WLS-FM Not working with listeners

[cspotrun]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

"The People"..Remember that little thing called LISTENERS? .."The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want"... so, i guess Advertisers/Business people will be posting signs Refusing to take the money of anyone over 55 right?.. its a Myth that keeps being treated as fact, and YOU have continued the Myth.. fact is many of the advertisers ARE over 55 that i come in contact with(do you want to turn away their business because they're over 55?) well, i don't know who you are but one thing is for sure, YOU WILL BE OVER 55 SOMEDAY, WILL YOU STOP BUYING GOODS AND SERVICES when you reach 56? i'm over 55 i have a PC, just bought a new car 2 months ago, i'm re-carpeting the house, i have the latest cell phone and apps, i eat out, and go to movies and concerts, but i don't have pimples, and am not living with relatives sorry...

 

[radioaircheck]

Awesome!!!! you hit that right on the head. I am 52 and I buy things!!

 

[davideduardo]

"The People"..Remember that little thing called LISTENERS? .."The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want"... so, i guess Advertisers/Business people will be posting signs Refusing to take the money of anyone over 55 right?.. its a Myth that keeps being treated as fact, and YOU have continued the Myth.. fact is many of the advertisers ARE over 55 that i come in contact with(do you want to turn away their business because they're over 55?) well, i don't know who you are but one thing is for sure, YOU WILL BE OVER 55 SOMEDAY, WILL YOU STOP BUYING GOODS AND SERVICES when you reach 56? i'm over 55 i have a PC, just bought a new car 2 months ago, i'm re-carpeting the house, i have the latest cell phone and apps, i eat out, and go to movies and concerts, but i don't have pimples, and am not living with relatives sorry...

Wow, I needed a Proton Shield to read through that!

The fact is that there are essentially no agency buys for 55+.

The reason is that agency clients (who specify the target) understand that the ROI on advertising to older demos is very poor. Sometimes, the cost of making the sale are greater than the profit on the sale, so it's a bad deal.

The reasons are varied. Older consumers are more skeptical. They often have long-term brand habits or preferences. They are not impulse buyers of staples. And so on.

While 55+ is a definite consumer group, and there is a percentage of 55+ consumers with good incomes, the driving force is Return On Investment; we see the results when we look at agency buys and note the absence of "geezer demo" buys.

In smaller markets, where most revenue is local and direct, there is a big opportunity for stations with older demos. In Top 10 markets, where getting the local, regional and national agency buys is critical, a station can not survive with a predominantly 55+ audience. Just look at WGN, where gross revenues are off nearly 50% in the last 10 years (and more than 60% in inflation adjusted dollars) if you want an example of how "being too old" in a major market will eventually strangle the revenue flow.

 

[KFodor]

"The People"..Remember that little thing called LISTENERS? .."The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want"... so, i guess Advertisers/Business people will be posting signs Refusing to take the money of anyone over 55 right?.. its a Myth that keeps being treated as fact, and YOU have continued the Myth.. fact is many of the advertisers ARE over 55 that i come in contact with(do you want to turn away their business because they're over 55?) well, i don't know who you are but one thing is for sure, YOU WILL BE OVER 55 SOMEDAY, WILL YOU STOP BUYING GOODS AND SERVICES when you reach 56? i'm over 55 i have a PC, just bought a new car 2 months ago, i'm re-carpeting the house, i have the latest cell phone and apps, i eat out, and go to movies and concerts, but i don't have pimples, and am not living with relatives sorry...

Wow, I needed a Proton Shield to read through that!

The fact is that there are essentially no agency buys for 55+.

The reason is that agency clients (who specify the target) understand that the ROI on advertising to older demos is very poor. Sometimes, the cost of making the sale are greater than the profit on the sale, so it's a bad deal.

The reasons are varied. Older consumers are more skeptical. They often have long-term brand habits or preferences. They are not impulse buyers of staples. And so on.

While 55+ is a definite consumer group, and there is a percentage of 55+ consumers with good incomes, the driving force is Return On Investment; we see the results when we look at agency buys and note the absence of "geezer demo" buys.

In smaller markets, where most revenue is local and direct, there is a big opportunity for stations with older demos. In Top 10 markets, where getting the local, regional and national agency buys is critical, a station can not survive with a predominantly 55+ audience. Just look at WGN, where gross revenues are off nearly 50% in the last 10 years (and more than 60% in inflation adjusted dollars) if you want an example of how "being too old" in a major market will eventually strangle the revenue flow.

David, I agree with the majority of what you say here, but be careful not to define all small towns as a "big opportunity" for stations with older demos.

