WLNG

[JimA]

The music is great - love it. But the PAMS or whatever jingles are bassy and sound spliced on an Ampex 601. The jingles are so very over produced and played back to back. Guess that's the WLNG legend

 

[educ-engineer]

You have the Pams right ! as a former employee I know that for a fact

 

[nd2023]

It's truly a one-of-a-kind station. The reverb, the jingles, the one-spot stopsets, and especially the music are unmatched! No wonder they're the #1 rated station on Eastern Long Island. And its signal is great. It can be heard from the Nassau-Suffolk border to Montauk, as well as up to Hartford. When the tropo hits, it booms into New Jersey and Rhode Island.

 

[tony marzocco]

1. Not all the jingles are PAMS. Some are the re-sings from Ken Friedman (retired) or cool edits 2. Although #1 in Hamptons/Riverhead, as the good Dr. Sniffen would say, the ratings that matter is that WLNG bills #1 3. If you love oldies or hate them, LNG reflects a world prior to the Big Brother "evil" of consultants & selector songs

 

[davideduardo]

1. Not all the jingles are PAMS. Some are the re-sings from Ken Friedman (retired) or cool edits 2. Although #1 in Hamptons/Riverhead, as the good Dr. Sniffen would say, the ratings that matter is that WLNG bills #1 3. If you love oldies or hate them, LNG reflects a world prior to the Big Brother "evil" of consultants & selector songs

WLNG does no such thing. WLNG simply reflects the reality of smaller markets. The market is #262, the same size as the Kalispell, MT, market. It is so small that the stations there could not afford continuous measurement, and went to a two-book market with Arbitron this summer. The 12+ population is under 120,000 in the whole market.

WLNG is a classic mom and pop station, where the owner is listed as manager, sales manager, promotions director and traffic manager. It bills just a little over $1 million a year, which is what a NYC station does in a decent week. The profit is basically a guaranteed salary for the owner.

There is nothing wrong with the format or approach that the owner takes... it's a perfect match of station with a small market. But to conclude that it is an example of how consultants and Selector are evil is absurd.

First, there were more consultants before consolidation, and every industry has them because they for the most part produce better results for business owners. And Selector is just the old song cardfile on a computer. Nothing wrong with either. If you ever had an expert fill your tax return or you have written a letter in Word, you are negating your argument on consultants and music scheduling.

Keep in mind that comparisons, as you have made, on billings (the whole market, with 14 stations and not even $7 million in total billing) are rather irrelevant... when any number of morning DJs in, let's say, LA, make more than what that whole station in Sag Harbor bills in total. Consultants don't generally do such tiny markets and Selector is considered a labor saving and cost saving tool. Lumping the two together as "The sign of the Beast" strains credulity because you are using such a small market as an example and because you lump consultants together with software to make a point.

 

[tony marzocco]

Dave...I know Gary Berkowitz, Jay Mitchell, Jim Ryan...all excellent consultants. But it's the old story of "art" versus "sales".....you just seem to be on the "accountant" side of the ledger, and I am on "art" (creative) side. Too much overthink (as Larry Berger says) in radio today. Lighten up...you're taking the "fun" aspect out of radio. No wonder nobody wants to work for $8.00 an hour to play Celine Dion songs.

 

[davideduardo]

Dave...I know Gary Berkowitz, Jay Mitchell, Jim Ryan...all excellent consultants. But it's the old story of "art" versus "sales".....you just seem to be on the "accountant" side of the ledger, and I am on "art" (creative) side. Too much overthink (as Larry Berger says) in radio today. Lighten up...you're taking the "fun" aspect out of radio. No wonder nobody wants to work for $8.00 an hour to play Celine Dion songs.

You are missing the point entirely. WLNG is in the size of market where there is a sense of community (leaving the weekend millionaires out) which is a "state of mind" that does not exist in larger markets. Just look at the audience size... WLNG's 8 share represents, at peak, maybe 1,500 persons listening at the same time. That is a small, intimate group compared to the AQH audiences of over 100,000 of the NYC stations.

Like most small market stations, what an owner gets is not riches but guaranteed employment in a community they may enjoy living and working and being respected in. Oh, and you get a new car more often because you trade it, and the restaurant trades are nice, too.

It's just a different world. And not comparable with major market radio in many ways. Otherwise, you are saying that a Hyundai and a Lamboghini are both cars without seeing the vast differences.

