WLS FM.

[cyberdad]

Re: WLS FM.

And even arguing with buyers is futile... they have instructions from much higher up, generally the client, which they can't change.

I have a situation going on right now in my "parallel universe" which illustrates the point....

Client is in Belgium.  Convinced that in print media, one sixth of a page actually has more visibility/impact/effect as a full page.

Aside from the obvious, I have a stack of research literally inches thick that contradicts this.  The agency has the same research.  They're 100% on my side....from the President on down...in attempting to refute the client's "logic".
 
Client's background is engineering....little or no marketing. 

Agency....based in Munich....is loaded with top industry veterans. Great knowledge base.  Great client portfolio all over Europe. Proven track record.

Take a guess what creative unit the buy consists of!

No known connection, but the client is located right up the street from the Stella Artois brewery.

Apologies for the veer off topic....but those reading might be surprised to know how many of us in b2b print/web came out of radio.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

I have no issue for those who enjoy listening to the music. I have trouble with people who think that the music and the format are bigger than what they are in reality.

i don't see anyone on this thread doing that, they just have a passion for the music and take exception to your constant slamming of the music and the format.

Most folks who wish there was more 50's and early 60's music on the radio respond to the economic and demographic reality when explained. You obviously believe that showing what is reality and why it is real is somehow a "slam."

nothing is absolute and there are always exceptions. what you have is an opinion and those things are open for debate so,i'm NOTbuying into your brand of"Reality"

give it a rest, your posts are like a broken record.

s I said, I am involved and have been involved in a bunch of classic hits stations for over a decade... and we saw reality and now play less than 30 60's titles out of 1,100 total...

you sound like you are a consultant or possibly a corporate type, both have destroyed radio in their own ways

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

well, if they're calling they appear to be LISTENING! i could be crazy but that indicates they LIKE IT!

People who have the time to call a music station represent only a tiny fraction of the audience, and one that is not representative at that.

agreed, not everyone who is listening will call you. back to my point which was if they call they ARE listening and they probably like the radio station[/i] no one thinks calls are a scientific polling device.

thats a better sign than getting NO calls isn't it?

No, not necessarily. One of my most successful stations hardly got any phone calls during its first months on the air... we were a little worried between sign-on and the first ratings release, because the phone just did not ring.
After we got the numbers, we realized that all the songs and the rotations and the talent was on target to such an extent that nobody felt the need to call.

Oh Pleeeezeee..

example... if your radio station's transmitter blows up and NOBODY calls in to ask what happened, where are you its a pretty good indication that no on is listening....

I've been in the studio of a station in LA that was totally #1 when it lost airtime (as rare as that was) and nobody called. Protecting someone else's business is not a natural instinct or reaction.

several years ago i worked at a station that carried Paul Harvey, it was #1 on my station and i can tell you that if Harvey was delayed due to network problems the phones were jammed with angry callers.

how long would a "Talk Show" last on AM radio without calls?

In case you have not noticed, the biggest opinion based shows (as opposed to Q&A shows like Clark Howard) can go days without a single call. And when calls are used, it may take 10 an hour to sustain a station or show with hundreds of thousands of cumers if not more. Like requests ("If you call and ask for the song I was going to play anyway, I will take the request") calls can be selected or even staged to get a subject rolling... this is show business. Oh, and the people who are killed on the CSI shows are not really killed, either...

OH REALLY!!

i've heard people on Talk Shows (mostly local) BEG for calls and never get them...i feel sorry for them...
i've worked for winners and losers...and the WINNERS ALWAYS had a more active audience that made the phones light up.... and the Losers couldn't make the phones light up if they were giving away $100 bills. just sayin'...

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

you sound like you are a consultant or possibly a corporate type, both have destroyed radio in their own ways

I'm a person who built a station so I could be PD when nobody in their right mind would hire me to program a station. I was, to the surprise of all, successful. I built a bunch of stations. I was asked to help with stations that were not successful.

So, guilty as charged. I have been a consultant and I have been in management. I've been arrested at gunpoint for defendinng democracy in a dictatorship, too. So you must be guilty of stereotyping, because neither all consultants nor all management folks are bad... and neither consultants nor most managers have destroyed radio.

You still have not clicked the link; you hurl unfounded insults because since you can not refute what I said.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

i've heard people on Talk Shows (mostly local) BEG for calls and never get them...i feel sorry for them...

