WLS FM.

[JoeyC]

Re: WLS FM.

WLS-FM, overall gets a grade of B or B-, its a good sounding station. The music sounds good.
Dick Biondi is the King, Danny Lake is a great sounding jock (Saturday night show is outstanding) Greg Brown sounds good. Landecker's 70's show is excellent.
The morning show, haven't heard it yet. So a B or B- grade.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

WLS-FM, overall gets a grade of B or B-, its a good sounding station. The music sounds good.
Dick Biondi is the King, Danny Lake is a great sounding jock (Saturday night show is outstanding) Greg Brown sounds good. Landecker's 70's show is excellent.
The morning show, haven't heard it yet. So a B or B- grade.

don't be too quick to give them an above average grade...Like you said...you haven't heard the morning show yet..[

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

don't be too quick to give them an above average grade...Like you said...you haven't heard the morning show yet..[

With mornings quite a bit less important than middays and afternoons, that is not the issue it once was.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

Though I tend to agree with you on most of your comments, I must point out that WLS-FM is doing pretty well in the ratings and can hardly be referred to as an "underperformer".

It does not do that well where it matters... averaging around 15th in 25.54 for the last quarter of '09.

 

[BRNout]

Re: WLS FM.

Though I tend to agree with you on most of your comments, I must point out that WLS-FM is doing pretty well in the ratings and can hardly be referred to as an "underperformer".

It does not do that well where it matters... averaging around 15th in 25.54 for the last quarter of '09.

Sorry David, but you are mistaken....or at least not up to date (to give you the benefit of the doubt).

In the most recent PPM 25-54 demos (March 2010), Mon-Sat 6:00-mid, WLS-FM was ranked number 8. If you look at cume, they were number 9.

In THE demo, WLS-FM outperformed both CHR's (B96 and Kiss), Jack, hamered supposedly youth-oriented Q-101, and pounded every single Spanish formatted station in the market save for WOJO (a juggernaut), which was ranked numero uno. Not pointing out that last group to be controversial, but I am doing so because I know you're very familiar with how well such formats are supposed to do with younger audiences.

Sadly, I don't have access to their financials at hand - but my understanding is that Citadel was very pleased with WLS-FM's performance and that their revenues significantly exceeded plan. So in this case, oldies are doing just fine where it counts.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

don't be too quick to give them an above average grade...Like you said...you haven't heard the morning show yet..[

With mornings quite a bit less important than middays and afternoons, that is not the issue it once was.

Well then, alot of people(MAKING HUGE SALARIES) ranging from Imus,Scott Shannon,Kidd Craddick,Ryan Seacrest,Gary Bryan to John Boy and Billy shouldn't waste their time getting up at 4am, HIT THE SNOOZE BAR YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT TO RADIO OR THE GREAT EDUARDO

QUICK..name a "Famous" midday person?....

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

Sorry David, but you are mistaken....or at least not up to date (to give you the benefit of the doubt).

In the most recent PPM 25-54 demos (March 2010), Mon-Sat 6:00-mid, WLS-FM was ranked number 8. If you look at cume, they were number 9.

The March PPM book is not going to be out until next Wednesday, April 21.

In the last year, the station has been somewhere around 13th to 14th on average and in that demo. With the high compression in PPM, the difference between a rank position is often one or two tenths of a share point. I would bet money that when March does come out, the station will be around that same 13th, give or take a 0.2 in share.

Cume is almost irrelevant. It is not an individual station buying criteria (although it is used to optimize multi-station buys based on cume reach of the unduplicated kind).

In THE demo, WLS-FM outperformed both CHR's (B96 and Kiss),

18-49 and 25-54 are the broad demos. Each station covers parts of that spread. CHRs are 18-34 female targeted, and thus a big part of any buy against females. Kiss was #1 18-34 women for the October, November and December books, averaged. B-96 was 5th. WLS-FM was 17th. Further, KIIS and WBBM-FM are fairly direct competitors (one being more rhythmic, though) so the shares for CHR as a format would be #1.