I still can not see the evil of "Selector" (or Music Master or Power Gold). All those programs do is help a PD create a music log that takes into account the things that are important which don't have to be "mechanical rotations" and in fact can be things like "don't play the same artist this hour that I did yesterday at this time" and other things that enhance variety and appeal for some formats. The use of one of the programs reduces immesurably the time taken to do music logging for performance collection societies, and also keeps a record for legal purposes as well.

I don't see the "accountant" side of consulting. I see the Rockies vs. Red Sox side.. it's a lot more fun, and profitable, to win. And the competiton makes everyone try harder. On the sales side, what I found when I owned my first station was that it was immensely easier to sell if you were nunber one, so I became a very product oriented person always. Some formats, like Beautiful Music, did not necessarily require personality or live talent, but did require absolute perfection in mechanics and flow... so there is a skill in doing non-talent driven stations, too. On the other side, I kept an FM station in a top 15 market #1 for 20 years (a top 50 market record) by having morning-show calibre talent in every daypart; some said we had morning shows 24/7 in fact, as the talk and entertainment was never sacrificed to be able to say we played 20 songs in a row.

Each situation is different. Where there is a talent vacuum in a certain format area, reemphasizing talaent and entertainment is a marvelous option. In other cases, like the successful Jack stations in some markets, lack of talent capitalizes on the rejection of jocks and vacuous talk where stations have been too loose and talky. In many cases, it is the consultant who helps determine the kind of research needed to find out what listeners are feeling, and helps guide the local station into a void that needs filling. And that is generally a good thing.

 

[tony marzocco]

Dave...could you talk a little bit MORE about yourself, please ? You have taken an essentially fun, positive thread about the unique, oldtime mom & pop good-time feel of LNG and turned it into quantum physics. Thank the Lord I left radio when I was a kid! No more posts from me, dude. BTW..."evil" was in QUOTES...that means "not literally", English majors.

 

[davideduardo]

Dave...could you talk a little bit MORE about yourself, please ?

I gave two anecdotal examples based on personal experience, not on something someone told me. Real experiences, vs. related ones.

You have taken an essentially fun, positive thread about the unique, oldtime mom & pop good-time feel of LNG and turned it into quantum physics.

WLNG does not have an oldtime appeal. It is simply a small market station near enough to a big market to be noticed. There are equally good stations like it in Prescott or Ishpeming or Caribou, but they go unoticed. There is a reason such stations exist, and it has to do with the intimacy of smaller towns. But you missed that point, too.

Thank the Lord I left radio when I was a kid! No more posts from me, dude. BTW..."evil" was in QUOTES...that means "not literally", English majors.

I am starting to be thankful, too, for your wise decision. Putting a word in quotes indicates that the term may be either "lifted" from a prior or referneced statement or used in an unstandard way. One of those ways may be "not literally" although denoting sarcasm or some other emotion is as common; making fun of another person's mis-usage is about the most common use of quotes in this type of setting.

 

[tony marzocco]

Ok, Dave you win...you must've gone to a better college than I did.

 

[unclenutzy]

No, Dave is wrong about 'LNG's old time appeal. I grew up in western Suffolk and what drew me to LNG was it's approximation to the sounds of the stations I grew up with. (WABC, WMCA) I also have an old friend who was programmer in NY who used to bring other programmers and national record promo reps out to listen to 'LNG in the early 80's. They ALL were taken with 'LNG's on-air product, and it's "unique" sound. If this station was being replicated back then, you'd think these guy's would've known it.

 

[herethere]

There is no doubt that consultants play an important role in all business, and the gathering of research is a vital task.

However, radio wears two faces, and consulting only serves one, which is the financial. Having focus on music and keeping an ear on talent isn't a crime, but that is not always the case. Instead of listening to what jocks do and then judging, jocks are instead given strict rules that mutes virtually anything outside of the calls and the sells. The talent, especially young talent is often too intimidated to experiment (and maybe lose their job); how does this allow for personality to grow? How does someone form the confidence to even close in on "talky"?

Sure, financially speaking, it's great to not have jocks who become important to listeners. Owners and corporations can save on paying that salary, and skip out on ever having to negotiate with someone who knows they have value. It's true that being local in New York City versus being local in Sag Harbor isn't as important, but look at LNG and how serving the community pays off. Clients on the air, local events like the police buffer, church and wake happenings, even a lost dog plea now and then! You can't do that in the five boroughs, but you can still offer some sort of personal connection beyond putting out the calls, mentioning the upcoming song's artist was in the news, then saying the artist's name and repeating the calls...in under 15 seconds? The removal of personality has less to do with the station's flow and more with keeping talent from being critical to the listening experience and thereby the station's success.

