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WHY NOT IN NYC??????

radioguy39nj said:
To my knowledge, nine northern NJ counties are part of the NY media market.

Nine NE NJ counties are part of the New York "Metro Survey Area" for radio. The TV market is different. The newspaper market is different...

All of these counties have long been New York sports and media centric.

It's logical that the counties in the NY MSA be interested in NYC metro radio stations, since, for all practical purposes, no other stations put useful signals over the market or any significant portion of it.

In any case...

...we were talking about WHN, the country station... so sports is really not an issue here.

I lived in East Brunswick (Middlesex Co) and all NY FMs came in clearly. The blaster AMs (660, 710, 770 & 880) were loud and clear. 1010 and 1050 were almost unlistenable. It certainly seems like a part of NY DMA. ???

The DMA is the television market.


AM as a medium for music has been dead since WABC became a talk station in 1982. ;)

Actually, it was dead when FM passed 50% of all listening in around 1977.
 
murphmac said:
I have an online country station that does quite well. It averages over 55,000 listening hours a month and is consistently one top in it's genre listing on LIVE 365. We have about 20 percent of worldwide listeners from the New York, New Jersey area,

To put things in perspective, that's about 14,000 monthly hours in the New York "area."

The leading NY radio station has a bit over 11,000,000 listening hours a week, or about 45,000,000 listening hours a month.
 
LibertyNT said:
i'm not actually sure if any of the Radio Disney stations get any real ratings.

Low, but they show in most of their markets now that PPM measures their target, 6 to 11.
 
secondchoice said:
Country music is and has been “strong” in Canada for decades.

Ah, but not in Toronto, if you want the most useful comparison point to NYC.
 
Element9 said:
What kind of demo would Country attract? Would a substantial number of listeners flock to AM Country? Despite the stereotype, Country listeners are not rubes. They buy CDs and videos and download their favorite music as well. Would it surprise anyone to find that they too have iPods and mp3 players loaded with their favorite hits.

Er, you can say the same about Tea Partiers as well--there's a movement generated in large part through new media. Yet they're still commonly stereotyped as rubes, hicks, numbskulls, inbreds. etc, etc--and not without reason...
 
adma said:
Element9 said:
What kind of demo would Country attract? Would a substantial number of listeners flock to AM Country? Despite the stereotype, Country listeners are not rubes. They buy CDs and videos and download their favorite music as well. Would it surprise anyone to find that they too have iPods and mp3 players loaded with their favorite hits.

Er, you can say the same about Tea Partiers as well--there's a movement generated in large part through new media. Yet they're still commonly stereotyped as rubes, hicks, numbskulls, inbreds. etc, etc--and not without reason...

I'm not a country music fan myself, although I admit some of the music isn't bad. However, I know many "Yuppie" types, professional, college educated (Gradute level or higher) who listen to country music regularly.
 
jmtillery said:
adma said:
Element9 said:
What kind of demo would Country attract? Would a substantial number of listeners flock to AM Country? Despite the stereotype, Country listeners are not rubes. They buy CDs and videos and download their favorite music as well. Would it surprise anyone to find that they too have iPods and mp3 players loaded with their favorite hits.

Er, you can say the same about Tea Partiers as well--there's a movement generated in large part through new media. Yet they're still commonly stereotyped as rubes, hicks, numbskulls, inbreds. etc, etc--and not without reason...

I'm not a country music fan myself, although I admit some of the music isn't bad. However, I know many "Yuppie" types, professional, college educated (Gradute level or higher) who listen to country music regularly.

From my experience, not all country music fans are rubes, but all rubes are country music fans. :)
 
DavidEduardo said:
Disney can either use the extensive station specific qualitative data from Arbitron. Or they can do even more in depth analysis by surveying a small sample of actual users. Since internet connections are often shared by entire families and information can be faked, web metrics are not so perfect either. A combination of push and pull media is actually a more efficient option.

