WLS 25-54, 35-64

[Prais]

Daavid said;
There have been Black artists on non-Black specificly targeted radio stations going back to Ella Fitzgerald...

That makes WGN a "black" station. When I was a kid inn the 50's and 60's I remember that they often played Ella. It was there that the dj (referring to her girth) introduced her as "Elephants Gerald."

 

[BRNout]

Look at the facts... WLS FM has been on a downtrend in 25-54 in both April and May. Based on the information available, it looks like June will not be unlike May, and with other moves in the market, could place the station aound 12th to 13th.

Yeah, ever since baseball started. You know David, in my previous post, I already discussed this. However, as it doesn't support your point of view, you conveniently ignored it. When baseball season started, some of the male audience ended up on WGN and WSCR. WGN's ratings, in particular, have bloomed since Cubs season began. Where did those listeners come from? Many from WLS-FM. Women have stayed pretty steady with WLS-FM.

They trended up like crazy from last October into March, where they peaked. What you're looking at is hardly a long term demographic trend. The agencies don't seem to think so, as Citadel sells spots to top-notch advertisers. Friday night's Biondi show (which would tend to have higher demos than most dayparts) was sponsored by American Express and filled with spots from the likes of Macy's, Home Depot and Ford - not colon busters. Clearly, SOMEONE feels that the audience has money to spend. And, as Citadel's only other station in this market is WLS-AM (a station that truly has demo issues), these ads were not bought in conjunction the rest of the cluster - because there is only aforementioned WLS-AM. And WLS-AM does air tons of colon buster and bogus financial service ads.

One last point that I failed to mention in my last post: more than 50% of WLS-FM's schedule is voicetracked via Shannon's True Oldies Channel. It's 50% M-F and more like 75% on weekends. Considering that, the format is cheap to run. My sources tell me that the 94.7 frequency has never been more profitable.

 

[TheBigA]

And, as Citadel's only other station in this market is WLS-AM

This is a subject that is often overlooked. ABC Radio was the only major company that didn't buy a lot of stations in the same market when the opportunity came. They typically owned two stations per major market, much as they did before 1996. So they don't operate clusters. Citadel, like all the other post-deregulation companies, operates clusters. It's much more efficient to operate that way, it's easier to sell, and it allows more programming diversity. Other companies in Chicago are able to take advantage of that. Citadel does not. I think this contributed to Citadel's troubles when they added the ABC stations to their portfolio.

 

[davideduardo]

[Yeah, ever since baseball started. You know David, in my previous post, I already discussed this. However, as it doesn't support your point of view, you conveniently ignored it. When baseball season started, some of the male audience ended up on WGN and WSCR. WGN's ratings, in particular, have bloomed since Cubs season began. Where did those listeners come from? Many from WLS-FM. Women have stayed pretty steady with WLS-FM.

I'd address that were it relevent.

The WLS 25-54 losses are mostly in mornings and middays, M-F. That does not seem to correlate with live baseball games.

And with WTMX and WDRV both up in those dayparts, I think the correlation lies there. Even lower ranked stations like WLIT are at or above the Feb-Mar levels. I find it hard to believe that only WLS-FM has loyal baseball fans in the audience. An interesting fact is that WUSN is up in mornings and middays, and, while it is more pronounced in the South, there has generally been a good deal of sharing between oldies and country... and in the first full year of PPM WGN and WUSN have shared about the same with WLS FM, although the biggest shareres by far are WDRV, WJMK, WILV, WLIT, WTMX and WLUP... in season and out.

Where did those listeners come from?

I don't think the listeners came from anywhere...there mostly seems to be a slight reallocation of TSL, with WLS-FM getting lighter TSL

 

[TheBigA]

An interesting fact is that WUSN is up in mornings and middays, and, while it is more pronounced in the South, there has generally been a good deal of sharing between oldies and country.

Several articles have been written on that. Some describe today's country as very similar to 70s rock and pop. It's a chance for people who might have grown up with classic hits to listen to current music that sounds somewhat familiar. Little Big Town and Lady Antebellum sound similar to Fleetwood Mac. It also doesn't hurt that several classic hits artists have crossed over to country, such as Bon Jovi, Van Zant (from Lynyrd Skynyrd), and Darius Rucker of Hootie & The Blowfish. The demos are fairly similar, although country doesn't range as high as oldies, and its median age is now about 40.

 

[radiorob2.0]

Here is a thought....

Flip the formats, oldi....sorry...classic hits on 890 and talk on 94.7. Do it now before CBS puts news and sports on FM.