Jack,

For the last 3 books of 2009, Jack was #2 18-49 males. WLS-FM was 17th.

hamered supposedly youth-oriented Q-101,

Q101 has had problems, and has acknowledged them. Still, 18-34 men it was 4th.

and pounded every single Spanish formatted station in the market save for WOJO (a juggernaut), which was ranked numero uno.

WOJO's target is 18-49, and more specifically, 25-44. It is #1 in both demos. WLS-FM is 21st in 18-49 there.

Not pointing out that last group to be controversial, but I am doing so because I know you're very familiar with how well such formats are supposed to do with younger audiences.

WLEY is a less than full signal, and it was not encoded for part of the last book; WVIV/X is a pair of Class A's and yet they beat WLS-FM in that three book average in 18-49 with an adult hits or oldies format. WPPN is a limited signal tied in a format to format battle with WNUA, so a comparison against a station with no direct competitor in format is less than appropriate.

Sadly, I don't have access to their financials at hand

Hint: they are in BK.

but my understanding is that Citadel was very pleased with WLS-FM's performance and that their revenues significantly exceeded plan. So in this case, oldies are doing just fine where it counts.

First, if you project low in a plan, you have a better chance of outperforming.

Second, were WLS-FM a true classic hits station, it would be better positioned for sales. Oldies is a tough sell anywhere, let alone in the bigger markets. They will have to move more 70's to improve revenues, which in 2009 ranked them 16th or 17th (a near tie) in the market.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

Well then, alot of people(MAKING HUGE SALARIES) ranging from Imus,Scott Shannon,Kidd Craddick,Ryan Seacrest,Gary Bryan to John Boy and Billy shouldn't waste their time getting up at 4am, HIT THE SNOOZE BAR YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT TO RADIO OR THE GREAT EDUARDO

In case you have not noticed, a considerable number of famous and well compensated morning persons in PPM markets are not on the air any more, and many morning shows have been scaled back. The trades reported how Ryan Seacrest had a snit when told to cut back the chatter when jockless direct format competitor KAMP beat him in the middle of last year...

From Phoenix (Pratt, Gardner) to Chicago, famous morning shows are changing or going away. With mid-days averaging around 20% more listening (PUR) than mornings and afternoons close behind, we'll see lots more changes in mornings in the near future.

 

[BRNout]

Re: WLS FM.

David, I meant the one that came out in March and yes it was February's book. I'll admit to that error in that I was rushing to crank out the stats. But my comment stands.

Furthermore, without getting into yet another donnybrook with you, Citadel has the station running very lean and it is thus very profitable for them. I live here and can tell you this from personal knowledge. The ratings are good and are actually on the upswing. I would be fascinated to see how WVIV and their micro ratings beat WLS-FM in any but a very thinly parsed demo. They ranked 19th in cume (their strongest stat) while 'LS was 8th. By the way, where was full signal WNUA (Mega) in the 25-54 demo? 25th.

Also, you have clearly elected to parse the ratings in such a way as to paint the most negative picture possible. WLS-FM does very well in the demos that it needs to hit, has a solid book of advertisers that include agency buys, local retailers and other more lucrative businesses (as opposed to pyramid schemes and colon blow products) and - again - is quite profitable. Do you ever actually listen to what's advertised there? In fact, Citadel was initially quite pleasantly surprised at how well it does. It's a solid format and it isn't going anywhere.

Since you're so handy with the stats, please provide us with the revenue figures for WLS-FM versus those of WVIV. Then, the bottom lines.

You are quickly reminding me of that old saying that are three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics. I'll add a fourth category - spin.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

The ratings are good and are actually on the upswing. I would be fascinated to see how WVIV and their micro ratings beat WLS-FM in any but a very thinly parsed demo. They ranked 19th in cume (their strongest stat) while 'LS was 8th. By the way, where was full signal WNUA (Mega) in the 25-54 demo? 25th.

Cume is not a sales metric of particular significance, but AQH listening is.

