WJR hits the fan with iBiquity??

[awj223]

awj223 mentions that AM should differentiate itself from FM. I couldn't agree more. The theory in Canada for years that AM was supposed to be an alternative or compliment for FM. Both offering completely different programming, whether it was music based or not. I FIRMLY believe that it's the programming that attracts listeners, not the band. I know people who are under 30 (some in their teens) who WOULD tune in an AM station if it offered them what they wanted. They don't care about the source, as long as they get what they want.

I don't think that's an age related thing, it goes for all ages. I'm under 30 and I've listened to AM through chatter, sideband splatter, power line noise, and worse to hear what I want to hear. Sometimes I would miss plays, home runs, etc., because sideband splatter was obliterating 50% of the words being broadcast, but it was the only was to follow the game from the car while hearing my team's commentators. I've listened to signals so weak, you could literally hear the static over the speakers caused by opening the car door or pulling on the seatbelt. Class A stations go quite far on groundwave alone when properly protected. But guess what, the broadcast was almost 100% audible even when the signal was probably down in the 50 uV/m range.

So, what other segment is there? Essentially, AM is taking some of the older segment that does not mind AM. But, as has been amply proven in a couple of dozen markets, when the formats identified with AM move to FM, they do better demographically.

What, other than religion, Farsi or infomercials, could be put on AM?

Not a different age segment, a different content segment. Sports is one that works. People will listen in market, out of market, through static, etc., to hear it. It appeals to younger audiences. A lot of the ads are national and you can patronize the companies wherever you are. The teams get to reach displaced fans. It's up to station owners to come up with new formats that work, and take advantage of AM's range.

Personally I can't stand listening to sports on FM. The multipath is annoying and the range is pathetic. There isn't a single FM signal around here that I'd consider full market. No matter what mountain range you put the transmitter on, it's going to be blocked by another one. The only way to get line of sight to the entire area would be to put the transmitter on an aerostat balloon, 5000' or more up, and the FAA would probably have issues with that, especially with the fog and the proximity to SFO, OAK, and SJC. KNBR is the only real full market signal, as well as KCBS and KGO (if you don't mind its deep nulls to the east and west). Still, KGO covers the area a lot better than any FM, even the mighty KIOI. Give me the call letters of any FM around here and I'll tell you somewhere in the market where it doesn't come in clearly.

I'm not saying that the AM band can support the number of stations on it today. IMO it can't. The many smaller stations, with all of the disadvantages of a 10 kHz mediumwave channel and none of the range, have no competitive advantage. That is why I said in another post that the long term plan should be to move them to FM channels - the extra FM channels created by our friends at iBiquity. AM can then be cleared out for class A stations only, and they should use their range to differentiate themselves from their FM competitors. One thing they should not try to do under any circumstances is broadcast content that requires high frequency response receivers. That was a dumb move by WHAT. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that AM listening will ever approach what it was in the 50's and 60's any more than it's reasonable to expect radio to ever regain evening listener levels of the pre-TV era, or to begin carrying drama/sitcom programming again. But I don't think that is necessary in order to keep the band from dying out completely. We may lose a handful of stations by moving them to digital FM, but that will help increase the distance advantages of the remaining ones. I think that's a better option than letting IBOC destroy the entire band by completely eliminating any advantage it may have had.

 

[hipporadio]

Once again: Dr. Savage prescribes a conference room, Hipporadio, Supercaster, Tom Wells, Barry McLarnon, Scott Fybush, Steph, Watt Hairston, your humble correspondent, and a big stack of smokin' hot pizzas.

...And don’t forget Chuck! ‘Just don’t let him sneak-in a Pat Boone CD

 

[RadioFixerCLE]

Yeah, just like the miserably failed alternative format on WHAT in Philadelphia. If you play stuff for senior citizens, some of them will go there but most will stay on FM listening to classic rock, country, adult contemporary, urban gold, oldies, etc.

I knew that one was gonna come up.

It didn't help that WHAT, a low power signal to begin with, was running HD ... further mucking up the sound.

I never got a chance to listen to WHAT's presentation, but from what I've heard, it was pretty shabby and amateurish sounding.