I was the PD at then-oldies formatted WKIO-FM in Champaign-Urbana (then market 215). We took the station from a hybrid 50's to 80's oldies station that lacked focus back to the more traditional 50's-70's format back in 2001.

The ratings went way up. In fact, all the way to #1. Even in 25-54.

But, Champaign-Urbana is a college town. (Home of U of I.) We lost 50 cents on the dollar.

Despite explaining the buying power of the demo, the differences between the greatest generation and the baby boomers in terms of spending, health and lifestyle differences between the generations, etc, etc, etc...most advertisers were not even the slightest bit interested.

They'd say, "When are you guys going to start playing the 80's? The college kids won't listen to this stuff!"

Today, WKIO is an adult hits format. (Now known as "The Chief".) The 12 plus is lower, but I'll venture to suggest the demos are probably more acceptable to the advertising community, and the revenue better.

Which also shows those of you who keep insisting here that just playing oldies and getting the big audience is a guarantee of making big money. Let me assure you, from painful actual experience, it is no longer so.

 

[radioman148]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

 

[KFodor]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

So what this may indicate is that WLS-FM, in it's original 50's to 70's format got bigger numbers, but was most likely top heavy in "geezers". The music shift to a more "classic hits" posture most likely was brought about either by a fact that the demos they had were not necessarily producing the amount of revenue they wanted (or concern that they wouldn't be able to get it because of the top heavy "geezer" demo concentration).

Now today, both stations appear to be splitting the available 25-54 numbers, as, yes...some of the older audience may have abandoned the new WLS-FM approach, though both stations have gained some listeners. (Not a surprise, since a new competitor tends to cause audience numbers to expand the format's available audience a bit.) And, even with a 2.2, WLS-FM's sales numbers might actually prove equal or better than when they had a 3.9 if those numbers were too top heavy with "geezers".

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

 

[gbt216]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

So what this may indicate is that WLS-FM, in it's original 50's to 70's format got bigger numbers, but was most likely top heavy in "geezers". The music shift to a more "classic hits" posture most likely was brought about either by a fact that the demos they had were not necessarily producing the amount of revenue they wanted (or concern that they wouldn't be able to get it because of the top heavy "geezer" demo concentration).

Now today, both stations appear to be splitting the available 25-54 numbers, as, yes...some of the older audience has abandoned the new WLS-FM approach, though both stations have gained some listeners. (Not a surprise, since a new competitor tends to cause audience numbers to expand the format's available audience a bit.) And, even with a 2.2, WLS-FM's sales numbers might actually prove equal or better than when they had a 3.9 if those numbers were too top heavy with "geezers".

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

So what this all says to me is that ratings are irrelevant from a profit perspective and thus a more meaningful measure would be some sort of metric that reconciles advertiser sales resulting from the listening audience. In other words, my listening preferences are treated equally to the twenty and thirty something listeners in the way ratings are done currently, but to equate sales for advertsers, my listening preferences should be weighted less than a 20 or 30 something's listening preferences (I'm being semi-cynical in my observation). Therefore, WLS-FM need not worry about ratings in their current measuring form.

 

[KeithE4]

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

As a card-carrying member of the Fossil-American Community, I resemble that remark! ;D

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

Unfortunately, you're right. Fortunately, there is still non-comm radio (occasionally), streaming on the interwebs, YouTube, and people's own music collections that are easily digitized and loaded onto an MP3 player or smartphone.

Commercial radio? What's that? I thought it became extinct years ago. OK, not extinct - just irrelevant.

 

[secondchoice]

Here is what our office plays

http://wmce.mercyhurst.edu/

except for local weather, the station is either semi live (live assist back in the day) or these folks have a better VT system than CC.

 

[KFodor]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

So what this may indicate is that WLS-FM, in it's original 50's to 70's format got bigger numbers, but was most likely top heavy in "geezers". The music shift to a more "classic hits" posture most likely was brought about either by a fact that the demos they had were not necessarily producing the amount of revenue they wanted (or concern that they wouldn't be able to get it because of the top heavy "geezer" demo concentration).

Now today, both stations appear to be splitting the available 25-54 numbers, as, yes...some of the older audience has abandoned the new WLS-FM approach, though both stations have gained some listeners. (Not a surprise, since a new competitor tends to cause audience numbers to expand the format's available audience a bit.) And, even with a 2.2, WLS-FM's sales numbers might actually prove equal or better than when they had a 3.9 if those numbers were too top heavy with "geezers".