WNUA was a start-up as a Spanish contemporary, going against WPPN which was already in the format and which moved to counter WNUA quite rapidly.

What WNUA shows is how stations with demost that are too old are forced to change format. The smooth jazz format on WNAU was leaning very 55+ and declining...

Also, you have clearly elected to parse the ratings in such a way as to paint the most negative picture possible.

You compared WLS FM to the CHRs, to an alternative rocker and the Sanish Language stations.

25-54 and 18-54 are the broad areas within which essentially all transactional buys are made. But buys are not necessarily broadly made against the whole demo, and even when they are, buyers make sure the young end, the old end and the middle are all covered.

CHRs cover females in the 18-34 part. Spanish language stations cover 25-44 best. An alternative rocker will be 25-34 and 25-44.

In fact, the demo rapidly becoming the most bought is 18-49 to such an extent that in the PPM weeklies software, Arbiton, which had only offered 18-34 and 25-54 in the sales demos now also has 18-49. The increase in 18-49 buys and the heightened interest in 18-34 as well make stations leaning 45+ look pretty awful.

Since you're so handy with the stats, please provide us with the revenue figures for WLS-FM versus those of WVIV. Then, the bottom lines.

The WVIV format is also quite new; it had a format change last Spring... you should know that format changes are not monetized immediately. And you should also know about the "Hispanic discount" where all stations in Spanish save in Miami stuggle to achieve power ratios similar to those of comparably rated English language stations. Even then, WVIV billed about 70% of what LS did last year. Not bad for a Spanish language class A... due, of course, to its very strong 25-44 and 25-49 (both buying demos) performance.

We can guess about WLS-FM's BCF, but we do not know, but of course we know Citadel is overall in huge trouble.

You are quickly reminding me of that old saying that are three types of lies: lies, damn lies and statistics. I'll add a fourth category - spin.

WLS_FM had a nice February, well above its looooooooooooooooong PPM level, with no indication of any kind of trending. March will likely show it back into the 10th to 15th in sales demos.

The spin here is yours. You compare CHRs with oldies stations, and when the ratings metric fails you, you switch to billings.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

Well then, alot of people(MAKING HUGE SALARIES) ranging from Imus,Scott Shannon,Kidd Craddick,Ryan Seacrest,Gary Bryan to John Boy and Billy shouldn't waste their time getting up at 4am, HIT THE SNOOZE BAR YOU'RE NOT IMPORTANT TO RADIO OR THE GREAT EDUARDO

In case you have not noticed, a considerable number of famous and well compensated morning persons in PPM markets are not on the air any more, and many morning shows have been scaled back.
if they are, it is because owners ARE CUTTING COSTS. nothing more.
The trades reported how Ryan Seacrest had a snit when told to cut back the chatter when jockless direct format competitor KAMP beat him in the middle of last year...
the fact that seacrest can be beaten by a jockless competitor is a TRIBUTE TO HIS LACK OF ANY NOTICABLE "TALENT".
From Phoenix (Pratt, Gardner) to Chicago, famous morning shows are changing or going away.
ok, you cite Phoenix, 2 people! THAT'S NOT MANY EXAMPLES in order to make your case. i had MORE examples of Morning Talent ON THE AIR every morning, that just came from top of the mind...
With mid-days averaging around 20% more listening (PUR) than mornings and afternoons close behind, we'll see lots more changes in mornings in the near future.

if the caliber of morning shows we can expect is as LAME as dave fogel on wls-fm, RADIO IS IN ONE HELL OF ALOT OF TROUBLE.

 

[barman]

Re: WLS FM.

If you like the old Drake presentation and usually a few more of the 60's than elsewhere, there's a station out of Northeast (that's the name of the city) Pennsylvania called WYNE. They stream online and the jocks are horrible. The jingles and tunes are worth it, to my taste. They play very few commercials. If you can get past the DJs, and the you like the 60s, it's worth a try.

I've heard WYNE. They're not bad, but one I like better is KFXM.com out in California. They play lots of "oh-wows" from the 50s and 60s, practically every other one.

