Why No Urban AC - Cut to the Chase

[longhorn2004]

1. Stop using Jammin 105.9 as an example, as an African American it makes me puke as its held up as an "R&B" station. A true R&B station is KISS 103.1 out Copperas Cove which is the #1 station in the Central Texas area (yeah, who would have figured there are more African Americans in the middle of Texas than Austin). The aforementioned station out of Houston 102.1 is another great example or 105.9 out of Dallas.

2. What needs to happen is for 103.1 owned by Cumulus to boost KISS 103's signal so that it can reach the Austin area. Heck one can pickup 97.5 out of Waco in North Austin and sometimes they are playing the same playlist as 96.7. Of course 97.5 is 100K watt blowtorch too.

3. With the advent of Pandora, this whole thread is probably a moot point anyway.

 

[longhorn2004]

Or maybe Cumulus could simucast the signal on a station here in Austin. Just like ESPN Central Texas is on three different stations in Waco, Temple and Killeen which can be heard in Georgetown on 106.9 FM while ESPN Austin cannot be head on 104.9FM (though it can be heard on 1260am).

 

[Kent]

1. A true R&B station is KISS 103.1 out Copperas Cove which is the #1 station in the Central Texas area (yeah, who would have figured there are more African Americans in the middle of Texas than Austin). The aforementioned station out of Houston 102.1 is another great example or 105.9 out of Dallas.

The African American population in Killeen-Temple is roughly 20% compared to Austin's 7%.

2. What needs to happen is for 103.1 owned by Cumulus to boost KISS 103's signal so that it can reach the Austin area. Heck one can pickup 97.5 out of Waco in North Austin and sometimes they are playing the same playlist as 96.7. Of course 97.5 is 100K watt blowtorch too.

Might be a nice fantasy, but it won't happen. Moving it much further south wouldn't easily clear KBPA 103.5 while boosting its power would cause problems with KWBU 103.3 in addition to 103.5. By the way, Cumulus is in the process of selling its Killeen-Temple stations to Townsquare. So, you probably won't see them invest much extra in it over the next few months (not that they were putting much into it in the first place).

3. With the advent of Pandora, this whole thread is probably a moot point anyway.

I have to say that Pandora doesn't really do much for me. I get the so-called "Pandora-fatigue" that you hear industry pundits talk about. It just gets repetitive to me by an hour or so of listening. I much prefer the "Slow Jams" feed on iHeartRadio to Pandora, though I'm not in an urban AC's target audience nor do I listen to it frequently.

 

[fredcantu]

Just like ESPN Central Texas... can be heard in Georgetown on 106.9 FM

What about that LPFM KXPW 106.7 in Georgetown. Is it still on the air?

 

[jd]

... or 105.9 out of Dallas.

I take it you meant 105.7, KRNB. That's a good example of an urban AC.

 

[science]

I had the same discussion 13 years ago after I moved from Kansas City to Denver and could not understand why a metro of over 100,000 African Americans could not support an Urban AC. I basically got the same explanation on percentages, and the “not enough demographic to support the format” response, and as someone said earlier, that’s also assuming only AA’s listen to the format. That’s the industry criteria, and I get it. But by that criterion, Los Angeles would be devoid of an urban AC if KJLH was not still owned by Stevie Wonder. Never mind that LA’s 7% AA demo equates to over a 782,000 people. in my opinion, a lot of these stations fail not because of lack of listenership, but lack of major advertiser support of the format in those markets because of the format and who it targets.

And Longhorn2004 I sort of share your sentiments (except the puke part) on the Jammin’ format as an urban format. I had enough of Jammin in Denver – it drove me to purchase an XM radio. As George Clinton would say, they’re fakin’ the funk. I wants my funk uncut!

To me a model that makes sense when the market says a commercial urban AC can’t be supported, is what Austin already has -a non-commercial urban station targeting and supported by the AA community like KAZI. Des Moines has one, as well as Las Vegas and Minneapolis. At least it provides a voice for the community.

 

[kc4rae]

...So, you probably won't see them invest much extra in it over the next few months (not that they were putting much into it in the first place).