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

So what this all says to me is that ratings are irrelevant from a profit perspective and thus a more meaningful measure would be some sort of metric that reconciles advertiser sales resulting from the listening audience. In other words, my listening preferences are treated equally to the twenty and thirty something listeners in the way ratings are done currently, but to equate sales for advertsers, my listening preferences should be weighted less than a 20 or 30 something's listening preferences (I'm being semi-cynical in my observation). Therefore, WLS-FM need not worry about ratings in their current measuring form.

No...let me be clear:

The advertisers for radio don't care what people over 55 like, by and large. You (and me, too since I'm 57) are irrelevant to them, as least as far as advertising on radio goes.

Radio ads are clearly skewed to the under 55 crowd...most specifically targeted at 25-54 year olds, with the "sweet spot" for them being 35-44.

Since commercial radio has to make money, radio has no choice but to go along. Telling them about the buying power of the 55 plus-ers, the lifestyle changes, how much more active they are, means diddly squat to them.

A recent poster mentioned non-commercial radio should pick up these formats and frankly, I agree. I'm running an LP-FM that, right now anyway, has to invest leftover money into the station because we have a boatload of underwriters. Why? We're running a hybrid oldies format (50's to 80's) that does not ignore the early years music.

Oldies will still get a mass audience, even in small towns. It's just not the demographic advertisers desire. However, in non commercial broadcasting, you don't really need the demos as much as body count...i.e., people who will pay to support your programming.

That's where it needs to go.

 

[gbt216]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

So what this may indicate is that WLS-FM, in it's original 50's to 70's format got bigger numbers, but was most likely top heavy in "geezers". The music shift to a more "classic hits" posture most likely was brought about either by a fact that the demos they had were not necessarily producing the amount of revenue they wanted (or concern that they wouldn't be able to get it because of the top heavy "geezer" demo concentration).

Now today, both stations appear to be splitting the available 25-54 numbers, as, yes...some of the older audience has abandoned the new WLS-FM approach, though both stations have gained some listeners. (Not a surprise, since a new competitor tends to cause audience numbers to expand the format's available audience a bit.) And, even with a 2.2, WLS-FM's sales numbers might actually prove equal or better than when they had a 3.9 if those numbers were too top heavy with "geezers".

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

So what this all says to me is that ratings are irrelevant from a profit perspective and thus a more meaningful measure would be some sort of metric that reconciles advertiser sales resulting from the listening audience. In other words, my listening preferences are treated equally to the twenty and thirty something listeners in the way ratings are done currently, but to equate sales for advertsers, my listening preferences should be weighted less than a 20 or 30 something's listening preferences (I'm being semi-cynical in my observation). Therefore, WLS-FM need not worry about ratings in their current measuring form.

No...let me be clear:

The advertisers for radio don't care what people over 55 like, by and large. You (and me, too since I'm 57) are irrelevant to them, as least as far as advertising on radio goes.

Radio ads are clearly skewed to the under 55 crowd...most specifically targeted at 25-54 year olds, with the "sweet spot" for them being 35-44.

Since commercial radio has to make money, radio has no choice but to go along. Telling them about the buying power of the 55 plus-ers, the lifestyle changes, how much more active they are, means diddly squat to them.

A recent poster mentioned non-commercial radio should pick up these formats and frankly, I agree. I'm running an LP-FM that, right now anyway, has to invest leftover money into the station because we have a boatload of underwriters. Why? We're running a hybrid oldies format (50's to 80's) that does not ignore the early years music.

Oldies will still get a mass audience, even in small towns. It's just not the demographic advertisers desire. However, in non commercial broadcasting, you don't really need the demos as much as body count...i.e., people who will pay to support your programming.

That's where it needs to go.

I guess I'm not clear on exactly where my observation is in conflict with yours above, Jason (regarding commercial broadcasting). The only thing I've added (sarcastically, because advertisers aren't interested in my listening preferences and I don't know how they'd accomplish the following) is for ratings to carry a weighted average skewed toward the 35-44 sweet spot and give less weight to us 50+ folks that listen. Then advertisers would have ratings data to help their sales to do what they want, rather than respond to big ratings that may or may not consist of their targeted demographics.

 

[KFodor]

want to win? as far as wls-fm...hey, its real Simple, give the people what They Want, Not WHAT you WANT them to have.

And who are "the people?" The over 55 audience that advertisers don't want?

From http://chicagoradioandmedia.com/message-board:

Persons ages 25-54...

