WINS goes iboc When Did This Happen? (aircheck)

[LinoNYC]

THIS JUST IN in the "great-news-from IBOC" press service! TWENTY-FIVE Accurians/BAs reported sold in New York

---Um, that was "at one location". I gotta hear one of your newscasts..someday.

You must be a hoot with stories you don't like. You are going to have alot of fun these next four years.

]So your RS reported "no returns." Given personal (albeit nonscientific) observation of HD Radio at retail

You left out "supposedly" -that's there to show that I have some doubt and can not prove their assertion.

Truth. Credibility. Try them sometime.

virtually all posts on this board, this is highly unusual. Note the comments here about how the Sony XDR tabletop receiver is already on clearance at a "toss-out-the-door" price.

Based on what...naysayer cred is pretty much blown to the dogs on this board, an example of which you shall evince in this next extract:

BTW, I've heard from a reliable industry website host and internal sources at CBS, the engineering staff at "NYC's #1 news station" is in practically open revolt over WINS' recent implementation of IBOC. Reports from "market #1" are that the self-interference on 1010 is horrible. I'm told Glynn Walden and a small handful of his disciples are the only CBS people still supporting IBOC.

You out to know better than to try one of these tricks when there is someone who actually works in that organization.

And then:

If anything, the evidence is mounting that HD sideband interference is further eroding AM audiences.

You do have some proof of this assertion...don't you?

Try as I might using Arbitron, Ican't see any change that iboc has brought pro-con.

Your comment about "few listening to AM" sounds like about 90% personal shot and 10% actual observation on HD listenership,

You are being hyper-sensitive..and perceptive.

You keep braying about how HD "is the only thing that offers any hope of AM radio survivng." You also frequently demand proof for the assertions of others on this board.

And I shall continue to do-so as long as you type tripe here (and any other forum that'll grant you a password)

Try honesty, all of this will go away.

The irony of your comment about how I "have abundant time to cruise these boards" should be apparent to anyone.

Well you certainly have been prolific. How's the website coming?

Lino

 

[Savage]

RF, I plead guilty to not having firsthand knowledge of the CBS internal organizational hierarchy. When I wrote "the engineering staff at WINS" I should probably have referred to "those responsible for engineering management at WINS." The sources are credible. And there are several.

Is HD "making inroads?" It's fair to say that's a matter of viewpoint. I would argue that overall, the signs aren't good.

Lino....what can I say. I make observations and comments which is the purpose of this board. You respond with infantile personal jabs and put-downs of my station - and offer the unmistakable evidence that a pro-IBOCer is losing the argument: "HD is what we have now!" Everyone in the radio universe outside of certain child actors hailing from "market #1" stopped buying that ridiculous dogma about a year ago.

 

[Tom Wells]

Why hasn't there been a song making fun of HD radio yet?

There's certainly enough material. It could start with the FM buzzsaw, fade to the superhiss, and sound like the musicians
are all gargling while they sing about how radio is taking the poison like a vitamin every day.

In fact there's a whole album worth of material, isn't there?

Lets' start suggesting some titles.

1. "Bob and Ken got a thing going on..."

2. "You never-evah heard that station" ( Like you gonna hear us now)

3. "Its legal, stuff it, grampa radio"

4. "Hiss this way" ( to the tune of "walk this way ).

 

[JJS]

Why hasn't there been a song making fun of HD radio yet?

There's certainly enough material. It could start with the FM buzzsaw, fade to the superhiss, and sound like the musicians are all gargling while they sing about how radio is taking the poison like a vitamin every day.

HD radio doesn't have enough cultural currency to support a song. But yours is the nucleus of an excellent idea.

What's needed is a song about the former glory of AM radio and its lingering descent into grinding hash, endless interruptions and irrelevance. A skillful writer would capture the nation's love and loss, just as "City of New Orleans" did for passenger railroads and "Murder on Music Row" did for Nashville.

Except there would be that little problem of getting play on radio. Still a dealbreaker.

 

[clouseau]

Why hasn't there been a song making fun of HD radio yet?

Maybe because the 5-10 of you have no musical talent.

How about a rap song... About something else

LIKE...