I don't live in Texas anymore, but when I was able to pick up KSSM when I lived in Temple, then still when I moved to Taylor before the Austin translator move in, the audio sounded pretty bad. Buzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Not to mention the other issues it had. The processing was open...very open. But the extreme HF and the buzzing killed it.

 

[Kent]

I had the same discussion 13 years ago after I moved from Kansas City to Denver and could not understand why a metro of over 100,000 African Americans could not support an Urban AC. I basically got the same explanation on percentages, and the “not enough demographic to support the format” response, and as someone said earlier, that’s also assuming only AA’s listen to the format. That’s the industry criteria, and I get it. But by that criterion, Los Angeles would be devoid of an urban AC if KJLH was not still owned by Stevie Wonder. Never mind that LA’s 7% AA demo equates to over a 782,000 people. in my opinion, a lot of these stations fail not because of lack of listenership, but lack of major advertiser support of the format in those markets because of the format and who it targets.

Something else to keep in mind that LA has more stations. If enough of your competitors dilute each other, you can make good money with a fairly low ratings share. KIIS gets often gets about half the share KHFI gets but is still #1 6+. That's part of why I said the African American percentage you'd need to be successful with an urban AC isn't consistent from market-to-market. Austin, however, doesn't have a ton of stations diluting each other and probably won't. After all, with it being so close to San Antonio (and, to a lesser degree, Killeen-Temple, Waco and Houston), moving stations into either market is difficult and will be unless the FCC changes its spacing rules.

Also, keep in mind that KJLH barely gets over a 1 share. So, it's not doing well at all. That's kind of a shame because it sounds really good, but it's not exactly a mass appeal station nor does it come close to covering the whole market. So, yes, it's entirely possible that 102.3 would be doing something else if it weren't for Stevie Wonder owning the station.

 

[davideduardo]

I basically got the same explanation on percentages, and the “not enough demographic to support the format” response, and as someone said earlier, that’s also assuming only AA’s listen to the format. That’s the industry criteria, and I get it. But by that criterion, Los Angeles would be devoid of an urban AC if KJLH was not still owned by Stevie Wonder. Never mind that LA’s 7% AA demo equates to over a 782,000 people.

The sales demo figures... which are also fairly consistent with the target of KJLH... show only about 375,000 African Americans in the 25-54 age range. No station reaches more than about half of this group, with five formats getting between 40% and 50% cume shares... smooth AC, Churban, KJLH, hip hop oldies, rhythmic and rhythmic oldies.

The problem is that KJLH, as is typical of Urban AC everywhere, gets very very little listening that is not African American... while the general market stations get cumes approaching 2 million (11 of them average over a million in 25-54), KJLH can't get beyond about 200,000... not enough for consideration for most ad buys as the audience is very, very small by LA standards.

in my opinion, a lot of these stations fail not because of lack of listenership, but lack of major advertiser support of the format in those markets because of the format and who it targets.

If a station is ranked around 30th as KJLH is in 25-54, no matter what the format, it is not going to get on agency buys unless they are specifically Black targeted. It has nothing to do with the format. Advertisers don't "support" formats... they buy sets of ears.

Markets like Austin that can't support an Urban AC are prime opportunities for satellite, streaming services and alternative media of all kinds.

 

[science]

The sales demo figures... which are also fairly consistent with the target of KJLH... show only about 375,000 African Americans in the 25-54 age range. No station reaches more than about half of this group, with five formats getting between 40% and 50% cume shares... smooth AC, Churban, KJLH, hip hop oldies, rhythmic and rhythmic oldies.

The problem is that KJLH, as is typical of Urban AC everywhere, gets very very little listening that is not African American... while the general market stations get cumes approaching 2 million (11 of them average over a million in 25-54), KJLH can't get beyond about 200,000... not enough for consideration for most ad buys as the audience is very, very small by LA standards.

If a station is ranked around 30th as KJLH is in 25-54, no matter what the format, it is not going to get on agency buys unless they are specifically Black targeted. It has nothing to do with the format. Advertisers don't "support" formats... they buy sets of ears.