The fact is, and this is a fact, radio consultants generally offer the same advice to different formats, time and time again. Less talk. More music. Jocks should keep it short. Category A songs should play constantly. Know your role. Keep it demo. Keep it simple. If this strategy is so vital to success, how and why do numerous stations with consultants manage to flounder and fail? Explain this all-too-common experience:

A station does so poorly it flips format. The PD, the jocks, even the GM gets fired. Yet, it keeps the same consultants? If it's the consultants that are most important in guiding music to the MD, and informing the PD on what's happening with the talent, where's the accountability then?

It's true that there are success stories at some JACKs and other tiny-playlist stations, but let's talk big picture. As we roll through the 21st Century, as other mediums encroach into the car, the home and on your hip, radio needs to provide something the others don't. Original personality is an easily obtainable facet, one that is more often than not cost-effective. Giving a New Yorker a voice that they identify with, beyond nationality,race or gender isn't impossible, in fact it used to be commonplace. What's the bottom line, revenue? Did Howard Stern or does Wendy Williams cost stations revenue? Did Cousin Brucie or Scott Muni hurt their bosses' pockets when they interjected some extra personality into their breaks? Remove local and relatable talent, eventually you end up with an iPod. Most people program their own iPods, so there's no waiting for a song, hoping for a song or sitting through spots. How do you keep those people tuned to radio? Give them something they can't program themselves. They can download all the hits they want, but unique personality is special.

I realize arguing consulting with a consultant is like arguing religion or politics, so please don't consider this a jab. But when you see less and less students interested in radio, when interns have no interest in staying on to try a job in radio, when jocks would rather find a 9-5 elsewhere, you're seeing a waning interest in the field. If students and young people aren't interested in getting involved, it's a fair bet that many people en masse aren't interested either.

 

[surfdude]

Great post HERETHERE!

 

[tony marzocco]

Gentlemen: thank you for clarifying my original point. BTW, if one google's Dave's full name with "radio", nothing comes up...what's with that ? Also...notice the number of mentions of the words " I-me-mine-myself" et al that come up in Dave "the consultant's" spiels. Things that make you go " hmmmmmm". And THAT is my (for real) final comment. Enjoy WLNG those of you who would. They are nice people there..the reason for my original post.

 

[davideduardo]

Gentlemen: thank you for clarifying my original point. BTW, if one google's Dave's full name with "radio", nothing comes up...what's with that ?

"David" and "Eduardo" are my given names. You are doing the equivalent of Googleing "Billy Bob" with no last name; mine has been on my profile here for half a decade.

Also...notice the number of mentions of the words " I-me-mine-myself" et al that come up in Dave "the consultant's" spiels.

Gee, and I thought that personal and real experience was more relative than "hearsay" and press release stories. Guess I was wrong...

Things that make you go " hmmmmmm". And THAT is my (for real) final comment. Enjoy WLNG those of you who would. They are nice people there..the reason for my original post.

I know Paul Sidney from the times in the 70's when WLNG was a daytimer on 1600 and went about 6 miles in any direction... and both of us were members of the International Broadcasters Idea Bank, a group of innovative and successful radio broadcasters from Australia to... Sag Harbor!

WLNG is a good community station, but converting it to icon status ignores the thousands of good community stations all across the USA. The only difference is that the rest of those stations don't serve a community with a collection of $10 million to $100 million homes of the NY rich.

 

[davideduardo]

There is no doubt that consultants play an important role in all business, and the gathering of research is a vital task.

Program consultants don't generally do research... they help in the specification of the right kind of research for the given situation and the interpretation of the final results to get the best audience results.

However, radio wears two faces, and consulting only serves one, which is the financial.

That is almost 100% wrong; program consultants work to garner more audience for a station by being more attractive, entertaining and appealing to listeners. The more listeners like the station, of course, the more profitable it might be... but first the station has to be good.

Having focus on music and keeping an ear on talent isn't a crime, but that is not always the case.

I am sure there are some bad consultants, just as there are bad doctors and lawyers and bakers. I'ts never been my ill fortune to meet one.

Instead of listening to what jocks do and then judging, jocks are instead given strict rules that mutes virtually anything outside of the calls and the sells.