I jammed to Philly AM, since back in '67
'Fil & Wibbage, It sounded just like heaven

And then in '74, I went to work for cash
Salad Bowls and Soup Crocks, I washed to build my stash..

I got myself a job, at 202 & VF.
The AM by the dishwasher was not so Doggone Cle-ar.

We just wanted the songs. It weren't about the Hi-Fi
The station we could hear. From Decker Square was WiFi.

The music was the same, from 'Fil & Wibbage,
The top five in rotation... Every 75 minutes.

The AM it was better. We listened in our cars.
But in the crappy kitchen, WIFI, they was ours.

The AM it was better, to that there is no doubt.
But in that crappy kitchen, 92 won out.

And pretty soon I had, that converter in my car.
And while it wasn't 1/2 as good, it sure did come in far.

And even though I worked on Ridge with News at 3 AM.
More times than not I heard the hits on 92 FM.

The Moral of the story is sad and it is true,
If you gonna sound like AM then it's Rush Limbaugh for you.

Peace


"Who says white guys can't rap?"

I'll be here all week. Don't forget your bartenders and waitresses.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Applause! Applause! Excellent, Inspector! I happen to be the A&R representative for Kahn-Hazeltine Records, and we're prepared to offer you a contract. But you've gotta tour. Can you make a Carson Daly taping next week?

You "worked on Ridge" I assume meant you did news at WIBG?

 

[calstymes]

Savage thusly spaketh:

RF, I plead guilty to not having firsthand knowledge of the CBS internal organizational hierarchy. When I wrote "the engineering staff at WINS" I should probably have referred to "those responsible for engineering management at WINS." The sources are credible. And there are several.

The word on the street is, non-engineering WINS management is rather annoyed that its analog signal doesn't sound so good anymore since it was contaminated with IBOC.

This is really very funny, perhaps hilarious, actually. How is it even remotely possible that Mr. Savage seems to know more about what is going on in the engineering departments of the CBS radio stations in New York than Mr. Burns does? This doesn't seem possible and I would venture that it smacks of somebody trying to subvert the laws of broadcast nature!

 

[Savage]

Cal, thank you for your genteel comments here and in other threads. I don't know about 'possibilities' when it comes to what my sources know versus what RF's do. Despite the fact that Mr. Burns and I disagree about IBOC we at least have mutually respectful exchanges. I'm sure his sources are telling him what they believe about WINS. I know mine are. And they include people both inside the CBS organization and industry professionals outside WINS and CBS who are eminently qualified to observe the effects of HD on 1010's signal.

I haven't been to the NY metro to listen to WINS firsthand, and unfortunately the deployment of KDKA's IBOC eliminates any chance to evaluate their signal from this location. But from what I hear, if WINS non-engineering management was "rather annoyed" at restricted analog bandwidth before, they must be apoplectic since HD was turned on fulltime. My understanding is the self-interference is rendering the signal unlistenable everywhere but in very strong lobes. In other words, in nulls and on lobe shoulders, poor pattern bandwidth makes the IBOC hiss too loud on the analog signal.

Perhaps Cal or someone else in NYC can confirm or refute this. Or perhaps CBS people have been able to tinker enough with the DA to make IBOC and analog reasonably listenable in either pattern.

 

[BRNout]

I absolutely believe that the WINS engineers haven't heard one complaint or bad thing about the IBOC service. Then again, that is a position that is often quite insular and one where there isn't that much daily interaction with the talent or management (aside from receiving instructions). Engineers end up being so dazzled by the technology and how it works that they find it "cool." That is not meant as a criticism, it's just the way it is. The station engineer may not be an unbiased source of opinion on something like this. Depends on the engineer - of course.....

And, the average listener at home just isn't keenly aware of the station's new "thin" analog sound or of the sidebands. I'm sure that they can subtly sense that something "isn't right" with the sound, but they don't consciously listen in that way. And, if there's more static, people on the fringes just won't listen anymore.

So, I believe every word of RF's statement. However, this doesn't mean that people approve of what's happening or that it is happening to the benefit of the industry.

 

[KB1OKL]

Is HD "making inroads?" It's fair to say that's a matter of viewpoint. I would argue that overall, the signs aren't good.