In the Classic Hits format battle between WLS-FM and WJMK-FM, K-Hits continues to win in this demo. WJMK-FM/104.3 K-Hits increased its share by .2 in the February period, now sitting at a 2.9 share, good enough for a tie at #14. WLS-FM also increased by a .2 share, but only has a 2.2 share now and sits at a tie for #20. In comparison, for the February 2012 ratings period, WLS-FM had a 3.9 share and was tied at #9, while WJMK-FM was #21 with a 2.2 share. In 2013, these two stations seem to be on opposite paths for the Persons 25-54 demographic.

So what this may indicate is that WLS-FM, in it's original 50's to 70's format got bigger numbers, but was most likely top heavy in "geezers". The music shift to a more "classic hits" posture most likely was brought about either by a fact that the demos they had were not necessarily producing the amount of revenue they wanted (or concern that they wouldn't be able to get it because of the top heavy "geezer" demo concentration).

Now today, both stations appear to be splitting the available 25-54 numbers, as, yes...some of the older audience has abandoned the new WLS-FM approach, though both stations have gained some listeners. (Not a surprise, since a new competitor tends to cause audience numbers to expand the format's available audience a bit.) And, even with a 2.2, WLS-FM's sales numbers might actually prove equal or better than when they had a 3.9 if those numbers were too top heavy with "geezers".

To our older readers: I mean no insult to you by calling the demo "geezers". I'm now in that demo, too.

That's the way the ratings and demo game works. Disagree if you like, but anyone with actual radio programming experience in working with radio and sales knows this to be true.

So what this all says to me is that ratings are irrelevant from a profit perspective and thus a more meaningful measure would be some sort of metric that reconciles advertiser sales resulting from the listening audience. In other words, my listening preferences are treated equally to the twenty and thirty something listeners in the way ratings are done currently, but to equate sales for advertsers, my listening preferences should be weighted less than a 20 or 30 something's listening preferences (I'm being semi-cynical in my observation). Therefore, WLS-FM need not worry about ratings in their current measuring form.

No...let me be clear:

The advertisers for radio don't care what people over 55 like, by and large. You (and me, too since I'm 57) are irrelevant to them, as least as far as advertising on radio goes.

Radio ads are clearly skewed to the under 55 crowd...most specifically targeted at 25-54 year olds, with the "sweet spot" for them being 35-44.

Since commercial radio has to make money, radio has no choice but to go along. Telling them about the buying power of the 55 plus-ers, the lifestyle changes, how much more active they are, means diddly squat to them.

A recent poster mentioned non-commercial radio should pick up these formats and frankly, I agree. I'm running an LP-FM that, right now anyway, has to invest leftover money into the station because we have a boatload of underwriters. Why? We're running a hybrid oldies format (50's to 80's) that does not ignore the early years music.

Oldies will still get a mass audience, even in small towns. It's just not the demographic advertisers desire. However, in non commercial broadcasting, you don't really need the demos as much as body count...i.e., people who will pay to support your programming.

That's where it needs to go.

I guess I'm not clear on exactly where my observation is in conflict with yours above, Jason (regarding commercial broadcasting). The only thing I've added (sarcastically, because advertisers aren't interested in my listening preferences and I don't know how they'd accomplish the following) is for ratings to carry a weighted average skewed toward the 35-44 sweet spot and give less weight to us 50+ folks that listen. Then advertisers would have ratings data to help their sales to do what they want, rather than respond to big ratings that may or may not consist of their targeted demographics.

I'm not so sure it's a disagreement, as much as I'm trying to point up the disconnect that a lot of advertisers have. Many on these boards, as you do, voice understandable frustration at the attitudes of those in the ad community. But, then that fuels the "know nothings" on these boards who don't have a clue that it's really not the radio stations, or young programmers or "corporate radio" that really are the culprits, but their understandable reactions to what advertisers tell them.

And, I'll admit, having been on the downside of this issue, sometimes I'm kind of sensitive to it. (It's frustrating, as I'm sure you can understand, to having taken a station to #1, only to be told, in effect, "So what?" by the advertisers.)

 

[AlanD]

SiriusXM has just added an amazing feature to those subscribers who listen via Internet (computer and smartphone) instead of satellite. They call it MyXSM. Let's say you enjoy listening to "60's on 6." You can personalize it with a 'control board' with three sliders. You can adjust the "popularity" of songs it will play for you, from just the same top hits you get everywhere all the way over to songs from the 60's which just made the Billboard Hot 100. Another slider can be adjusted from "Motown/Soul" "Pop/Rock." A third slider adjusts tempo from "slow" to "fast." And as another poster complained about, there are NO "puking" jocks.
This "control board" is available for all of their channels.

I'm a long time terrestial radio guy like most of you, but enjoying oldies and hating what radio has become, this has cemented me to my Sirius.