In some cases, that is true. A good example is the success of Jack in LA... no jocks at all, but meticulous execution of the format and ever changing liners with an attitude. Why? Because there are enough listeners in LA who absolutely hate jocks to make Jack the #1 non-Spanish station in the top billing market in the country.

My point is that one of the things good consultants do is identify the right solution for each situation... often drawing on experiences local PDs have never confronted. The best consultants are those that not only bring vast experience to the table, but also teach others.

The talent, especially young talent is often too intimidated to experiment (and maybe lose their job); how does this allow for personality to grow? How does someone form the confidence to even close in on "talky"?

Most of the consultants I know adore real talent, and most are pretty good at recognizing and nurturing it. Far from inhibiting, they encourage.

Sure, financially speaking, it's great to not have jocks who become important to listeners. Owners and corporations can save on paying that salary, and skip out on ever having to negotiate with someone who knows they have value.

Pardon me, but if a station can afford talent... it far prefers to have it. But, just as there are no local shows beating Jay Leno or Oprah, there is very little talent and a lot of people with mouths bigger than their abilities who are not talented but talk too much. Not all formats require or benefit from talent... some benefit more from style than content, others do not perform best with talent. But look at where radio is growing in revenue.... Hispanic and Black stations... and you will find nearly every station is talent based, in every daypart.

It's true that being local in New York City versus being local in Sag Harbor isn't as important, but look at LNG and how serving the community pays off. Clients on the air, local events like the police buffer, church and wake happenings, even a lost dog plea now and then! You can't do that in the five boroughs, but you can still offer some sort of personal connection beyond putting out the calls, mentioning the upcoming song's artist was in the news, then saying the artist's name and repeating the calls...in under 15 seconds? The removal of personality has less to do with the station's flow and more with keeping talent from being critical to the listening experience and thereby the station's success.

Just because AC stations have found that ratings plummet if daytime announcers talk too much, and, thus put a muzzle on it, does not mean that in other formats in large and small markets there is not talent and entertaining radio. Granted, in some instances cost savings sacrifices a whole staiton, but when such staitons fail, they change hands or GMs or PDs and find their way back. For every WLNG, too, there are a hundred stations on the satellite all day because there are, after 80-90, way too many stations in most smaller markets for the available revenue... if anyone is to blame, it is the FCC.

The fact is, and this is a fact, radio consultants generally offer the same advice to different formats, time and time again.

That is not a fact. Most consultants find a dfferent solution for each station and each market. Those that apply formulas are basically ex-PDs without a gig who only know how to do one thing.

A station does so poorly it flips format. The PD, the jocks, even the GM gets fired. Yet, it keeps the same consultants? If it's the consultants that are most important in guiding music to the MD, and informing the PD on what's happening with the talent, where's the accountability then?

Consultants do not guide music to the PD, whatevetr that means. Stations do music tests and the listeners guide the station as to what to play. But some formats have finite life spans, and there comes a time for change... either because music has changed, a format (like oldies or smooth jazz) has matured out of the desirable demos... and the consultant may guide the station in a new direction via research and experience. On occasion, a station has a lesser signal and is outdone by a better one... there is no choice but to change format. Or a given format does not have enough available shares for two to survive, and management decides to pull the plug before the losses are too great.

It's true that there are success stories at some JACKs and other tiny-playlist stations, but let's talk big picture.

First, Jacks have huge playlists. And youth stations have small ones; many hip hop and CHRs have only a bit over 100 songs in rotation because that is what the target listener wants. Remember, in the 50's and most of the 60's Top 40, the format that gave radio its second life, played 40 songs.... sometimes less. And that was the era where playing the right 40 songs got shares in the 20's and 30's in some markets.

As we roll through the 21st Century, as other mediums(sic) encroach into the car, the home and on your hip, radio needs to provide something the others don't. Original personality is an easily obtainable facet, one that is more often than not cost-effective.

Where are 14,000 stations going to find all that supposed talent? I am in LA, and when the rare opening occurs, it is excruciatingly difficicult to find talent we are willing to bet and risk our stations on. If we can't find it, how is the station in Flagstaff or Meridian or Belle Glade supposed to?

The average radio station in the US bills less than a Burger King sells in a year. There is not spare money, and there are twice as many stations as there were 30 years ago.

 

[Ted Russell]

WLNG is a good community station, but converting it to icon status ignores the thousands of good community stations all across the USA. The only difference is that the rest of those stations don't serve a community with a collection of $10 million to $100 million homes of the NY rich.

