issue. It's an advertiser issue and today's advertisers aren't targeting 55+. Think about this in the simplest terms: if there were big revenue bucks to be had selling 35-64 or 55+, ad agencies, advertisers and radio station GSMs would be all over it. You guys crack me up! In one breath, you scald radio executives and companies for being all bottom-line, money hungry, it's all about the money, all of that. Then, you fantasize about how much big dollars there must be doing oldies and targeting 55+ but radio doesn't care.

Remember from the movie, "Field Of Dreams", the line "if you build it, they will come"? Well, if that kind of major revenue was there, all the radio groups and their stations would be all over it like the proverbial fly on s%$t.

 

[fred flintstone]

I don't know why I waste my time trying to educate some of you.
Fine. Enjoy your delusions and misinformation.
Oldies, like Jerry Ford, is not coming back - whatever reasons you all want to make up for it.

 

[OldiesCat]

educate us?

I don't know why I waste my time trying to educate some of you.
Fine. Enjoy your delusions and misinformation.
Oldies, like Jerry Ford, is not coming back - whatever reasons you all want to make up for it.

Fred, I'm afraid you are in major denial. We're don't "make up" statistical facts and common knowledge. Personally, I would LOVE to see the Oldies format stick around. But those of us actually making things happen in radio today do so because we deal in the real world, not the ideal world.

If you want to hang onto "American Graffiti" and "Happy Days" and boss jocks, that's great--for you. The rest of us in the real world of radio in 2007 will continue on while you dig out your 45s and poodle skirts.

:-\

 

[davideduardo]

IT IS THE AD AGENCIES. I was in the agency business for 15 years and understand it from the inside. Here's reality: Sometimes the target demos are determined by the client and sometimes they are dictated by the agency (depending on how involved the client chooses to be).

This may be true at smaller local agencies, but in general the client specifies the target based on who the product was designed for, who the packaging appeals to (in package goods), and who is the prime buying group where the ROI on ad investment is justifiable.

Occasionally an agency will be part of that decision making, particularly if there is some kind of addditional research being done to discover where the product's biggest opportunities lie.

But, a media buyer does not determine demos. The VPs and Account Execs may be in some way involved at times, but a buyer is a negotiatior, not a strategist. The demos are not determined in the media department.

Older demos are rarely considered as viable in "Agency Land." Why? A number of reasons. First, the folks that make those decisions in agencies are often younger than 50 and can't relate to the older tastes. Another prevelent mindset is that people over 50 are set in their ways and are more difficult to sell things to. 50+ are statistically past their prime spending years.

Actually, it is all about ROI. If an older person has somewhat more established consumer patterns, they will require more ads to convince them to change. The return on the investment is often negative... the profit on the sale is less than the cost to make it.

And one final thing. AGENCIES ARE LAZY AND ALWAYS LOOKING FOR COVER. If the campaign doesn't work, they want to be able to justify to their client that the media buy was bought properly. Agencies NEVER use radio correctly. They always want 25-54 instead of selecting NARROW demos

Most of the stuff I see is not 25-54 unless the product is very broad in appeal itself. I see "Hispanic women 25-34" and similar, not big broad demos.

and using radio to laser beam to target that narrow demo. Even if their target is 25-44, they should bifurcate that spread into two demos, 25-34 and 35-44. They should then buy stations that SPECIALIZE in each of those narrow demos.

Buys are quantified by CPP, and then most agencies worth anything make sure the deliveries by age, sex and ethnicity (if applicable) and even format duplication are satisfactory. R&F is run on the campaign given different levels of usage of different stations that come in at the CPP goals. All of this talkes a few moments on a computer.

If agenices and their clients would do the appropriate marketing homework, there would be an overall demand for a broader spectrum of demos, including targets that are 55+, than we currently witness and the oldie station would be back in a flash.

You think P&G or GM or Coke or McDonalds don't do extensive research? They know the sweet spots for both existing consumption and for growth opportunities. They know who has the biggest share of voice. They monitor competitive and research it, too, for appeal. And the people who determine demos are generally not accessable to media salespeople.

 

[davideduardo]

Some advertisers DO target older consumers (some don't).
Advertisers target people who buy what they are selling.

Agency accounts don't target 55+. As I must have mentioned 10 times now, in the last year, there were no 55+ buys announced for the LA market... the largest radio market in the world.

They just don't use Oldies radio to sell 55+ consumers.

They don't use any radio to target 55+ consumers.

You want to make it about age discrimination.

There is no discrimination when advertisers direct their advertising against the sectors of the population that might buy the product or service.

It's really about the format.

No, it is not.

Agencies do buy News-Talk which also has a large proportion of older listeners.

And they buy those stations based on the under-55 component of that audience. Were this not so, you would not have seen stations like WTOP move from AM to FM this year: the increasing 55+ and shrinking 35-54 made the owners decide to try to reinforce the under-55 by moving to the band that under-55's listen to.

Similar moves or transitions of news talk to FM have or are taking place in Phoenix (dobled 25-54 in 90 days), Salt Lake City, Dayton, Jacksonville, Tallahassee, etc. And a recent new FM n/t station in Pittsburg now beats legendary KDKA in 25-54, and a new n/t on FM in New Orleans is taking on WWL... all of this is because the 55+ part of the audience is virtually unsalable and such stations are priced based on the 25-54 delivery, not the 55+ or 12+.

In fact, News-Talk reaches more older listeners and appears to be a more cost-effective format for reaching older listeners.

You are missing the point that nobody wants to reach 55+ in rated markets... maybe in unrated small markets, suburban environments, etc., but there is not much total revenue in those places either (30% of all revenue is in the top 10 markets).

Mostly, though, agencies don't use radio to reach older consumers.
They use TV (lots of ads are clearly targeting older viewers, in case anybody is not paying attention).
Also print media.