I second the sports-talk format. That's one of those formats that manages to reach beyond demographics and age categories. I'm sure a good general-talk format would also grab attention. Not the typical Savage, Limbaugh, Levine peanut gallery, but largely local hosts mixing in topicality with comedy. Opie and Antony or even Don and Mike, for instance -- go beyond the boobs & beer stuff.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

If the current credit crunch the radio industry is facing worsens, and/or hangs around long enough, it could just serve as a back-door way of helping AM radio blast its way out of its apparent "programming doldrums".

If/when AM station values fall low enough, this should enable a lot of new players to enter the scene, and just maybe supply the spark of creativity and imagination the band seems to be desperately crying out for.

Just my opinion, but HD just doesn't seem to be the answer AM's been hoping for. If I can still hear a faint mild "buzz" while center-tuned on an HD AM station with my ancient GE Superadio 2, imagine what someone with a poorly crafted Chinese clock radio must be hearing? No need for me to chime in on the adjacent channel interference. It SPEAKS loudly enough for itself.

Without some serious help...and soon...it appears that AM will travel down the same path of decline that shortwave has been on for some time now. Could it be that before too much longer, voices like those of "Brother Stair", Alex Jones, and the like could be coming to a class "B" highly-directional AM near you?

 

[PhilGalasso]

Niche music formats on AM - if you play it, they will go there.

Yeah, just like the miserably failed alternative format on WHAT in Philadelphia. If you play stuff for senior citizens, some of them will go there but most will stay on FM listening to classic rock, country, adult contemporary, urban gold, oldies, etc.

Or could it have failed because the signal sucks? You could pee farther than the WHAT signal reaches.

 

[Chuck]

Once again: Dr. Savage prescribes a conference room, Hipporadio, Supercaster, Tom Wells, Barry McLarnon, Scott Fybush, Steph, Watt Hairston, your humble correspondent, and a big stack of smokin' hot pizzas.

...And don’t forget Chuck! ‘Just don’t let him sneak-in a Pat Boone CD

I do like pizza and beer... I'll leave Pat Boone at home.

 

[davideduardo]

Yeah, just like the miserably failed alternative format on WHAT in Philadelphia. If you play stuff for senior citizens, some of them will go there but most will stay on FM listening to classic rock, country, adult contemporary, urban gold, oldies, etc.

Or could it have failed because the signal sucks? You could pee farther than the WHAT signal reaches.

That, all along, has been part of my point. Of 1727 stations licensed in the top 100 metro areas, only about 250 are viable, meaning they have a signal big enough to cover 80% or more of the market day and night. That means that one out of every 7 radio stations has a fighting chance of being a "major" station by whatever standard you apply to define "major" (I would say that it simply means a significant percentage of people in the market listen to it weekly).

No matter what the other stations do, they can not be competitive for ratings and the revenue that ratings brings. Either they have to superserve a community that lives under the signal, such as KIRN in the LA area does; its signal does well in the areas where most Persians live, but overall the signal bites big time. Or you have to sell infomercials. Or you sell to religious groups that can't afford a whole station... or you sell out to one of these. Or you rent time to all the folks who think they belong on the radio, such as 1100 in Phoenix.

The problem on AM in all but a couple of markets is that there are ounly a very few, if any, viable AMs. It is not about the programming, it is about the fact that most AMs do not cover the market area. Without coverage, there is nothing that can be done to save a station other than going to a really cheap operation and the religious / ethnic / brokered alternatives that will work for some years to come.

When you have a station like 50 kw WIBC moving to FM because the audience is ageing on AM and they believe the only answer is to go where the listeners are, the idea of putting music other than standards (appealing to 100% 65-plus) on AM is simply unrealistic.

There are two separate issues. First, AM listeners are old. If you try to appeal to under 50 listeners with an AM, it will not work. It's been tried, miserably over and over in the last two decades and is only getting worse as more and more Americans are growing up without ever using or liking AM because it simply sounds bad compared to FM, web streams, the iPod, etc.

Second, there are so few AMs in the larger markets that can even compete signal to signal with C or B class FMs... that the variety of things that can be done on AM is limited by the number of usable, useful, viable, full coverage AMs in the market. There are 2934 stations in the top 300 markets, and only about 500 are viable, including borderline viability... that is still only one out of every 6 stations even when you include smaller geographic areas in the criteria.

