WLS 25-54, 35-64

[radiotower40]

David, you previously stated that WLS FM was in a downward trend. These PPM results
disprove that theory.

They are now #7 25-54, that is excellent for an oldies station. They are 14th in 18-34, and
once again, they do not target 18-34.

I agree with BRNout, WLS and WDRV are two different animals. WDRV is more in
competition with stations like WJMK and WLUP, than WLS. WDRV, in the past few
months have added a lot more 80's rock, and also some songs from the 90's. They
have remained pretty consistent in terms of their numbers, which along with sister
station WTMX, have remained at the top of the list.

WLS moved up and WDRV remained relatively close to last month. This says to me that
they might be sharing some listeners, but not to a big extent.

I would say that WLS is performing fine, and are not going anywhere anytime soon.
They are even outperforming, in certain dayparts, what I would have expected.

You can see that last month, I was wrong, and promptly admitted so.

I want to say once again, this is nothing personal, you have great insight into radio issues,
I think your wrong here in terms of WLS. I was willing to admit I called it wrong last month,
will you do that this month?

 

[davideduardo]

David, you previously stated that WLS FM was in a downward trend. These PPM results
disprove that theory.

No, they confirm the theory, because all along I said that LS was playing too much 60's music, and it was "catching up" with them by costing them TSL. If you look at the data, you can see that the station has very obviously altered its mix as the core/median year (or average age... being the same thing) of the songs has moved up by about 3 years per a MediaBase era map.

Obviously, the folks at LS saw the trend, and adjusted. The result is exactly what I would anticipate... a younger median age for the station's listeners and an increase in 25-54, reversing the decided downtrend they had for several books. Remember, the station is an Arbitron subscriber and also gets 25-54 (and other) numbers every week. They saw the problem, and seem to have made a good effort in correcting it.

They are now #7 25-54, that is excellent for an oldies station.

Given the median year for the music, they are not an oldies station... they are a classic hits station, just like WCBS-FM, KRTH, WOGL, etc.

They are 14th in 18-34, and
once again, they do not target 18-34.

Remember, the PPM measures exposure, not listening. When a radio is heard by an 18-34 with a meter, even if they didn't tune it in or even realizing they are listening, the station the meter hears is given credit.

I work with the programming of a classic hits station in Houston (among other markets, including Chicago) and that station is also around 13th in the market in 18-34, even though it plays 60's and 70's songs. We are bright folks, and know that the 18-34 listening comes from that characteristic of the meter that registers exposure... the Chicago station(s) despite being limited Class A's also averages around 15th in 18-34 with the same 60's and 70's music.

I agree with BRNout, WLS and WDRV are two different animals. WDRV is more in competition with stations like WJMK and WLUP, than WLS.

WDRV has typically shared most with WJMK and then with WLS-FM.

WLS moved up and WDRV remained relatively close to last month. This says to me that they might be sharing some listeners, but not to a big extent.

Right. WLIT shares just a tiny bit more of WLS-FM's audience. WDRV is next.

I would say that WLS is performing fine, and are not going anywhere anytime soon.

Of course they are not changing. They realized they were aiming too old (as, in fact, did Shannon's syndicated format, too) and adjusted to have less geezer core.

You can see that last month, I was wrong, and promptly admitted so.

And the truth is that WLS FM had many down weeks (that we don't see online) and several down books... they reacted as I said they had to, and the sales demos increased. Amazing!

I was willing to admit I called it wrong last month,
will you do that this month?

You were wrong by saying there was no downtrend, which there was. You are wrong now in claiming that WDRV is not near the top sharer with 'LS. You are fortunate that the station can see the more granular data and was able to reverse its trend and become more viable.

 

[radiotower40]

David, I agree with your stance that WLS was playing to many 60's. I have also noticed
that the playlist has changed to a more 70's based play list as of late. This is part of the
reason they have gone back up in the July PPM's.

I am a little confused however, when do you ever say that this downward trend was going
to reverse in July? You said they are on a downward trend, you never indicated that the trend
would stop. If you did, I'm not finding it. You state that they reacted just as you said they would?
Where in this thread did you advise them on what to do? I realize you mentioned this in a post
after the ratings came out, however, I would like to see in this thread, and this thread alone,
where you stated all the things you are stating now.

Would you please show myself and the other readers where you said that WLS would be back
in the top ten in 25-54 in July? The way you wrote your last post, it would appear that you said
WLS would be OK again if they just moved their music a few years up. You did not do that, so
why are you trying to paint the picture in the readers minds, that you did so?

You are comparing WLS with WCBS? Anyone that knows these stations knows there are
some similarities in the playlist, yet WCBS plays Bon Jovi, Madonna, Prince and other groups
such as those on a regular basis, WLS does not.