Not all stations, formats or shows are successful. A talk show with a subject nobody has an opinion on or which is just a bad show gets no calls.

i've worked for winners and losers...and the WINNERS ALWAYS had a more active audience that made the phones light up....

That is just not true. Some formats don't have listeners who have any reason to call.

A good example would be the Beautiful Music stations of the 70's and much of the 80's, many of which were either #1 or in the top couple of stations in their markets. Those listeners seldom if ever called the stations...

And there are plenty of cases I have seen where a #1 station has got its music and rotations very close to perfect, so there is, again, no reason to call. I gave you an example of a station with over a 30 share in a top 15 market with more than 30 stations which nearly never got calls, despite an 18-34 target.

and the Losers couldn't make the phones light up if they were giving away $100 bills. just sayin'...

Yet stations with no measured audience can sell colon cleanser in an infomercial and sell loads of product. There is no single answer to each radio question... saying the phones must ring does not take into account different formats, markets, programmers and stations.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

you sound like you are a consultant or possibly a corporate type, both have destroyed radio in their own ways

I'm a person who built a station so I could be PD when nobody in their right mind would hire me to program a station. I was, to the surprise of all, successful. I built a bunch of stations. I was asked to help with stations that were not successful.

So, guilty as charged. I have been a consultant and I have been in management. I've been arrested at gunpoint for defendinng democracy in a dictatorship, too. So you must be guilty of stereotyping, because neither all consultants nor all management folks are bad... and neither consultants nor most managers have destroyed radio.

You still have not clicked the link; you hurl unfounded insults because since you can not refute what I said.

nice website i spent an hour there tonight and enjoyed it, but it doesn't validate your OPINIONS..
if you want to defend consultants and corporate types that is your right, but you will be lonely out there in the wilderness. and your credibility will be compromised. you really haven't stated anything other than your opinion, and i can't refute what you believe in your head-and you can't refute what i believe, so why have a pissing match? all i know is that i've had success doing a radio format playing 60's & 70's music in several markets -it makes MONEY and gets ratings-and you deny its possible, and TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY ACROSS 50 STATES ON THIS BLOG WHEN THE SUBJECT COMES UP TO TELL EVERYONE WHY A STATION PLAYING 60'S & 70'S MUSIC CAN'T MAKE IT AND SHOULDN'T EXIST.
I have but ONE question....WHY do you feel it your mission to do this?

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

i've heard people on Talk Shows (mostly local) BEG for calls and never get them...i feel sorry for them...

Not all stations, formats or shows are successful. A talk show with a subject nobody has an opinion on or which is just a bad show gets no calls.

i've worked for winners and losers...and the WINNERS ALWAYS had a more active audience that made the phones light up....

That is just not true. Some formats don't have listeners who have any reason to call.

A good example would be the Beautiful Music stations of the 70's and much of the 80's, many of which were either #1 or in the top couple of stations in their markets. Those listeners seldom if ever called the stations...

And there are plenty of cases I have seen where a #1 station has got its music and rotations very close to perfect, so there is, again, no reason to call. I gave you an example of a station with over a 30 share in a top 15 market with more than 30 stations which nearly never got calls, despite an 18-34 target.

and the Losers couldn't make the phones light up if they were giving away $100 bills. just sayin'...

Yet stations with no measured audience can sell colon cleanser in an infomercial and sell loads of product. There is no single answer to each radio question... saying the phones must ring does not take into account different formats, markets, programmers and stations.

i guess i've never worked at a station thats music was so PERFECT no one felt the need to call, i doubt anyone else has either. you are correct about the old beautiful music format-those listeners were in some kind of COMA. request lines these days are not pushed on air the way they were back in the day. and with voice-tracking and canned shows WHY would anyone call anyway? i didn't want to make a big issue of this, i was just stating that all the successful stations i've worked had very active phone lines, when i was live on the air, if they didn't the rating usually reflected it. its just my observation, nothing to get your pants in a wad about. and yes i think the format has alot to do with active callers.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

i guess i've never worked at a station thats music was so PERFECT no one felt the need to call, i doubt anyone else has either.

I've been with quite a few. They tend to be more adult-demo driven, but by no means all of them were. If a listener is enjoying the music, and is hearing what they expected to hear, they are unlikely to call in the majority of formats.

you are correct about the old beautiful music format-those listeners were in some kind of COMA.