Of course HD is making inroads, it makes hash buzz saw inroads into it's adjacent channels every time it's on.

 

[Savage]

BRNout makes an excellent point which frequently gets lost in the IBOC debate.

Of course stations don't get that many HD complaints. People are busy and distracted and have many media choices. If a station doesn't provide acceptable listening quality - even with 50kw - they don't bother to complain.

They just dismiss it as "noisy old-fashioned AM" turn the station off or select a competitor. And when they're gone, they're gone - forever.

As Paul Drew used to declare: they can throw you out anytime they want. And you never know when it's happening.

 

[R.F. Burns]

BRNout makes an excellent point which frequently gets lost in the IBOC debate.

Of course stations don't get that many HD complaints. People are busy and distracted and have many media choices. If a station doesn't provide acceptable listening quality - even with 50kw - they don't bother to complain.

They just dismiss it as "noisy old-fashioned AM" turn the station off or select a competitor. And when they're gone, they're gone - forever.

As Paul Drew used to declare: they can throw you out anytime they want. And you never know when it's happening.

This would be a valid argument if it could be backed up by numbers. At least in my market the adition of IBOC has had no negative effect on audience numbers. If you track the numbers of the IBOC stations over the past 2 years or so, the numbers have remained fairly constant. What AM is having problems with in this market isn't numbers, it's getting the right numbers. WABC does very well numbers wise but their audience is also tilted very old and agencies don't want age. That's why WABC, with its conservative talk format doesn't bill anywhere near what its numbers would tell you it should.

 

[Savage]

But it can be backed up by numbers. First of all, it's pretty well established that audience demos are driven by programming, not by bandwidth. WABC has the audience it has because of its format, primarily conservative talk. Expecting younger demos from that core programming is like hoping to get teens to listen to a pop-standards music station.

Besides, WABC has been running IBOC-AM for several years, at least in daytime hours. AFAIK there has been no HD-AM success story for WABC attributable to IBOC operation. Nor are there any anywhere else in the industry. The argument that HD will "save" AM is simply unsupportable from five years of field experience with the system. As stated here before over 200 well-financed, big-corporate group stations have been tinkering with HD-AM for over five years and there hasn't been a single case history of audience improvement attributable to digital, much less any case of IBOC putting AM in parity with FM.

If I understand your argument for HD it's that the system "hasn't hurt" WABC. Given the choice between continuing to run my AM in analog which "doesn't hurt," and spending $100K - $250K to convert to HD which "doesn't hurt," management common sense suggests pretty strongly to opt for the former and keep my cash.

In any event it's too soon to tell whether HD is "hurting AM." The system has only been approved for nighttime use for 9 months, and even with a tiny minority of AMs - 75 to 80 stations - using the system after dark, there have been numerous serious interference cases (besides WYSL vs. WBZ.) Possible erosion of AM audience due to increased interference will take time to evaluate, and the effects are as insidious as they are negative, as previously noted here.

Then there is the fatiguing, fake-sounding codec, the fact that receivers don't work well enough so a huge percentage are returned, the fact that receivers aren't widely available at retail, that the digital coverage is inadequate, that the system is too fragile and craps out in the real world of interference, and on and on.

 

[R.F. Burns]

AT this time I couldn't realisticaly suggest you spend the money to equip your station for IBOC. I do agree concerinng the artificial AM audio on most stations with IBOC's low bit rate codec. I have to add to this though, WFAN in NYC is running IBOC and they have outstanding audio. The reason is that they use differet processors for the analog and digital chains. The point I was making Bob is not that IBOC has attracted a younger audience. You are correct that conservative AM talk will only attract an older audience. The hope is that if IBOC can take hold that an AM facility could do more than program neocon talkers all day long. That's its long term gole. I doubt we'll see it though because in the future it is possible that some type of wide area over the air (free) internet coverage would take hold. If that occurs transmissions over the current AM & FM bcb's will become unneccessary. I am not predicting that the guy who runs his radio station in the basement will become a serious threat to professional broadcasters, imagine the Avon/Rochester resident who travels to distant cities and is still able to listen to their hometown radio station. Of course what this will do is force owners to produce local programing, because the need for over the air repeaters will no longer be neccessary. I'm going to Scotland in a few weeks and will take a laptop with me, so that I can listen to my loca radio stations while I travel. Of course at this point I'll be tied to a ethernet port, but wireless will happen and that is the future of broadcasting in my opinion. Until that time, IBOC is a bridge between what was and what will be.