While some are worrying about the very few remaining fringe signal or skywave listeners, the reall issue is that AMs only broadly viable format today, talk and its derivitives, is migrating faster and faster to FM and we will end with a bunch of stations in foreign languages, preaching & teaching or selling Saladmasters. While some of those uses are commendable and needed, it means AM will not be anything but glorified SCA channels.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

From David Eduardo

While some are worrying about the very few remaining fringe signal or skywave listeners, the reall issue is that AMs only broadly viable format today, talk and its derivitives, is migrating faster and faster to FM and we will end with a bunch of stations in foreign languages, preaching & teaching or selling Saladmasters. While some of those uses are commendable and needed, it means AM will not be anything but glorified SCA channels.

No David...not glorified SCA channels. Actually, glorified shortwave stations is a lot more appropriate...(only with smaller coverage).

For all intents and purposes, 1100 KFNX in the Phoenix market, and the now defunct 990 WALE in the Providence market are shortwave operations, along with the Beasley Group stations around the country, Multicultural's group of stations, and anyone else who specializes in brokering time to ethnic, religious, or folks with a product or an idea to sell.

 

[radiorob2.0]

AM radio is a dead band walking. There are exceptions to the rule in small markets where they actually do something called "serving the community"; the real definition and not the corporate rhetoric revolving around how they are better than satellite radio because they air pre-recorded PSA's and weather forecasts. There are many AM, some daytime operations, in my neck of the woods doing very well with as little as 250 watts and able to pay the bills. However, if this translator proposal goes through each one will migrate to FM because AM has so much going against it.

IBOC is a fallacy on many levels of not thinking their cunning plan all the way through. Unless cheap receivers go on the market tomorrow it will take at least a decade if not longer for adaptation, too little too late to benefit AM radio.

 

[calstymes]

Dr. Savage intoned:

Once again: Dr. Savage prescribes a conference room, Hipporadio, Supercaster, Tom Wells, Barry McLarnon, Scott Fybush, Steph, Watt Hairston, your humble correspondent, and a big stack of smokin' hot pizzas.

I am quite certain there are more broadcast industry people who would more than welcome the opportunity to join you. dumber than a box of hair and wgliradio immediately come to mind.

StephanieNYC, I must compliment you on your courage to speak out. Everybody in the broadcast industry knows that the AM IBOC system is a dog (yes, including the people who installed it) and maybe if some more brave souls like you step forward and speak their minds then more corporate moguls will stop throwing good money after bad, cut their losses and send the orders down to turn the blasted thing off.

 

[LinoNYC]

Dr. Savage intoned:

Once again: Dr. Savage prescribes a conference room, Hipporadio, Supercaster, Tom Wells, Barry McLarnon, Scott Fybush, Steph, Watt Hairston, your humble correspondent, and a big stack of smokin' hot pizzas.

I am quite certain there are more broadcast industry people who would more than welcome the opportunity to join you. dumber than a box of hair and wgliradio immediately come to mind.

StephanieNYC, I must compliment you on your courage to speak out. Everybody in the broadcast industry knows that the AM IBOC system is a dog (yes, including the people who installed it) and maybe if some more brave souls like you step forward and speak their minds then more corporate moguls will stop throwing good money after bad, cut their losses and send the orders down to turn the blasted thing off.

"Everybody"? You do know them all, correct? More methane.

Even in the diminutive universe of this board there knowledgeable insiders who regularly disagree with your take.

Broad statements usually equal idiocy.

Lino

 

[Savage]

The Department of Irony is pleased to bring you this quote-without-comment:

"Broad statements usually equal idiocy.

Lino"

 

[LinoNYC]

The Department of Irony is pleased to bring you this quote-without-comment:

"Broad statements usually equal idiocy.

Lino"

From the Ulterior Motives Dept:

Example; why does WHAM need 50kw NDA to serve Rochester, a city of 230,000, and a home County of 775,000? They'd do great LOCALLY with 5kw nondirectional.