However the industry tries to rationalize it, it still stinks. I also think the corporatization of radio has done minority communities a great disservice. And I think the “no Urban” and “no Hispanic dictates” adversely affected urban stations (especially African-American owned) access to advertising revenue, even though the FCC has supposedly taken measures to eliminate the practice (that I sure some still deny the existence of this practice). That’s why I think if urban FM radio has any chance in underserved communities; the non-commercial route is the way to go-for now.

Markets like Austin that can't support an Urban AC are prime opportunities for satellite, streaming services and alternative media of all kinds.

That may be true if you only care about the music. But these alternatives do not provide the local community connections or voice; something those outside of minority communities don’t understand, or just don’t care about.

Okay. I'm through venting. I glad I'm in the Houston metro now with plenty of listening choices (KMJQ, KTSU, KCOH, KPVU, etc.)

 

[willdav713]

The sales demo figures... which are also fairly consistent with the target of KJLH... show only about 375,000 African Americans in the 25-54 age range. No station reaches more than about half of this group, with five formats getting between 40% and 50% cume shares... smooth AC, Churban, KJLH, hip hop oldies, rhythmic and rhythmic oldies.

The problem is that KJLH, as is typical of Urban AC everywhere, gets very very little listening that is not African American... while the general market stations get cumes approaching 2 million (11 of them average over a million in 25-54), KJLH can't get beyond about 200,000... not enough for consideration for most ad buys as the audience is very, very small by LA standards.

If a station is ranked around 30th as KJLH is in 25-54, no matter what the format, it is not going to get on agency buys unless they are specifically Black targeted. It has nothing to do with the format. Advertisers don't "support" formats... they buy sets of ears.

However the industry tries to rationalize it, it still stinks. I also think the corporatization of radio has done minority communities a great disservice. And I think the “no Urban” and “no Hispanic dictates” adversely affected urban stations (especially African-American owned) access to advertising revenue, even though the FCC has supposedly taken measures to eliminate the practice (that I sure some still deny the existence of this practice). That’s why I think if urban FM radio has any chance in underserved communities; the non-commercial route is the way to go-for now.

Markets like Austin that can't support an Urban AC are prime opportunities for satellite, streaming services and alternative media of all kinds.

That may be true if you only care about the music. But these alternatives do not provide the local community connections or voice; something those outside of minority communities don’t understand, or just don’t care about.

Okay. I'm through venting. I glad I'm in the Houston metro now with plenty of listening choices (KMJQ, KTSU, KCOH, KPVU, etc.)

Isn't KCOH on the way out? The other stations are non profits except for KMJQ which owned by Radio One is not doing well at the moment (Radio One not KMJQ)

 

[fredcantu]

I think the “no Urban” and “no Hispanic dictates” adversely affected urban stations (especially African-American owned) access to advertising revenue...

As someone who used to run a minority-targeted commercial radio station, I can tell you it was tough to argue with data that showed mainstream stations had more minorities listening to them than to the minority-targeted stations.

 

[davideduardo]

However the industry tries to rationalize it, it still stinks. I also think the corporatization of radio has done minority communities a great disservice.

No matter how the excuses are phrased, a commercial radio station that can not make money can not serve a community.

If a community is small, and the potential share of listening is not adequate to justify agency buys, there may be a way for a direct sales to sustain it. However, there is a point where a particular smaller group of people can not simply sustain a radio station.

And I think the “no Urban” and “no Hispanic dictates” adversely affected urban stations (especially African-American owned) access to advertising revenue, even though the FCC has supposedly taken measures to eliminate the practice (that I sure some still deny the existence of this practice).

While there certainly have been no-Urban and no-Hispanic dictates, there are also no-Controversy and no-Country or no-Rock dictates, too. When there are advertisers with prejudices or strong opinions abut one kind or another of music, there will be buys that are made based on those feelings.

But when you see good, well run and programmed stations like KMJQ or KLTN with power ratios over 1, then such practices can't be blamed for any supposed injustices. While I have seen cases of irrational buy bans, I have seen more cases where inept management or arrogant attitudes or just bad practices have cost stations buys.