 

[LinoNYC]

Still trying to pass that pile of roadapples as fact. R.F. beat me to the ratings reply, i'll have the pleasure of this one.

it's pretty well established that audience demos are driven by programming, not by bandwidth. WABC has the audience it has because of its format, primarily conservative talk.

Well you start out with some promising logic here but, as usual, have it bass ackwards.

WABC has the programming it has because AM radio does not appeal to younger listeners. This is what drove the changeover in 1982 to a sort-of mOR talk and as it's audience aged further it we.nt more reactionary.

For someone with your background to be making to be making this argument is well..lawyer-ly.

Besides, WABC has been running IBOC-AM for several years

June 2006.

The system has only been approved for nighttime use for 9 months, and even with a tiny minority of AMs - 75 to 80 stations - using the system after dark, there have been numerous serious interference cases (besides WYSL vs. WBZ.)

How many formal filed complaints? To-date I can find only yours. BTW: How have you fared with the system, are you on track to lose that "one hundred thousand dollars" due to iboc's effect on your 500W nighttime signal.

If I understand your argument for HD it's that the system "hasn't hurt" WABC. Given the choice between continuing to run my AM in analog which "doesn't hurt," and spending $100K - $250K to convert to HD which "doesn't hurt," management common sense suggests pretty strongly to opt for the former and keep my cash.

WABC, even in it's early death throes bills some $22 million/yr. You might want to try some other argument here. As for "opting to keep my cash" add to that keep my aging-out, soon dwindling audience. The whole reason for AM iboc is to try and reverse 30+ year decline trend due to poor audio.

You should play a "fun facts" sounder for this one

the fact that receivers don't work well enough so a huge percentage are returned

You wouldn't be able to back that up with anything authoritative would you (no blogs).

the fact that receivers aren't widely available at retail

I feel like Diogenes. I finally found some truth though it does seem to contradict your "AFAIK there has been no HD-AM success story for WABC attributable to IBOC operation"

Few receivers= little effect.

I know, this is another "ad hominem" attack, look at it this way: you got an audience for a change.

Lino

 

[calstymes]

R.F. Burns did thusly post:

AT this time I couldn't realisticaly suggest you spend the money to equip your station for IBOC. I do agree concerinng the artificial AM audio on most stations with IBOC's low bit rate codec. I have to add to this though, WFAN in NYC is running IBOC and they have outstanding audio. The reason is that they use differet processors for the analog and digital chains. The point I was making Bob is not that IBOC has attracted a younger audience. You are correct that conservative AM talk will only attract an older audience. The hope is that if IBOC can take hold that an AM facility could do more than program neocon talkers all day long. That's its long term gole. I doubt we'll see it though because in the future it is possible that some type of wide area over the air (free) internet coverage would take hold. If that occurs transmissions over the current AM & FM bcb's will become unneccessary. I am not predicting that the guy who runs his radio station in the basement will become a serious threat to professional broadcasters, imagine the Avon/Rochester resident who travels to distant cities and is still able to listen to their hometown radio station. Of course what this will do is force owners to produce local programing, because the need for over the air repeaters will no longer be neccessary. I'm going to Scotland in a few weeks and will take a laptop with me, so that I can listen to my loca radio stations while I travel. Of course at this point I'll be tied to a ethernet port, but wireless will happen and that is the future of broadcasting in my opinion. Until that time, IBOC is a bridge between what was and what will be.

My gosh, I'm speechless! This is BIG news!

Have fun in Scotland, Mr. Burns.

 

[Savage]

Scotland, Burns...of course! So I gather your sojourn is a visit to your family's homeland? I sincerely wish you an enjoyable trip, RF. Please don't spend too much time listening to the radio, either OTA or Internet.