How kind of you to be thinking of ways your dominant competitor can save on electricity.

Lino

 

[davideduardo]

From the Ulterior Motives Dept:

Example; why does WHAM need 50kw NDA to serve Rochester, a city of 230,000, and a home County of 775,000? They'd do great LOCALLY with 5kw nondirectional.

How kind of you to be thinking of ways your dominant competitor can save on electricity.

Lino

Actually, the Rochester MSA consists of 6 counties. On 1180, that requires about 50 kw to cover well, day and night. That is why WHAM is the only viable AM in the market, and bills over $6 million while the next closest AM bills less than a tenth of that. The rest of the AMs bill less than the pay of a good GSM in the LA market...

As an example, WTAM in Cleveland does not have an always usable signal at the extremes of the market at night due to interference... and it is on 1100. Cleveland is a similarly sized 5 county MSA, also on a lake which eats up about 40% of the coverage over the water.

 

[calstymes]

LinoNYC blustered:

"Everybody"? You do know them all, correct? More methane.

Of course I don't know them all. But I know enough of the people who installed it to know that they don't like it and that they do as they're told. There is not a single AM radio station anywhere that has put HD on the air that isn't struggling with its analog sound right now.

Even in the diminutive universe of this board there (are) knowledgeable insiders who regularly disagree with your take.

And there are just as many if not more knowledgeable "insiders" who agree with my take. It depends on your point of view, now doesn't it? But don't take my word for it. If you want convincing, please contact some of the engineers at some of these stations and ask them how they feel about AM HD. You will get quite an earful (off the record of course).

Broad statements usually equal idiocy.

True. Thank you for pointing that out. It is amazing how quickly the proponents of AM HD enjoy pointing out to the opponents of AM HD that they are all just idiots. Yep, you finally figured me out, except in my case, I'm a blithering idiot (a plain old idiot won't do at all)!

Thank you for the accolades.

 

[LinoNYC]

LinoNYC blustered:

"Everybody"? You do know them all, correct? More methane.

Of course I don't know them all. But I know enough of the people who installed it to know that they don't like it and that they do as they're told. There is not a single AM radio station anywhere that has put HD on the air that isn't struggling with its analog sound right now.

Yet more methane, boy, light a match near you and your toupee will blow-off.

I don't know where in hell's-half-acre you reside, here in market #1 the AM's have this iboc thing figured out.

I've posted recent analog airchecks of iboc running stations: WFAN,WOR, WABC, WNYC-am, and WCBS-am. All have their sound atleast 95% of what the pre iboc quality was.

Might I suggest that some of the enigineers in your neck-of-the-woods give a call to the CE's of the aforementioned stations.

I'am sure they'll be delighted to help.

I'm a blithering idiot (a plain old idiot won't do at all)!

How cute. Dead-on.

Lino

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

LinoNYC blustered:

"Everybody"? You do know them all, correct? More methane.

Of course I don't know them all. But I know enough of the people who installed it to know that they don't like it and that they do as they're told. There is not a single AM radio station anywhere that has put HD on the air that isn't struggling with its analog sound right now.

Yet more methane, boy, light a match near you and your toupee will blow-off.

I don't know where in hell's-half-acre you reside, here in market #1 the AM's have this iboc thing figured out.

I've posted recent analog airchecks of iboc running stations: WFAN,WOR, WABC, WNYC-am, and WCBS-am. All have their sound atleast 95% of what the pre iboc quality was.

Might I suggest that some of the enigineers in your neck-of-the-woods give a call to the CE's of the aforementioned stations.

I'am sure they'll be delighted to help.

I'm a blithering idiot (a plain old idiot won't do at all)!

How cute. Dead-on.

Lino

5KHz of audio isn't what I'd call having it "figured out" or 95 percent. Quite frankly it sucks. I'm sure the great back-east major market we-know-more-than-you-because-we're-from-NYC-engineering minds have done the best they can at optimizing poor audio quality, but only so much can be forced though something that's restricted. Supprisingly even the great minds of NYC engineering can't change the laws of physics. (we all feel so inferior out here in the "sticks" because we just can't figure it out with our 3rd grade one-room school edjumacation Shower us with your enlightenment oh great major market radio.. puke. ) AM IBOC is a poor trade of fidelity for future "benifits". 20 years from now it might be an acceptable practice. Right now it's only for practice, and there's no way in HELL it'll ever be perfect...