 

[avtosalon]

This is a subject that is often overlooked. ABC Radio was the only major company that didn't buy a lot of stations in the same market when the opportunity came

In the late 90's/early 2000's Disney Corp.(ABC) owned 5 radio stations and 1 television station in the Chicago market:

FM 94.7 various call letters
AM 890 WLS
AM 1000 WMVP
AM 1300 WRDZ
AM 1500 WDDZ
Channel 7 WLS-TV

 

[TheBigA]

In the late 90's/early 2000's Disney Corp.(ABC) owned 5 radio stations and 1 television station in the Chicago market:

FM 94.7 various call letters
AM 890 WLS
AM 1000 WMVP
AM 1300 WRDZ
AM 1500 WDDZ
Channel 7 WLS-TV

Yep, and Disney still owns MVP, RDZ, and LS-TV. In fact, most of the stations Disney bought under de-regulation are still owned and run as either ESPN Radio and Radio Disney. But the heritage stations, like WLS-AM & FM, which is inherited when it bought ABC, were the ones it sold off. So Citadel in stuck running two stations in a market where most of its competitors owns five. It has one AM & one FM, while most of its competitors have mainly FMs. The good news is its one AM gets good numbers. The bad news is it's making crappy money.

 

[davideduardo]

They trended up like crazy from last October into March, where they peaked. What you're looking at is hardly a long term demographic trend.

It's interesting that none of those who insisted that WLS-FM was on a sustained uptrend in 25-54 have not said anything now that the station is not in the top 10... or top 12... or...

 

[radiotower40]

Check Mate David ;D

I am cooking up the crow now, I will consume it shortly

 

[VeteranPD]

The CBS oldies group has shifted it's focus to "Greatest Hits" which today plays better than the concept of "Oldies." The problem with more traditional stations is that they skew to unsellable demos and even their listeners perceive themselves to be old..as indeed they are. Fact of life. The mantra for today's successful classic hits stations is there should be none of that "Hey remember back in the day" stuff. The songs are reporgrammable hits from the past. Any song that "sounds like an oldie" is avoided.
I am amazed that wcbs-fm performs as well as it does. Some of the jocks are downright awful and I've never liked their station voice, who should have been retired with their old oldies format. But, that's just IMHO.
As far as TOC goes...Too much Scott Shannon. He's a characature of himself. It's a shame that WLS-FM with great heritage doesn't really soud like the Legendary WLS and has to rely on a national product. Talk about doing it on the cheap.

 

[radioman148]

The CBS oldies group has shifted it's focus to "Greatest Hits" which today plays better than the concept of "Oldies." The problem with more traditional stations is that they skew to unsellable demos and even their listeners perceive themselves to be old..as indeed they are. Fact of life. The mantra for today's successful classic hits stations is there should be none of that "Hey remember back in the day" stuff. The songs are reporgrammable hits from the past. Any song that "sounds like an oldie" is avoided.
I am amazed that wcbs-fm performs as well as it does. Some of the jocks are downright awful and I've never liked their station voice, who should have been retired with their old oldies format. But, that's just IMHO.
As far as TOC goes...Too much Scott Shannon. He's a characature of himself. It's a shame that WLS-FM with great heritage doesn't really soud like the Legendary WLS and has to rely on a national product. Talk about doing it on the cheap.

Doing it on the cheap is the way it is in radio now. Just look at all the good talent that's out of work.

 

[BRNout]

They trended up like crazy from last October into March, where they peaked. What you're looking at is hardly a long term demographic trend.

It's interesting that none of those who insisted that WLS-FM was on a sustained uptrend in 25-54 have not said anything now that the station is not in the top 10... or top 12... or...

[some of us are busy......]

Yeah correct this time, but you're not always right now are you David?

WLS_FM had a nice February, well above its looooooooooooooooong PPM level, with no indication of any kind of trending. March will likely show it back into the 10th to 15th in sales demos.

BUZZER! Incorrect.

New PPMs are out for March. March 25-54: WLS-FM is 8th, M-F 6a-mid also 8th in cume (cume ranking was up slightly). The ranking was 7th with females 25-54; 12th with men 25-54.

Nothing in this month's PPM disproves my comment on how baseball (and the Blackhawks) drew a lot of WLS-FM listeners over to WGN. And, hardly a coincidence, WGN had a great month.

Summer isn't always an indicative period as far as long term trends go. You know that, which is why (in pre PPM days) the summer book was always considered less important than the others. I'll give you this: if they're still flagging in the September and October books, then we'll talk.