Oh, there are no tracking cookies on my computer...

Yeah arbitron gives you demographics and geographics. And even that data is somewhat suspect, because it’s biased by the (pseudo-random?) sample, i.e. it tells you something about who got the ppms as much as it tells you about station popularity. Can arbitron tell you if your audience likes blackberry over iPhone, if it reads the post or the news, where it goes on vacation, what kind of TV shows it likes, where they bank, what phone carrier they use, how many kids they have, what kind of car they drive (or at least want), who they're favorite celebrity is, if they like cats...etc, because the Internet can.

Forget your small sample survey, that's throwing good money after bad. What are you going to do, spend $20,000 to interview 500 people? How will you even construct a survey without knowing what you want to unlock? Supposing by some fluke though you ask all the right questions; even then your data will have way too much variance to draw any real conclusions. Here’s what you’ll learn: “audiences in the zip code 11563 are 15 times more likely to own a car than audiences in 10036.” With a CI of +-20(untransformed in logit space).

Push and pull media? My marketing management textbook may have misinformed me, but from what I understand, push marketing is getting product into your channels and hoping demand occurs. Pull marketing is creating demand in your channels. Radio is extremely limited in its application to create demand. It excels at reminder ads. In my opinion, the only real marketing application for radio is the Dunkin Donuts ad at 8:00 AM, the McDonalds ad at 12:00PM, the Dunkin Donuts ad at 3:00PM, the ExxonMobil ad at 5:00PM, and the Bud Light ad at 5:30PM. I feel those are the only ads that can directly impact behavior.

And even then, I question radio’s efficiency. Efficiency is extremely price point dependent. In the case of the reminder ad, I would prefer to send text messages with targeted value propositions to known users rather than send a general message to a group that lacks a common value gap my product can fill. In the case of the general ad, like those for car companies and professional services, there is no way I would pay more for radio than I would for direct mail. Yeah, come back at me with, but radio is always cheaper because of its reach, but if I’m selling Mercedes-Benz, should I even count the 90% of the audience that lives in zip codes that cannot afford my product? My answer is no. And then radio’s costs look awful compared to direct mail.

No cookies. Well, adobe keeps your flash history on their servers. Facebook keeps your extremely rich qualitative data on their servers. And I bet a solid 7 out of 8 people keep cookies don’t delete cookies because loging in again and again is a pain.

Sharing computers = word of mouth marketing. Wouldn’t it be great if you could tell a wife to tell her husband what razor to buy, using the value proposition tailored specifically for that husband? Instant trust.

I just don’t see how radio can be used to build a brand? Even in the case of Disney. Mickey Mouse just doesn’t look the same on the radio.

It’s time to cut costs, keep only the board ops, the engineers, and a single account manager that handles mostly inbound. Between the pay-for-play tracks, let the dj’s play their own music, and save on MD and PD salaries. Run the entire operation out of one national office, no more clusters. Just milk the product for cash as it speeds down the highway to obsolescence. Use the cash to get Cognos and infoSphere integrated with the media player (which I believe will be, after amortization, cheaper than a ratings service subscription) for the sales staff and also to lock up any current talent for the online operation, and develop the core competency in Internet broadcasting before Viacom (which is doing a terrible job at it in my opinion) runs away with all the ad-share.
 
Brooklyndon said:
[Yeah arbitron gives you demographics and geographics. And even that data is somewhat suspect, because it’s biased by the (pseudo-random?) sample, i.e. it tells you something about who got the ppms as much as it tells you about station popularity.

If the sample is proportional to the universe you want to study, that's really all you need.

Can arbitron tell you if your audience likes blackberry over iPhone, if it reads the post or the news, where it goes on vacation, what kind of TV shows it likes, where they bank, what phone carrier they use, how many kids they have, what kind of car they drive (or at least want), who they're favorite celebrity is, if they like cats...etc, because the Internet can.