And, mostly, direct mail and specialized publications. The major targeting of 55+ is for retirement and health care related products and services, and direct mail and specialized publications are much more efficient in delivering targeted marketing because marketers know a lot more about older consumers than younger ones as they have been in databeses longer!

Some of you want to stick your heads in the sand and blame the advertisers.
Advertisers DO sell to you.
They mostly don't use radio.
Even if they do use radio, they mostly don't use Oldies.
Check the facts and stop repeating the same old misinformation.

They don't use radio for 55+, period. Not talk, not oldies, not country, not urban AC, not soft AC, not Spanish oldies, not Latvian folk music.

Now what to you have to say?
And whom will you blame now for the death of the Oldies format on terrestrial radio?

It's radio's fault, as Oldies Cat has said, for not moving the format along with the sales demos by dropping older stuff and adding newer stuff each year over the last decade or so. Now it is too late.

 

[Old Skool]

You think P&G or GM or Coke or McDonalds don't do extensive research? They know the sweet spots for both existing consumption and for growth opportunities. They know who has the biggest share of voice. They monitor competitive and research it, too, for appeal. And the people who determine demos are generally not accessable to media salespeople.

Dave, my agency was a major one. ($100,000,000+ back 10 years ago). I agree that the very large national advertisers do their homework, which is why GM will buy 55+ for Cadillac or Ford for Lincoln. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough older target clients to support oldies (as I think you would agree). I actually think that this will change over time.

 

[davideduardo]

Dave, my agency was a major one. ($100,000,000+ back 10 years ago).

A couple of local agencies in San Juan, PR bill $100 million.

I agree that the very large national advertisers do their homework, which is why GM will buy 55+ for Cadillac

Cadillac buys 35-44 for Slades, and 45-54 for other models. They are trying very hard to disassociate from the blue haired old lady image, and this has been extensively covered in Ad Age.

or Ford for Lincoln. Unfortunately, there just aren't enough older target clients to support oldies (as I think you would agree). I actually think that this will change over time.

The issue is, as I keep saying, the ROI on 55+ is very bad except on products and services aimed specifically at that demo. And the best ROIs are in targeted media like direct mail and special interest magazines.

And, if you were in the agency buisness, you know that upcoming campaigns are announced to the station and rep community in advance so that stations can present rates against the campaign's specific target. Our LA GM looked over the announced campaigns for all 2006 and no radi campaign asked quotes against 55+, and there were no 55+ CPP goals. So, since over 5% of all US radio revenue is placed in this one market, it would be safe to say that 55+ radio campaigns are scarcer than hen's teeth.

 

[semoochie]

Isn't the lions share of audience to conservative N/T and All News stations over 55? What keeps these stations going?

 

[radiofriend1]

Isn't the lions share of audience to conservative N/T and All News stations over 55? What keeps these stations going?

a-most are on the am band

b-most are syndicated programming heavy requiring less local talent & resources

c-n/t stations carry about a 40% heavier spot load, so they can afford to sell for less-per-unit

d-most aren't expected to be huge 25-54----some are but it's not the same expectation that music-driven adult FM stations have

 

[davideduardo]

Isn't the lions share of audience to conservative N/T and All News stations over 55? What keeps these stations going?

LA's KFI, which is a top-5 station of recent, is about 52% 55+ and the rest in 25-54.

When such stations move to FM, like WTOP and KTAR, the demos become more like 60% to two-thirds 25-54.

 

[semoochie]

There are relatively few AM stations with 12+ ratings success and far fewer in 25-54. It sounds like what we're really talking about is the worth of the FM stick and I can certainly see that. What I don't understand is how these stations continue to make money if their money demos are low to nonexistent. Since this is an LA board, I don't believe KABC, KNX and KFWB have what I would call steller ratings in 25-54.(If KABC has since made inroads into their ratings problems, I'm unaware of it.)

 

[amfmsw]

WBBM, KMOX, KYW to KNX sell the concept of their quality audience. Same as WCBS 880 and WINS 1010 NY, but the sister FM sales team didn't "get it". And Oldies management listened to "I can't sell these demos" while the AM's sold the EXACT SAME demos for top $$.

 

[davideduardo]

WBBM, KMOX, KYW to KNX sell the concept of their quality audience. Same as WCBS 880 and WINS 1010 NY, but the sister FM sales team didn't "get it". And Oldies management listened to "I can't sell these demos" while the AM's sold the EXACT SAME demos for top $$.

Most of these sell reach as a supplement to campaigns, as they are huge cumers.

In the case of the three all news stations, they do get enough 25-54 to be of value, and they have benefited from a lot of interest in 45-54 by a group of advertisers in recent years. Unfortunately, news is not viable outside the top few markets as there is not enough cume in smaller markets to make such stations viable at the high cost levels they involve. In the big cities, though, they can sell using reach and frequency analysis to show how adding a news station signficiantly increases reach on a buy and picks up listeners whose primary station may be one that is not getting bought.

The biggest issue is inventory. News or n/t can run lots of cheaper spots, while FMs with lower unit counts can not. The AMs make it up on volume, albeit at lower rates. Add to that the foreground nature of the formats, and you have apowerful selling environment for many categories... local advertisers like n/t because it delivers on appropriate categories.

 

[davideduardo]

There are relatively few AM stations with 12+ ratings success and far fewer in 25-54. It sounds like what we're really talking about is the worth of the FM stick and I can certainly see that. What I don't understand is how these stations continue to make money if their money demos are low to nonexistent. Since this is an LA board, I don't believe KABC, KNX and KFWB have what I would call steller ratings in 25-54.(If KABC has since made inroads into their ratings problems, I'm unaware of it.)

La is a $1.1 billion dollar market... there is big money even if you are below #20 here.