 

[wilson1000]

Re: WLS FM.

I'm sorry, but Biondi is not the only personality as it has been stated....how about LANDECKER??? Ya, him! He's awesome!

 

[BRNout]

Re: WLS FM - still exceeding Old Gringo's expectations

WLS_FM had a nice February, well above its looooooooooooooooong PPM level, with no indication of any kind of trending. March will likely show it back into the 10th to 15th in sales demos.

BUZZER! Incorrect.

New PPMs are out for March. March 25-54: WLS-FM is 8th, M-F 6a-mid also 8th in cume (cume ranking was up slightly). The ranking was 7th with females 25-54; 12th with men 25-54. Here's the killer: in the 18-34 demo, WLS-FM still came in 16th and ahead of such stations as Fresh, WVIV, and WPPN (not to mention the lowly WLIT). Nobody expects much of an oldies station in that demo, yet they still did okay. Honestly, better than I thought they would.

All these numbers are pretty consistent with January and February and not indicative of a fluke - as you've argued here. In other words, they do pretty well with the oldies format.

By the way, not everyone needs to go after the 18-34 demo by programming CHR, alt. rock or Espanol. That's a myth. The rest of us enjoy other formats, spend money, and can be affected by the 'right' ads.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM - still exceeding Old Gringo's expectations

New PPMs are out for March. March 25-54: WLS-FM is 8th, M-F 6a-mid also 8th in cume (cume ranking was up slightly). The ranking was 7th with females 25-54; 12th with men 25-54. Here's the killer: in the 18-34 demo, WLS-FM still came in 16th and ahead of such stations as Fresh, WVIV, and WPPN (not to mention the lowly WLIT). Nobody expects much of an oldies station in that demo, yet they still did okay. Honestly, better than I thought they would.

The PPM measures exposure, not just listening. That's the principal reason why the PPM shows considerable listening in demos that have no reason to listen to a particular format. Kids listening to oldies are generally exposed to such stations when with parents; listening by seniors to CHR are the same in reverse. Or listening to very "American" English langauge formats by Spanish-only listeners is also a product of the exposure to such a station even if the music is as unfathomable as the talk.

As to a "trend" note that the difference betwen seventh and seventeenth is a single share point. And WLS FM is still within the statistical range that identifies it as a below-tenth place station in 25-54.

By the way, not everyone needs to go after the 18-34 demo by programming CHR, alt. rock or Espanol. That's a myth. The rest of us enjoy other formats, spend money, and can be affected by the 'right' ads.

My point is that no station goes after 25-54... they go after a portion of it. ChR's go after 18-34 women, but they get some 18-34 men and teens, too, as part of the deal. Oldies stations appeal mostly to 50'+, but they get enough under-55's to sometimes look OK in 25-54. Sports stations go after men, and get very little female listening... every station has a specific target that, hopefully, gets it part of the 18-49 or 25-54 overall sales demos. 12-17 and 55+ are not sales demos, because there are essentially no buys against those demos.

So, before you blame me, or radio stations or even ad agencies, it's the clients of the agencies that specify the demos... and whether 55+ persons are able to buy things has nothing to do with it.

 

[cyberdad]

Re: WLS FM.

Does the name "Willie Sutton" mean anything to anybody?

He was a notorious criminal in the first half of the twentieth century. When the law finally caught up with him, someone asked him why he robbed banks. Sutton then famously replied, "because that's where the money is".

Ad agencies operate on a variation of the same basic principle. As do those who sell to them.

 

[BRNout]

Re: WLS FM.

The main point that I wanted to get through to David was that Citadel is doing quite a bit better with oldies on 94.7 than he was willing to give them credit for. Based on the PPM's, it's not a fluke - no matter how hard you try to spin it.

Also, if you try to discount "exposure" to a given station then you're forced to place an asterisk next to every high-performing AC station in the US too. Why? Because stations like Lite 106.7 (NY), B101 (Philly) and even WLYF (Miami) get a nice chunk of their audience from office and neutral location exposure too. The PPM's now capture that listening, as they should.