 

[davideduardo]

Nothing in this month's PPM disproves my comment on how baseball (and the Blackhawks) drew a lot of WLS-FM listeners over to WGN. And, hardly a coincidence, WGN had a great month.

Nothing proves that theory, either, as I pointed out in a previous post. If the stations that also have considerable historical sharing with WLS FM, or which have fairly comparable demographics, have either stayed the same or gone up (WDRV, for example). That would pretty conclusively isolate the issues to WLS FM alone, and divorce them from any baseball listening.

I really do not think that the fans of baseball are also fans of oldies. And WGN had no better a 25-54 book in June than it had in the April one... so the baseball argument fails on that count, too.

Summer isn't always an indicative period as far as long term trends go. You know that, which is why (in pre PPM days) the summer book was always considered less important than the others. I'll give you this: if they're still flagging in the September and October books, then we'll talk.

That is a valid comment in the diary methodology... where we had 4 books, and one was called "Summer". Now we have 13, and instead of a new crew of diarykeepers 48 times a year, we have a panel with relatively small change week to week and month to month on which households can remain for up to 26 books. There may be minor usage changes by teens, for example (less morning drive, more middays) but the overall picture is fairly constant because the panel is essentially always the same.

I think, on the other hand, that the comments about WLS FM by VetaranPD are much closer to identifying the issues with the station.

 

[KevinFodor]

Here is a thought....

Flip the formats, oldi....sorry...classic hits on 890 and talk on 94.7. Do it now before CBS puts news and sports on FM.

No one under 50 listens much to AM...period. And Classic Hits, which can include staples like Aerosmith and Van Halen would sound very out of place there. The audience for Classic Hits is already on FM and would not make the transition.

 

[davideduardo]

No one under 50 listens much to AM...period. And Classic Hits, which can include staples like Aerosmith and Van Halen would sound very out of place there. The audience for Classic Hits is already on FM and would not make the transition.

I associate those artists with Classic Rock and not Classic Hits. Although "Why Can't this be Love" gets a couple of plays a month on WCBS FM and "Dream on" gets 6 or 7 a month, the normal Classic Hits station (WOGL, KOOL, KRTH, etc.) plays a couple of crossover tunes or none at all. They sure are not "staples" of the format, though.

In any case, whether classic hits or classic rock, most of the audience did not grow up on AM and trying to do any kind of music format save very niche ones on the band is not very hopeful.

 

[radioman148]

The CBS oldies group has shifted it's focus to "Greatest Hits" which today plays better than the concept of "Oldies." The problem with more traditional stations is that they skew to unsellable demos and even their listeners perceive themselves to be old..as indeed they are. Fact of life. The mantra for today's successful classic hits stations is there should be none of that "Hey remember back in the day" stuff. The songs are reporgrammable hits from the past. Any song that "sounds like an oldie" is avoided.
I am amazed that wcbs-fm performs as well as it does. Some of the jocks are downright awful and I've never liked their station voice, who should have been retired with their old oldies format. But, that's just IMHO.
As far as TOC goes...Too much Scott Shannon. He's a characature of himself. It's a shame that WLS-FM with great heritage doesn't really soud like the Legendary WLS and has to rely on a national product. Talk about doing it on the cheap.

It's sad that WLS-FM won't spend a few extra dollars to hire some talent to replace all the Scott Shannon non Chicago programming. Other than a few people like Biondi & Greg Brown, they hire people who will work at the minimum & have no Chicago connection. It's sad with guys like Fred Winston & Larry Lujack out there who want to still be on, WLS-FM hires alot of no names & Shannon's canned programming. Lujack has said that he'd be willing to work for next to nothing just to get back on & I know Winston won't work for scale, but he wouldn't demand alot.
Tom O'Toole was filling in for Biondi this week. Nothing against Mr O'Toole, but c'mon--WLS-FM can do better than that.

 

[Stormychuck]

Radioman148 your so right, CBS is on this "greatest hits kick" thing and I guess it's pretty much nation wide, especially here in Orlando on their Sunny 1059FM. Same thing day in and day out
and we really do need some Larry Lujacks and Fred Winston types and just turn em loose, stop all the silly drop ins, by stopping the music to tell me your playing more music. Its so corporate.

Scott Shannon, geez your soooooo right about him too, and all of these young corporate programming puppet's can only do what their told by the upstairs biggies, numbers and saving money is the name of the game the only things that are important, and listeners, what are they?

 

[BRNout]

Nothing proves that theory, either, as I pointed out in a previous post. If the stations that also have considerable historical sharing with WLS FM, or which have fairly comparable demographics, have either stayed the same or gone up (WDRV, for example). That would pretty conclusively isolate the issues to WLS FM alone, and divorce them from any baseball listening.