See, Lino? If you carefully take the time to read the last three or four posts in this thread, you will see an example of how two radio professionals (RF Burns and Yours Truly) can actually have a civil, adult exchange while in fundamental disagreement about an issue. You know? Showing a little mutual respect, class, moderation?

Read and learn, Lino.

 

[LinoNYC]

See, Lino? If you carefully take the time to read the last three or four posts in this thread, you will see an example of how two radio professionals (RF Burns and Yours Truly) can actually have a civil, adult exchange while in fundamental disagreement about an issue. You know? Showing a little mutual respect, class, moderation?

Read and learn, Lino.

Mr "Burns" sticks to the truth, if you want respect, you should too.

Read and learn Mr. savage.

Lino

 

[R.F. Burns]

See, Lino? If you carefully take the time to read the last three or four posts in this thread, you will see an example of how two radio professionals (RF Burns and Yours Truly) can actually have a civil, adult exchange while in fundamental disagreement about an issue. You know? Showing a little mutual respect, class, moderation?

Read and learn, Lino.

Mr "Burns" sticks to the truth, if you want respect, you should too.

Read and learn Mr. savage.

Lino

Lino while we both agree for the most part about this technology and its potential, I think its time we back off a bit and try to stop insulting each other. Nothing is accomplished by it and only feeds those who go over the top and start acting childish & irrational. I understand what Bob is talking about. If I may I'm sure Bob is realizing the dream of many of us by building his dream and putting his lifes blood into it, only to feel that any chance of surrviving is being taken away by those with more power than he (which should tell Bob something about politics, but that's another story). To you and I, whether IBOC makes it or doesn't, it will have no effect on our lives. At the network level things are changing in both Radio & TV. The days of listening live or missing a program/event are going away. Podcasting/Tivo style store and play to fit your lifestyle are becoming the norm. While news, weather and sporting events can all be stored for later listening, those being live event are still programs which a person would rather exeperience in real time, but other than that, what difference does it make? Our facility is moving away from Starguide to a new system which will allow us to send our programs to a receiver at a station and in the receiver is a hard drive which the station can access to fit their schedule and it also ends the need for refeeds. All programs the station should have are on their receiver hard drive. We can also sell local spots to advertisers. By using flagging, specific receivers will play spots already downloaded to its hard drive when the network send the appropriate digitally embedded 'cue'. As I said earlier the days of stations relying on syndicated fare to make up their daily schedule are coming to an end. If a station wants to survive they wil have to invest in local talent and in the end that is probably the best thing for radio and the listener. Oh and Bob, my family is not Scottish. My daughter went to school in Scotland for her masters. She passed with "distinction" which very few in the program did. The graduation ceremony will be held in a few weeks and my wife and I are traveling there to share the experience with her. We are very proud parents.

 

[8638]

Why hasn't there been a song making fun of HD radio yet?

Maybe because the 5-10 of you have no musical talent.

How about a rap song... About something else

LIKE...


I jammed to Philly AM, since back in '67
'Fil & Wibbage, It sounded just like heaven

And then in '74, I went to work for cash
Salad Bowls and Soup Crocks, I washed to build my stash..

I got myself a job, at 202 & VF.
The AM by the dishwasher was not so Doggone Cle-ar.

We just wanted the songs. It weren't about the Hi-Fi
The station we could hear. From Decker Square was WiFi.

The music was the same, from 'Fil & Wibbage,
The top five in rotation... Every 75 minutes.

The AM it was better. We listened in our cars.
But in the crappy kitchen, WIFI, they was ours.

The AM it was better, to that there is no doubt.
But in that crappy kitchen, 92 won out.

And pretty soon I had, that converter in my car.
And while it wasn't 1/2 as good, it sure did come in far.

And even though I worked on Ridge with News at 3 AM.
More times than not I heard the hits on 92 FM.

The Moral of the story is sad and it is true,
If you gonna sound like AM then it's Rush Limbaugh for you.

Peace


"Who says white guys can't rap?"

I'll be here all week. Don't forget your bartenders and waitresses.

Clouseau



LOVE IT! Put a big ol' bass beat under that, record it, and drop it off at 100.3 The Beat!

Nice little Philly radio history rap there!