Clearly, WLS-FM benefits from office listening - but that's part of the business. After all, nobody rides a bus to read ads, yet there they are. You place ads when you can quantitatively measure how many people they will reach. WLS-FM has its strongest ratings during work hours (M-F), implying that there is a 'captive audience' component. Nonetheless, they hear the spots too. It all counts.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

The main point that I wanted to get through to David was that Citadel is doing quite a bit better with oldies on 94.7 than he was willing to give them credit for. Based on the PPM's, it's not a fluke - no matter how hard you try to spin it.

And... if you look at mediabase in the last 12 weeks, labeling WLS as "oldies" is more and more difficult, as it appears to be gravitating towards the vastly more successful CBS model of classic hits. Fully half the list is 1970 or later, and there are nearly as many Billy Joel and Hall & Oates songs from the 80's as there are Frankie Ford songs from the 50's.

It would not surprise me to see WLS FM, if it continues this way, break into the 4 share range in 25-54 starting with weekends, where it appears it has got some recent momentum.

At some point, they lose the 50's junk and then they will be a top 5 or 6 station 25-54. But they can't do it with the Dell-Vikings or the Rays.

Also, if you try to discount "exposure" to a given station then you're forced to place an asterisk next to every high-performing AC station in the US too. Why? Because stations like Lite 106.7 (NY), B101 (Philly) and even WLYF (Miami) get a nice chunk of their audience from office and neutral location exposure too. The PPM's now capture that listening, as they should.

Exposure is something advertisers wanted, as you know from your bus card analogy... which is a good way of putting it, too. However, thse boards are littered with people who think that the 18-34 PPM numbers for such formats indicate a growing passion for the Spaniels and the Penguins in that demo...

If WLS FM continues to leave behind the vestiges of Biondi singing "on top of a pizza, all covered with cheese..." and goes more 70's with a touch of 80's, they will be a major contender. Let's see if Citadel knows how to copy the CBS formula.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

if WLS-FM copies the CBS formula.....
agreed, but one thing i like about CBS-FM is They are playing the 70's and some 80's yes, but haven't forgotten the 60's! you will still hear an Elvis or Beatles from time to time... you get the feel that they are the not cheating the audience..Formula is Variety..and more importantly PERSONALITY WHEN wls-fm GETS THAT, they may be on their way to THE Formula...

 

[BRNout]

Re: WLS FM.

And... if you look at mediabase in the last 12 weeks, labeling WLS as "oldies" is more and more difficult, as it appears to be gravitating towards the vastly more successful CBS model of classic hits. Fully half the list is 1970 or later, and there are nearly as many Billy Joel and Hall & Oates songs from the 80's as there are Frankie Ford songs from the 50's.

It would not surprise me to see WLS FM, if it continues this way, break into the 4 share range in 25-54 starting with weekends, where it appears it has got some recent momentum.

At some point, they lose the 50's junk and then they will be a top 5 or 6 station 25-54. But they can't do it with the Dell-Vikings or the Rays.

True about the pre-1964 stuff (for the most part), but there's only so far forward they can go with the playlist without turning off some of their audience and (importantly) running up against a crowded market of stations that feature a lot of 80s music (WDRV, WILV, WJMK, etc.). Having specialty shows that feature older titles doesn't hurt a bit and has, in fact, led to success here and elsewhere.

If WLS FM continues to leave behind the vestiges of Biondi singing "on top of a pizza, all covered with cheese..." and goes more 70's with a touch of 80's, they will be a major contender. Let's see if Citadel knows how to copy the CBS formula.

David, we may not agree on some things, but I am surprised at your cheap shot of Dick Biondi. That's something I'd expect of a 20 year old pothead on this board, but not you. Very unprofessional comment.

Dick is a living legend, he commands a loyal following, and he's still one hell of a great talent. And.....this 18-49 year old tries to catch his show whenever possible.