That’s why I think if urban FM radio has any chance in underserved communities; the non-commercial route is the way to go-for now.

Non-coms generally depend on some kind of listener support. While there are a few cases of noncommercial stations that serve minority communities such as the Farm Workers FMs in AZ and CA. However, in these cases the communities served are as much as 30% tp 40% of the total market.

Markets like Austin that can't support an Urban AC are prime opportunities for satellite, streaming services and alternative media of all kinds.

That may be true if you only care about the music. But these alternatives do not provide the local community connections or voice; something those outside of minority communities don’t understand, or just don’t care about.

Stations serving very small constituencies with limited revenues are generally unable to give any voice or service to a community. While "community service" has a nice ring to it, there is none if a station is not successful.

Reverting to my original point: an Urban AC station in Austin can aspire to less than a 1 share of listening. The community is small, the viable sales target is only a fraction of the the total Black population, and not all Blacks listen to that particular format.

Tossing accusations about not caring or not understanding is disingenuous and ignores the economics of radio and, indeed, business in general.

 

[daypart]

These dictates seem like an important concept that should be explored, because I doubt most of us not in the industry were aware of them. I have a couple of questions for the benefit of those of us outside the industry and I'll try to ask them in a way that won't incriminate specific advertisers.

I'm curious how common they are. As a percentage of advertisers, roughly what percentage issue those no-Urban and no-Hispanic dictates?

Are the advertisers who issue them mostly local or mostly national?

Does the sales team ever try to persuade advertisers to lift them, or is the client's request never questioned?

 

[davideduardo]

I'm curious how common they are. As a percentage of advertisers, roughly what percentage issue those no-Urban and no-Hispanic dictates?

I can speak more from the perspective of Spanish language stations. While prejudices were considerable decades ago, they have lessened. But trying to determine what behavior is the result of bigotry is hard.

In the 70's, I heard direct clients in LA say, "I don't want those people in my store." Today you may hear "I don't have Spanish speaking staff to serve that group, so I won't advertise in Spanish.

Direct accounts don't have "dictates." The owner or marketing person simply does or does not buy certain formats or types of programming.

At the agency level, we have often seen "no controversy" dictates by advertisers who do not want to appear to endorse Rush... or Randy Rhodes. A maker of suntan lotion may have a legitimate reason to exclude certain formats based on statistical proof that there are ethnic groups that do not use the product for obvious reasons.

But then again, I heard a NY area general market manager for the ad campaign of a European imported card dealer association say, "Your listeners don't buy my cars. They steal them."

Today, the FCC requires contracts to say that no bias was employed in an ad buy. In that context, we are talking about agency buys, since a local direct account does not have to rationalize its advertising to anyone; an agency does extensive analysis and planning.

Are the advertisers who issue them mostly local or mostly national?

We're talking about agency buys for the most part. As I said, a local buy may be for one station and nobody really knows why one is picked and another was not. We all see cases of local direct accounts that sell a product line of interest to young adults and which buy a station appealing to 55+ because that is the station the business owner listens to. Dumb, but not a dictate.

Does the sales team ever try to persuade advertisers to lift them, or is the client's request never questioned?

For the most part, radio does not know if there is a dictate... all that can be done is analyze the buys the agency makes, or the buys the advertiser makes through the agency, and see if there is systematic exclusion of Black or Hispanic targeted stations for no reason other than ethnicity.

Discrimination is a nefarious practice. So is bribery by businesses. And like bribery, most people will not admit to it. It's unacceptable to most, and illegal, too.

The government put regulations in place, somewhat disingenuously, to try to make some of this stop. But we really don't know the dimensions of the issue, as nobody is going to come out and say, "I am a racist". And trying to convince a bigot to mend their ways is a pretty difficult thing to do, unfortunately.

 

[daypart]

<snip>The government put regulations in place, somewhat disingenuously, to try to make some of this stop. But we really don't know the dimensions of the issue, as nobody is going to come out and say, "I am a racist". And trying to convince a bigot to mend their ways is a pretty difficult thing to do, unfortunately.

Thanks for the insight. This is a facet of the business I hadn't heard of before.