I really do not think that the fans of baseball are also fans of oldies. And WGN had no better a 25-54 book in June than it had in the April one... so the baseball argument fails on that count, too.

Well David, July PPMs are out and WLS-FM is back up to 7th (tied with WLIT) in the 25-54 demo and 14th in the 18-34. Focusing on 25-54, WLS-FM's biggest improvement was during PM drive and later. This just so happens to coincide with WGN's loss of listenership to Cubs games (given the horrible on-field performance of the Cubbies). WGN, in fact, is down to 15th overall in the 25-54 demo - though they are quite a bit stronger M-F mornings. WDRV, on the other hand, has remained steady.

A couple of observations here. For one thing, when listeners disappear, they go somewhere. In the case of May-June for WLS-FM, I have maintained that they've been going to WGN for Blackhawks and baseball. The latest PPMs do seem to bear that out. So we are not in agreement about that point.

Secondly, I am not sure how often you get to sample WDRV, but despite their positioning as 'classic hits' - they are really more of a sophisticated classic rocker. An excellent station, but it's questionable how much of a competitor they are to WLS-FM. Somewhat, to be sure, but the two formats are quite different. WDRV is heavily rock based while WLS-FM is purely pop-based gold (be it from the R&B side/Motown or rock singles).

This certainly isn't like Boston where classic hits WROR competes directly with WODS, only with a rock leaning CH format. If anything, WDRV competes more with WJMK and - to a lesser extent - WXRT. Again, Bonneville runs a fine operation at The Drive and the ratings show it. But those ratings aren't really at the expense of WLS-FM.

Despite this book, I still maintain that we need to get into Autumn before we make any judgments about who's doing well and who's not. But, I wouldn't dig WLS-FM's grave just yet. Citadel is still having a lot more success with 94.7 than they have had on that frequency in (literally) decades. Plenty of big-signaled FM's in Chicago do a whole lot worse.

 

[davideduardo]

If the stations that also have considerable historical sharing with WLS FM, or which have fairly comparable demographics, have either stayed the same or gone up (WDRV, for example). That would pretty conclusively isolate the issues to WLS FM alone, and divorce them from any baseball listening.

I really do not think that the fans of baseball are also fans of oldies. And WGN had no better a 25-54 book in June than it had in the April one... so the baseball argument fails on that count, too.

Again: you can not say that when other stations in adult demos went up or stayed flat that all the WGN baseball listening came from WLS-FM. It is not a prerequisite for being a baseball fan to also like oldies.

Well David, July PPMs are out and WLS-FM is back up to 7th (tied with WLIT) in the 25-54 demo and 14th in the 18-34. Focusing on 25-54, WLS-FM's biggest improvement was during PM drive and later. This just so happens to coincide with WGN's loss of listenership to Cubs games (given the horrible on-field performance of the Cubbies). WGN, in fact, is down to 15th overall in the 25-54 demo - though they are quite a bit stronger M-F mornings. WDRV, on the other hand, has remained steady.

Again, your insistence that there is a correlation with WLS FM regarding the Cubs that does not exist with all stations sharing parts of the same demo is naïve.

A couple of observations here. For one thing, when listeners disappear, they go somewhere.

Not necessarily. In many cases of sporting events that can be isolated in PPM the Persons Using Radio (PUR) increases. That is, the total usage of radio increases. This is what, in a different world, we saw with the World CUp, where, f example, in LA several share points were added for the entire week each week of the cup... even though there were at most two games a day... meaning that total radio usage was up 25% to 30% in the times the games were on for the entire LA market!

To say Cubs increased at the expense only of WLS FM is just not real.

In the case of May-June for WLS-FM, I have maintained that they've been going to WGN for Blackhawks and baseball. The latest PPMs do seem to bear that out. So we are not in agreement about that point.

Again, major sports will attract from all stations in the demos that would listen at all, not just one of them.

Secondly, I am not sure how often you get to sample WDRV, but despite their positioning as 'classic hits' - they are really more of a sophisticated classic rocker. An excellent station, but it's questionable how much of a competitor they are to WLS-FM. Somewhat, to be sure, but the two formats are quite different. WDRV is heavily rock based while WLS-FM is purely pop-based gold (be it from the R&B side/Motown or rock singles).

WDRV, WILV and WLIT are generally the largest cume sharers with 'LS FM.

It would be better to look at an era map on MediaBase where you just might see that the average age of the songs has gone down several years, the direction this station has to go to stay in the top 10 in sales demos.