In truth, in the 70's, Beautiful music was a 35-54 format, and had little over-55 initially because those over 55 in that era were standards fans... i.e. Glen Miller, Sinatra and the Andrews Sisters. They did not like Paul Mauriat and Roger Whittaker.

The usage of Beautiful Music was not unlike AC in today's world... a softer alternative to accompány activities like work and even hectic traffic.

request lines these days are not pushed on air the way they were back in the day. and with voice-tracking and canned shows WHY would anyone call anyway?

Why would anyone call a Beautiful Music station to request a song. Save occasional calls to inquire about a song's performer, many formats did not have request lines, just as they don't today. Requests were, actually, more pushed in the 60's and 70's than today... because stations did not have the amount of listener feedback that later showed that preserving rotations and flow were vastly more important than playing one person's favorite song...

All of us who have answered studio phones, whatever the line was called, are familiar with the requests for the song that we just played five minutes ago... callers are often atypical and dangerous. They are, in this sense, not unlike prize pigs in contributing nothing useful to a station

i didn't want to make a big issue of this, i was just stating that all the successful stations i've worked had very active phone lines, when i was live on the air, if they didn't the rating usually reflected it. its just my observation, nothing to get your pants in a wad about. and yes i think the format has alot to do with active callers.

And, as I said, active callers are a poor guidance. Just as the old saying of "the ones with the sexy voices are ugly slobs" is often true, callers should be acknowledged but not prioritized highly. And the phone is not a ratings device.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

all i know is that i've had success doing a radio format playing 60's & 70's music in several markets -it makes MONEY and gets ratings-and you deny its possible, and TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY ACROSS 50 STATES ON THIS BLOG WHEN THE SUBJECT COMES UP TO TELL EVERYONE WHY A STATION PLAYING 60'S & 70'S MUSIC CAN'T MAKE IT AND SHOULDN'T EXIST.
I have but ONE question....WHY do you feel it your mission to do this?

STOP YELLING.

You obviously have not read most of this thread. I never said that playing a touch of 60's and having a 70's based pop CHR gold format can't make it. I have said exactly the opposite.

All along my point has bent that 50's and 60's based gold formats reach liteners 65+, and can not survive economically. This, as I pointed out, is why such a high percentage of oldies stations have changed to 70's based classic hits formats... while at the high end of 25-54, the format gets good to great sales demos when well done.

But if you want to spin the Del Vikings, the Monotones and Little Peggy March, you are not going to be very successful.

So you have been arguing with a point I never made.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

if you want to defend consultants and corporate types that is your right, but you will be lonely out there in the wilderness. and your credibility will be compromised. you really haven't stated anything other than your opinion, and i can't refute what you believe in your head-and you can't refute what i believe, so why have a pissing match?

Sticking with what is apparently the only format you are focused on, I will give you some examples of "bad" consultants and "bad" corporate types from the same era...

Consultants. Bill Drake, Rick Sklar, Paul Drew, Buzz Bennett, Ron Jacobs.

Corporate types: Gary Stevens, Bill Stewart, Todd Storz, Gorden McLendon, John Kluge, Arch Madsen, Herbert Eavans.

And today, you can find the same... for "evil corporate suits" take a look at Ed Christian, Bob Neil, Peter Smyth, Bruce Reese and Gary Stone for starters.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

all i know is that i've had success doing a radio format playing 60's & 70's music in several markets -it makes MONEY and gets ratings-and you deny its possible, and TAKE EVERY OPPORTUNITY ACROSS 50 STATES ON THIS BLOG WHEN THE SUBJECT COMES UP TO TELL EVERYONE WHY A STATION PLAYING 60'S & 70'S MUSIC CAN'T MAKE IT AND SHOULDN'T EXIST.
I have but ONE question....WHY do you feel it your mission to do this?

STOP YELLING.

You obviously have not read most of this thread. I never said that playing a touch of 60's and having a 70's based pop CHR gold format can't make it. I have said exactly the opposite.

All along my point has bent that 50's and 60's based gold formats reach liteners 65+, and can not survive economically. This, as I pointed out, is why such a high percentage of oldies stations have changed to 70's based classic hits formats... while at the high end of 25-54, the format gets good to great sales demos when well done.
But if you want to spin the Del Vikings, the Monotones and Little Peggy March, you are not going to be very successful.
So you have been arguing with a point I never made.

there can't be that many stations still playing 50's music out there, and certainly not enough to waste time talking about, and not worthy of your constant lecturing on the subject. the format has moved up from the 50's-60's to the 60's 70's agreed. i bet more 18-24 year olds know who Elvis was than know who the Vice President is.