As you pointed out, there are legitimate demographic reasons not to advertise on certain stations. Companies can know who buys their products with uncanny accuracy nowadays. Marketing studies can defend a bigoted choice if they show most people who listen to a station won't ever be interested in that product, so that provides some plausible deniability to get around the law.

The "no controversy" dictate is an interesting wrinkle, too, given the regularity with which organized campaigns of contacting advertisers about controversial talkers happen nowadays.

 

[davideduardo]

Thanks for the insight. This is a facet of the business I hadn't heard of before.

Just keep in mind that my post contained my observations during many years in one subset of ethnic broadcasting. Trying to analyze bigotry is difficult and picking the right words to describe a bad situation is even harder.

 

[bturner]

I really have to chime in here. The "No Buy" restrictions are set by the advertiser and not the agencies placing the buys.

Think of radio advertising as much like your consumer purchases. You have a wad of money and need some stuff. You can pick or choose where you go spend the money.

Advertisers are just as 'individual' as you are. There is no stereotype.

A few advertisers might know their potential customer so well they specifically dictate where their dollars are spent. The BMW dealer might say no rock or country. A Harley dealer might saw only rock. John Deere might stay off many stations by choice. Depending on the product, Hispanic or African American audiences might be preferred.

I do not think this has anything to do with racism whatsoever. I think that is really a LOOOOOOONG stretch. The plain truth is when a business advertises with their money, they can choose where their money goes and I think it is fair to say that in virtually every case the decision is based on the advertiser thinking it is the wisest investment for them. And, if they select an agency the agency had better do what they want or somebody else will pick up the client in a heartbeat.

Stations that typically get excluded from buys didn't work hard enough, sell well enough, were too expensive and inflexible or seemed to indifferent. Some stations even have a history of poor billing practices and such. I think if you dug to the bottom, an excluded station either was not the target market or had a bad reputation demonstrated above.

 

[davideduardo]

I really have to chime in here. The "No Buy" restrictions are set by the advertiser and not the agencies placing the buys.

That's what I just said. But the "implementation" of the buy restriction is the agency's affair, and that is why the FCC is requiring contracts specify that there is no bias based on matters like race and ethnicity and national origin.

Stations that typically get excluded from buys didn't work hard enough, sell well enough, were too expensive and inflexible or seemed to indifferent. Some stations even have a history of poor billing practices and such. I think if you dug to the bottom, an excluded station either was not the target market or had a bad reputation demonstrated above.

First, we are not talking about station-to-agency dealings for the most part, since regional and national agency buys are placed via a station's rep firm. So we are talking about rep firms that got buys for other agency accounts but were locked out of specific ones due to a Black or Spanish language format.

The "no Spanish" and "no Black" dictates on buys is something all of us in the sector have run into in the past. Of course, there was a boatload of evidence building up to the FCC action, including plenty of stories from rep firms reporting back that "there is no Hispanic" on a buy that should, logically, include Hispanics.

While much of the evidence is anecdotal or produced via analysis of buys, when you find everyone who has sold either Spanish language or Black at the national level reporting the same thing, it becomes fairly conclusive proof that the practice was going on.

The best excuse for a No Spanish dictate I ever ran into occurred many years back in LA where the marketing manager for a notoriously racist beer company said that "Mexicans don't drink beer." Of course, that group over-indexes in beer consumption...

 

[JDawg512]

3. With the advent of Pandora, this whole thread is probably a moot point anyway.

I have to say that Pandora doesn't really do much for me. I get the so-called "Pandora-fatigue" that you hear industry pundits talk about. It just gets repetitive to me by an hour or so of listening. I much prefer the "Slow Jams" feed on iHeartRadio to Pandora, though I'm not in an urban AC's target audience nor do I listen to it frequently.
[/quote]

Forgive me if i'm bringing up something old and off topic but I have not been on here in awhile. I'm not sure what you mean by Pandora-Fatigue? I like Pandora a lot, you design the station that you want. You push thumbs up for songs you like and push down for songs you don't like. I don't notice repetitiveness and if there is, then all you do is add more artists or songs to the mix. I have some stations that I don't hear the same song twice in days.