I am confused? What does the presence of multi million dollar homes have to do with anything. Before the Hamptons became the romping ground for the rich and famous, it was a rural area where real people lived and worked. Most of those families are still there today. I really don't think that WLNG's target audience is the rich people. Most of the stuff on the station is for local businesses, and community events like spaghetti dinners that rich people wouldn't go to. Sure there are exclusive and expensive areas on the East End, but there is still a lot of the old families there as well. The Real people who live there for the whole year in houses that would be valuated from a quarter to a half million. These are the people that WLNG caters to. These are the clients of WLNG. The highbrow ritzy or bling bling expensive stuff is covered by other stations out east. I think WLNG is successful because it serves the real people who make a modest living. These are the majority of the residents of the Twin Forks. Sure there is a lot of money out east. But it is such a small percentage of the population. And then there are the tourists...

 

[davideduardo]

I am confused? What does the presence of multi million dollar homes have to do with anything.

A lot. It makes a really very tiny market very, very visable. Unlike a market identical in size, Kalispell, which nearly nobody could find on a map.

Before the Hamptons became the romping ground for the rich and famous, it was a rural area where real people lived and worked.

Yeah, before radio was invented... I exaggerate only slightly.

I really don't think that WLNG's target audience is the rich people. Most of the stuff on the station is for local businesses, and community events like spaghetti dinners that rich people wouldn't go to.

Weekenders and the occasional rich don't get diaries in that market, anyway.

Sure there are exclusive and expensive areas on the East End, but there is still a lot of the old families there as well. The Real people who live there for the whole year in houses that would be valuated from a quarter to a half million. These are the people that WLNG caters to. These are the clients of WLNG.

And the economy is based on a service model... guess who they give services too.

Of course, you missed my point entirely... the market is highly visable due to the rich and the glitteratti who spend time there. Were WLNG in Vottonwood, AZ, nobody would have noticed it, ever. Caveat... I am not saying it is a bad station.... far from it. But it is by no means unique.

 

[herethere]

Like I said, arguing with a consultant is like arguing religion, as there is no end.

Let me preface here by saying that I posted my earlier comments for those who may not have any inside experience. It's a safe bet that PD's, MD's and jocks will not be flocking to back up Mr. Eduardo's comments.

This board allows one to post in anonymity, which lets me post inside behavior without upsetting my employers. However, I will admit to 20+ years working (and thankfully still working as of today) in a now-struggling field that I really enjoy. My comments aren't opinions; they are culled from countless meetings with consultants. My words aren't simply fed by my disappointment in the state of radio, but are factual statements lifted directly from experience.

I have worked in Market #18 and in Market #1. Telling me what goes on in music meetings, staff meetings, jock meetings, morning show meetings, morning show boot camps, programming meetings, promotional meetings, production meetings, and meetings with consultants, in person, over the phone, through IM and through email is fruitless. Declaring that talent is encouraged or that music isn't influenced, or that research isn't done by consultants is not the road to go. What I'm saying goes on every day. These aren't arguable points, but in fact - yes, fact - daily occurrence. To say otherwise is insulting.

And not to harp on the crushing of talent, but saying that there isn't enough talent out there is ludicrous. I have the sad responsibility of often throwing out demos of jocks who are too experienced or too talented to offer low-paying jobs to. Regardless of what Burger King makes, I know that most owners, from corporations to on-the-job owners can afford to pay a jock $30,000...which they often don't. When I see my 28-year-old production director forced to do weekend shifts just to keep from being replaced by a CBS grad who will take minimum wage to do the same thing, minus any experience and minus polish, I question a consultant who tells that same production director how vital he is, then informs the PD that they should consider making a switch for a "younger-sounding talent". This, by the way, is only one example, not the only example.

Everything I have said is a fact, in New York City, on Long Island, on the East End and everywhere else. I don't fault consultants who throw the same advice to a country station in Oklahoma that they give to a pop station in New Jersey, because there are owners who will pay them hundreds for that privilege. Nor do I fault PD's who take consulting advice in order to protect their livelihoods, because for some being a PD is the only way to make a living and stay in radio. I fault lazy ownership that allows this entire system to be the case.

 

[wgliradio]

I know Paul Sidney from the times in the 70's when WLNG was a daytimer on 1600 and went about 6 miles in any direction...

WLNG FM signed in 1969. The AM was one of the best on Long Island, in that cove, with 500 watts... could be heard as far west as Islip (approx 50 air miles) and on Cape Cod as clear as a bell during the day, which is one of the reasons why WWRL needed it to go away.