I'd say it's time to think about plan B for AM IBOC. Plan A was an abortion and afterthought from it's very beginnings. Why settle for something that's crap guys?

 

[LinoNYC]

5KHz of audio isn't what I'd call having it "figured out" or 95 percent. Quite frankly it sucks. I'm sure the great back-east major market engineering minds have done the best they can at optimizing poor audio quality, but only so much can be forced though something that's restricted.

This 2006 cut from WABC during iboc operation gives lie to claim the analog AM must be severely degraded.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9h9cq7 8mb

When iboc was first introduced it did ruin the audio of those early adopters, not anymore.

This was recorded from a 1973 KLH tuner which is clearly wider than most AM sets in use today.

One of the keys to better analog performance seems to be the use of a conventional processor in place of the on-board one in the iboc exciter.

Lino

 

[hipporadio]

...I'm a blithering idiot (a plain old idiot won't do at all)! Thank you for the accolades.

Could I please, PLEASE, P-L-E-A-S-E join your “Blithering-Idiot Society”? I promise to pay my dues on time; hold my Pledge-hazing to a minimum; and never, NEVER, N-E-V-E-R give-out the secret password! IF “honored” with membership, I might then visit personal character-assassination upon those whom I have never-met; constantly-recycle resume-comparison and professional minimization; and sup-up the corporate radio culture with puppy-dog loyalty [I can feel the breeze of all those tails wagging even over many-miles of cyber-space!]. Most important, will be my 12-step addiction-admission to the evil artifacts of “analog AM”... BUT—do I HAVE to give-up the small pleasure of my Tivoli Model ONE table radio [God-forbid, it IS analog-tuned and demodulated ‘ya know]... Instead I could make the “peace offering” of my passé Carver TX-11b wideband C-QUAM AM-stereo home component tuner; comply with the analogy of its alleged “co-inventor” here—and put it up for auction on eBay. HOLD ON! ...There’s something amiss... I’ve just described an allegiance to “the other side”... May I lower my right hand, please?

Yet more methane, boy, light a match near you and your toupee will blow-off.
Lino

My-O-myyy... ‘Just look at ALL the “privileges of membership” I’m giving up!

What a shame that Bob Savage cannot humorously-detail the “pro-AM IBOC” physique and current corporate radio mentality without suffering through post-removal... I’m glad I hit “print” on his limerick before it vanished within an hour. I showed it to a Marketing industry leader—[OH, I just made myself a Hippo-sized target with that one!]... He operates our Firm; and upon reading Mr. Savage’s brilliant demonstration of upper-class English comp and creative writing—he [physically] STOOD-UP and CLAPPED.

Now... ‘Should I click “Tattle-to-the-Mod” and report this invocation of bodily-function and male-pattern baldness SO-enjoyed by [some—NOT ALL] “HD enthusiasts”? HECK NO! ...I like it when they “point a finger” and fail to realize that FOUR are pointing back

 

[Tom Wells]

5KHz of audio isn't what I'd call having it "figured out" or 95 percent. Quite frankly it sucks. I'm sure the great back-east major market engineering minds have done the best they can at optimizing poor audio quality, but only so much can be forced though something that's restricted.

This 2006 cut from WABC during iboc operation gives lie to claim the analog AM must be severely degraded.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/9h9cq7 8mb

When iboc was first introduced it did ruin the audio of those early adopters, not anymore.

This was recorded from a 1973 KLH tuner which is clearly wider than most AM sets in use today.

One of the keys to better analog performance seems to be the use of a conventional processor in place of the on-board one in the iboc exciter.

Lino

OK, I just dropped this onto my automation system, and I have other mint Batman audio to compare with, so I'll be back later to report.

Every time I see Lino, I HAVE to think linotype or linoleum, and I know that's not what you want associated to lino, whazzat mean?


I suspect that like in chicago, they've got sibilance back, or a far more useful version of sibilance than er, previously to the upgrade "that didn't happen".