 

[davideduardo]

I am a little confused however, when do you ever say that this downward trend was going
to reverse in July? You said they are on a downward trend, you never indicated that the trend
would stop. If you did, I'm not finding it. You state that they reacted just as you said they would?
Where in this thread did you advise them on what to do? I realize you mentioned this in a post
after the ratings came out, however, I would like to see in this thread, and this thread alone,
where you stated all the things you are stating now.

I said, several threads back, that unless the station changed the focus from the 60's into the 70's as had been done at CBS-FM, WOGL, etc., the station would fail to get sales demos in the PPM.

Would you please show myself and the other readers where you said that WLS would be back
in the top ten in 25-54 in July? The way you wrote your last post, it would appear that you said
WLS would be OK again if they just moved their music a few years up. You did not do that, so
why are you trying to paint the picture in the readers minds, that you did so?

I said that when they got rid of a lot of the geezer demo songs, they would do better in 25-54 and they did.

You are comparing WLS with WCBS? Anyone that knows these stations knows there are
some similarities in the playlist, yet WCBS plays Bon Jovi, Madonna, Prince and other groups
such as those on a regular basis, WLS does not.

And CBS FM is #1 or #2 in 25-54. Perhaps there is a lesson to be learned there.

That's my entire point: LS is too focused on 55+ listeners, and when they loose that focus, they will continue to improve. They took the first step, and it worked (with the caution that they are tied for 7th and within a few tents of a share point of being 12th or 13th... so the increase is tenuous.

 

[radiotower40]

David, I looked at all the threads that you and I engaged in about this topic. I have been
unable to find in any discussion I've had where you said that if WLS tweaked their playlist
a bit, that they would come back in the important demos in the PPM's.

I see you saying that WLS is a downtrend, I asked you too please show me exactly where
you said, in this discussion, that if WLS changed a bit, their numbers would improve.

So I'll ask again, please show the other members here where you said anything about WLS
possibly improving. All I've seen as you saying is that they are declining.

Please put up a quote from a previous thread we were both active in, where you stated that
WLS would improve in July.

That is all I'm requesting, if you did indeed say these things, please show us where.

Thank You,
TR1992

 

[davideduardo]

So I'll ask again, please show the other members here where you said anything about WLS
possibly improving. All I've seen as you saying is that they are declining.

Please put up a quote from a previous thread we were both active in, where you stated that
WLS would improve in July.

That is all I'm requesting, if you did indeed say these things, please show us where.

I have been saying, since prior to the CBS-FM return to classic hits, that stations with a 60s focus will not win the ad sales battle. If you want one specific boiled-down quote that proves something to you, then feel free to search on your own. Those that have read my comments over the years know how clear a distinction I have made betwee success at classic hits and failure at oldeis. In fact, those who have observed my programming contributions in this market and others can see it by example.

 

[radiotower40]

So I'll ask again, please show the other members here where you said anything about WLS
possibly improving. All I've seen as you saying is that they are declining.

Please put up a quote from a previous thread we were both active in, where you stated that
WLS would improve in July.

That is all I'm requesting, if you did indeed say these things, please show us where.

I have been saying, since prior to the CBS-FM return to classic hits, that stations with a 60s focus will not win the ad sales battle. If you want one specific boiled-down quote that proves something to you, then feel free to search on your own. Those that have read my comments over the years know how clear a distinction I have made betwee success at classic hits and failure at oldeis. In fact, those who have observed my programming contributions in this market and others can see it by example.

I got my answer, Thank You!

You are able to pick peoples posts apart, line by line on a daily basis, and call them out, point by
point, and tell them exactly why they are wrong and you are right, and show them with the exact
quote. Now suddenly it should be a self service scan through the entire board to find what you said?
That's Ridiculous, even for you.

I asked for ONE quote in this thread, ONE, and you can't provide it. WLS's numbers went up in 25-54,
and you are armchair quarterbacking, trying to take credit for it, in your own bizarre way.

Once again, Thank You, I always get a good laugh from you! I tried discussing things with you,
I tried arguing points with you, I even tried to be the bigger man, and admit I'm human, like
everyone else, and admit I'm wrong from time to time, which by the way, is a quality that I wonder
if you have. Have you ever admitted you could possibly be wrong about anything on this board?

Since you won't provide a quote about WLS, that means there isn't one. I got my answer an
I'm no longer going to bother trying to have a discussion with you about things, because you
are ALWAYS right David!

I'm not as close to the geezer demo as you are, so I have better things to do than waste my
time with a(name my grandma had for people who acted like you)than argue with you on a radio
board.