Custom research of any kind can tell you brand preferences. even what size cereal packages you buy. But as to ongoing consumer behavior, TAPSCAN is considerably better than most web pseudoresearch because the precise demographic characteristics of each person are known via personal interview... in the case of the PPM, dozens, if not hundreds of personal contacts over the time on the panel.

On the internet, I can be 18 or 80, male or female, Asian or European, Black or white. I can earn $1,000,000 a year or be on welfare. I can be in Keokuk and pretend to frequent The Ivey in LA.

With Tapscan, from Arbitron... as I mentioned... you can tell how a station or a format or a cluster indexes on going to LA Galaxy games in SoCal, to name a typical metric

Forget your small sample survey, that's throwing good money after bad. What are you going to do, spend $20,000 to interview 500 people?

The cost depends on the length of the questionnaire, the specifity of the recruit, the response rate of the target group.

And sample size vs. reliability is easily calculated to get the right number of responses for the acceptable margin of error.

How will you even construct a survey without knowing what you want to unlock?

People trained and experienced in the field know how to write questionnaires and trained interviewers are adept at taking respondents through various if / or gates and in following up or not based on verbatims, which often have the clue to information that can be unlocked only with a personal interview and not a pure questionnaire. THis is why more extensive projects often start with one on ones or stratified focus groups to get the "its what they mean, not what they say" out of consumers.

Push and pull media? My marketing management textbook may have misinformed me, but from what I understand, push marketing is getting product into your channels and hoping demand occurs.

Stay away from textbooks.

Broadcast and print and direct mail and billboards are push media. They do not have two-way communication (I'm not talking about people who call in requests or phone talkers) with their constituency. We measure them by separate process. THe internet is pull... the user selects things and brings them to their computer or smartphone; things like popups are push, marketing email is push... and all they are is a replication of the highway billboard and the direct mail piece.

Pull marketing is creating demand in your channels. Radio is extremely limited in its application to create demand. It excels at reminder ads. In my opinion, the only real marketing application for radio is the Dunkin Donuts ad at 8:00 AM, the McDonalds ad at 12:00PM, the Dunkin Donuts ad at 3:00PM, the ExxonMobil ad at 5:00PM, and the Bud Light ad at 5:30PM. I feel those are the only ads that can directly impact behavior.

You just named the quality that makes radio an excellent medium. It is close to point of purchase. If you are thinking about a new pickup truck, you pay attention to the sale at the Ford dealer. That one ad may tip the scales and sell multiple $30 k vehicles. It can make the difference in asking for a Coke or a Pepsi, in stocking up on sumer shirts at Old Navy, etc., etc.

Sharing computers = word of mouth marketing. Wouldn’t it be great if you could tell a wife to tell her husband what razor to buy, using the value proposition tailored specifically for that husband? Instant trust.

Instant failure The beer companies learned long ago that getting a woman to pick up the beer she was sold on was a guarantee for refusal and even family discord. Same for razors, tools, tires, motor oil, boots and jeans, etc. That's why beers use specific channels on radio and TV, and seldom, if ever, promote to women.

Some marketing truths are universal, and totally medium independent. You fit the medium to your message first, then tailor the presentation of the message to the media array you picked.

I just don’t see how radio can be used to build a brand? Even in the case of Disney. Mickey Mouse just doesn’t look the same on the radio.

And the Disney brand is not just Señor Mouse. It is the image of being family friendly, a trusted entertainment source, safety, security, warmth, tradition. If the usage of Radio Disney helps in the ongoing brand reinfocement and building, then it is of value. Remember, we are talking about a company whose headquarters building is "held up" by columns representing the seven dwarfs where making every day a trip to the Magic Castle is the goal.