If anyone else wants to waste their time, feel free!

Good Luck!!!!!!!!(your gonna need it)
TR1992

 

[davideduardo]

I asked for ONE quote in this thread, ONE, and you can't provide it. WLS's numbers went up in 25-54,

Yes, they finally did, after 8 or 9 reports the station got showing them going down. The station obviously saw this and adjusted the music, as they were losing TSL, principally to WDRV and WLIT.

How much proof other than what I have stated since the format made its debut: it leaned too old to get good, consistent 25-54 numbers.

and you are armchair quarterbacking, trying to take credit for it, in your own bizarre way.

I said the station was going down, and that it was quite obvious that the problem was too much geezer music. The station obviously saw this, and at a far more granualar level via the same-sample-size weeklies and made some adjustments that we can all see via MediaBase or other service that does the equivalent of an era map.

Once again, Thank You, I always get a good laugh from you! I tried discussing things with you,I tried arguing points with you,

"Arguing" things that are wrong, such as suggesting WLS-FM does not have its highest percentage of sharing with WDRV and WLIT, is not arguing.

"Arguing" for a correlation between baseball on WGN and WLS-FM dipping when no other significant station that appeals to the demos that listen to radio baseball broadcasts is also just plain wrong.

Misunderstanding the PPM and its capture of hearing as well of listening is not wrong, but when this is explained and you ignore it your "arguement" fails. Stations with songs that average about 37 or 38 years old don't get listening of significance among people who are younger than the songs... those people may be exposed to WLS FM but that's the kind of "exposure" that is intentional as exposure to the Ebola virus.

Have you ever admitted you could possibly be wrong about anything on this board?

The point here is not my "rightness" or "wrongness." I'm duly contrite about my defense of HD Radio, for example, and have reversed my views quite openly because the facts did not support my early expectations. In the case of LS-FM, the facts don't support your contentions about any of the already mentioned points, so the real point here is that a station, even in the middle of financial reorganization, was able to change course enough to make a difference and can continue to serve much of the same audience that likes pop hits of the past.

If you like the format, celebrate the fact that the station has managed to stay in the game!


Select quotes:

(June) When CBS-FM is consistently in the top couple of stations in 25-54 in New York City, The Walrus top 5 in San Diego with a Mexican signal, WOGL third in Philly and KOOL-FM in the top several stations in Phoenix, it is very easy to state that WLS-FM is not performing as well as it should.

(June) You mention several good stations, but every market has comparable slicing of the pie, and WLS-FM simply aims a few years to high, demographically, to do as well as others in 25-54.

(July) I think, on the other hand, that the comments about WLS FM by VetaranPD are much closer to identifying the issues with the station. He said, "The CBS oldies group has shifted it's focus to "Greatest Hits" which today plays better than the concept of "Oldies." The problem with more traditional stations is that they skew to unsellable demos and even their listeners perceive themselves to be old..as indeed they are. Fact of life. The mantra for today's successful classic hits stations is there should be none of that "Hey remember back in the day" stuff. The songs are reporgrammable hits from the past. Any song that "sounds like an oldie" is avoided."

As I said, the station was aiming too old, saw the results, and corrected course. Good for them!

 

[scanman1]

And they still sound good after the playlist adjustment. I will admit my tastes in popular music of the past run into the early 90s, so as they make the sound younger I continue to listen, until the day comes they start playing music from the mid 90s onward (unless it's Rock, which is where my tastes went starting mid 90s). I've already accepted the fact 50s and mostly 60s doesn't work on a Classic Hits station, so I go to SiriusXM and webcasts for my fix of music from that era, and let WLS-FM do what it has to do to remain successful and not complain!

 

[BRNout]

They have worked a few more 80s titles into the playlist, as has Shannon. But that was more of a gradual thing and was no more prevalent in July than it was in June. Personally, I do not agree with David's assertion that a tweak in the playlist resulted in such a bounce. Now, for August, I have noticed a few more 80s titles sneaking in here and there - yet the playlist also still includes a very healthy dose of 60s titles. Particularly true during the local (non-TOC) dayparts.

Frankly, WLS' PD is doing a much better job slipping those later songs into the playlist than Scott Shannon is. I was listening over the weekend and heard Lou Christie's Lightning Striking Again segue into Foreigner's Cold as Ice. Very jarring. One of the first rules of programming would dictate that almost anyone who likes the first song would tune out on the second and vice versa.

Despite the fun of proving Sr. Eduardo wrong (and yes, that's how it went) - I still maintain that real judgment needs to wait until we get into September/October. However, of the big Chicago FMs, WLS-FM still has a lot less to worry about than many of the others.