It’s time to cut costs, keep only the board ops, the engineers, and a single account manager that handles mostly inbound. Between the pay-for-play tracks, let the dj’s play their own music, and save on MD and PD salaries. Run the entire operation out of one national office, no more clusters. Just milk the product for cash as it speeds down the highway to obsolescence. Use the cash to get Cognos and infoSphere integrated with the media player (which I believe will be, after amortization, cheaper than a ratings service subscription) for the sales staff and also to lock up any current talent for the online operation, and develop the core competency in Internet broadcasting before Viacom (which is doing a terrible job at it in my opinion) runs away with all the ad-share.

[/quote]
 
I love these threads. It's always the same thing: "if Fargo ND can have a country station, why not NYC?" And explaining to the naysayers that the folks in Fargo "are not rubes. They buy CDs and videos and download their favorite music as well. Would it surprise anyone to find that they too have iPods and mp3 players loaded with their favorite hits."

Come to think of it, in terms of the post-radio-hit-parade reality of 2010, there's something terribly unsophisticated-dipstick-anachronistic about the term "favorite hits", as opposed to just plain favorite *music*...
 

Thank you for that explanation of push versus pull media. I found it informative. And while I raise some valid point about data collection costs, data uniformity, and data collection costs; you certainly raise an excellent point about the quality of Internet data.

I think you highlighted a major philosophical gulf between us when you said that its best to craft a message and then select a medium that transmits it with as little content loss as possible. I feel its best to select a medium closest to the point of purchase or usage and craft a message that fits the medium.

But I'm the one watching from the sidelines and you are the one in the game, so, after noting that you did not make the case that radio is the more efficient medium for communications, I'll defer to your expertise.
 
adma said:
I love these threads. It's always the same thing: "if Fargo ND can have a country station, why not NYC?"

I made a similar argument while I was OM at an AM station in Gainesville, Florida in the early '80s. We had flipped from Top 40 to Adult Contemporary and our consultant was based in Chicago. Our entire music playlist was researched in Chicago, so every song in our music library was a Chicago favorite, but not necessarily liked by our Gainesville listeners. Our parent company later acquired a San Francisco FM, and the same thing happened. The format was based on research from Chicago. To say the least, both stations were sold within a year.

However, I do believe a country music void exist in NYC. I'm not basing that on the fact that it works or doesn't work in any other market as I never use what is successful in one market as a benchmark for an entirely different market. I am basing my opinion on what is missing in New York.
 
jmtillery said:
However, I do believe a country music void exist in NYC. I'm not basing that on the fact that it works or doesn't work in any other market as I never use what is successful in one market as a benchmark for an entirely different market. I am basing my opinion on what is missing in New York.

Well, duh. There's no country station in NYC. Therefore, there's a void. Thanks, Einstein.
 
The financial angle of a station trying country in NYC is something most people on this board (me included) will never know. Would you go live, voice tracked, or a satellite feed? If someone does try, it would be a gamble. I do not think it will be a “big time” operator (CBS, CC, Citadel etc.). I feel a “second” tier operator who has “nothing to lose”; (bad billings) could make the jump. Then if they do succeed watch a “major” signal wipe them out.
 
adma said:
jmtillery said:
However, I do believe a country music void exist in NYC. I'm not basing that on the fact that it works or doesn't work in any other market as I never use what is successful in one market as a benchmark for an entirely different market. I am basing my opinion on what is missing in New York.

Well, duh. There's no country station in NYC. Therefore, there's a void. Thanks, Einstein.

Thank you for the high compliment. I've never been compared to such a brilliant man as Einstein until now.
 
secondchoice said:
The financial angle of a station trying country in NYC is something most people on this board (me included) will never know. Would you go live, voice tracked, or a satellite feed? If someone does try, it would be a gamble. I do not think it will be a “big time” operator (CBS, CC, Citadel etc.). I feel a “second” tier operator who has “nothing to lose”; (bad billings) could make the jump. Then if they do succeed watch a “major” signal wipe them out.

I think it would be mostly a matter of using "tried and true" methods, meaning live during critial day-parts and voice-track during the rest of the day and evening. I realize the current and former jocks reading this won't necessarily like the idea that I suggest using any form of voice-tracking. I used to be on-air myself years ago, so I understand the thinking behind the rationale, but considering the overall landscape of how radio has changed over the past 30-years, it comes down to pure economics.

As you have suggested, a second tier operator may just very well be the entity to pull it off and succeed.
 
adma said:
jmtillery said:
However, I do believe a country music void exist in NYC. I'm not basing that on the fact that it works or doesn't work in any other market as I never use what is successful in one market as a benchmark for an entirely different market. I am basing my opinion on what is missing in New York.

Well, duh. There's no country station in NYC. Therefore, there's a void. Thanks, Einstein.

I'll further expound by saying you are incorrect that there is a void simply because no such outlet exist. It's only a real void if there is a demand for what is missing. If no such demand exist, the fact that something is missing does no create a void. It comes down to very elementary supply or availability and demand. Einstein signing off.
 
secondchoice said:
The financial angle of a station trying country in NYC is something most people on this board (me included) will never know. Would you go live, voice tracked, or a satellite feed? If someone does try, it would be a gamble. I do not think it will be a “big time” operator (CBS, CC, Citadel etc.). I feel a “second” tier operator who has “nothing to lose”; (bad billings) could make the jump. Then if they do succeed watch a “major” signal wipe them out.

There was Y-107, a country trimulcast on 107.1 in New Jersey, Westchester County and Eastern LI. I think it was operated by Big City, who later went bankrupt. When they went under, no "major" signal stepped in to replace it. :)
 
radioguy39nj said:
secondchoice said:
The financial angle of a station trying country in NYC is something most people on this board (me included) will never know. Would you go live, voice tracked, or a satellite feed? If someone does try, it would be a gamble. I do not think it will be a “big time” operator (CBS, CC, Citadel etc.). I feel a “second” tier operator who has “nothing to lose”; (bad billings) could make the jump. Then if they do succeed watch a “major” signal wipe them out.

There was Y-107, a country trimulcast on 107.1 in New Jersey, Westchester County and Eastern LI. I think it was operated by Big City, who later went bankrupt. When they went under, no "major" signal stepped in to replace it. :)

Was this before PPM? Based on prior experience (Not in NYC) a “rim shot” or group of “rim shots” will have a hard time in the "core" city with lots of steel. NYC is the poster child for signal blocking buildings, and lots of people living in those buildings. You should have a signal that will stop on a scan on most radios on the street. A weak signal that does not penetrate buildings can be off set but a good stream. PPM might make the difference. Does PPM “log” web audio feeds of radio stations? If so, a couple of the PPM wearers with the stream in the back round could help the cume.
 
secondchoice said:
radioguy39nj said:
secondchoice said:
The financial angle of a station trying country in NYC is something most people on this board (me included) will never know. Would you go live, voice tracked, or a satellite feed? If someone does try, it would be a gamble. I do not think it will be a “big time” operator (CBS, CC, Citadel etc.). I feel a “second” tier operator who has “nothing to lose”; (bad billings) could make the jump. Then if they do succeed watch a “major” signal wipe them out.

There was Y-107, a country trimulcast on 107.1 in New Jersey, Westchester County and Eastern LI. I think it was operated by Big City, who later went bankrupt. When they went under, no "major" signal stepped in to replace it. :)

Was this before PPM? Based on prior experience (Not in NYC) a “rim shot” or group of “rim shots” will have a hard time in the "core" city with lots of steel. NYC is the poster child for signal blocking buildings, and lots of people living in those buildings. You should have a signal that will stop on a scan on most radios on the street. A weak signal that does not penetrate buildings can be off set but a good stream. PPM might make the difference. Does PPM “log” web audio feeds of radio stations? If so, a couple of the PPM wearers with the stream in the back round could help the cume.

The Y-107 trimulcast was in the early 2000s, well before PPM. None of the three 107.1's could penetrate NYC. :)
 
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