 

[cspotrun]

Re: WLS FM.

if you want to defend consultants and corporate types that is your right, but you will be lonely out there in the wilderness. and your credibility will be compromised. you really haven't stated anything other than your opinion, and i can't refute what you believe in your head-and you can't refute what i believe, so why have a pissing match?

Sticking with what is apparently the only format you are focused on, I will give you some examples of "bad" consultants and "bad" corporate types from the same era...

Consultants. Bill Drake, Rick Sklar, Paul Drew, Buzz Bennett, Ron Jacobs.

Corporate types: Gary Stevens, Bill Stewart, Todd Storz, Gorden McLendon, John Kluge, Arch Madsen, Herbert Eavans.

And today, you can find the same... for "evil corporate suits" take a look at Ed Christian, Bob Neil, Peter Smyth, Bruce Reese and Gary Stone for starters.

ok, i can't speak for the rest but you can't deny the success of a Rick Sklar,Bill Drake,Gordon McLendon-Todd Storz.. Whoa...you are talking about Top-40 Radio Pioneers! without them radio would never had a 2nd Golden Age in the late 50's & 60's... if you can't understand that, well there's not much anyone can tell you.

 

[Whiplash]

Re: WLS FM.

You guys hit it on the head concerning the lack of personalities on WLS FM. Mornings are certainly hurting the station right now.

I love what The Drive is doing. Bonneville IMO is the most creative company in the country right now. Their trying some new things, new gimmicks, and its working.

Ignore you know who here. Except for on these boards, no one has ever heard of him. I've read his oldies ramblings for years.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

ok, i can't speak for the rest but you can't deny the success of a Rick Sklar,Bill Drake,Gordon McLendon-Todd Storz.. Whoa...you are talking about Top-40 Radio Pioneers! without them radio would never had a 2nd Golden Age in the late 50's & 60's... if you can't understand that, well there's not much anyone can tell you.

Actually, Storz had the first "Top 40" station in the very early 50's (August, 1952) when music base radio came on the scene almost simultaneously with the lifting of the TV freeze and the very rapid decline of the network radio model. Stewart and McLendon emulated the success of Storz almost instantly. Sklar and Drake came to prominence nearly a decade later... in radio terms, hardly pioneers.

I was fortunate to have met Mr. Storz just before his death and he took the time to give me a quick course in Top 40. It was easy to see why he was so successful.

Of course, the examples I gave of some of the good, professional radio leaders of today was ignored by you as realizing that, like in any other era, 99% of radio people are good. For every Don Burden we have a Peter Smyth.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

there can't be that many stations still playing 50's music out there, and certainly not enough to waste time talking about, and not worthy of your constant lecturing on the subject.

The bulk of the complaining posted on these boards has to do with the lack of 50's and early to mid 60's songs, and most of the rest are about how there have been thousands of top 50 songs, yet stations only play 600 or 700 of them. Most of them appreciate an explanation of the sales and economic factors that influence radio.

the format has moved up from the 50's-60's to the 60's 70's agreed.

Not really. "Oldies" continues to be the industry term for 60's based pop gold formats, while "classic hits" is the designation for 70's based formats. That's the pair of terms used by Arbitron in its format name roster, and just about every other industry source from BIA to Billboard. They are separate formats.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

You guys hit it on the head concerning the lack of personalities on WLS FM. Mornings are certainly hurting the station right now.

In the PPM world, high profile morning shows on music stations are not doing anywhere near as well as they did in the diary era. WLS-FM's mornings perform pretty much at par with evenings, and are not abnormally low for music FMs... in fact, the ratio of mornings to middays is better than that of WDRV.

I love what The Drive is doing.

Right. See above.

Ignore you know who here. Except for on these boards, no one has ever heard of him. I've read his oldies ramblings for years.

Like WhoDat, you obviously have not clicked on the link below. But, ad hominems aside, pointing the finger at me really does not change the fact that WLS-FM only will improve its sales demo performance by continuing to cull the pre-70's material and adapting to PPM realities. That's not an insult to those who like the older music or the songs and artists themselves... just the reality of the business of radio.

 

[Whiplash]

Re: WLS FM.

I'm not talking about a personality like Mancow, or Stern. I'm talking about someone with name recognition, who can drive the morning show and flow of the music. Someone like Dick Biondi, Jeff Davis, etc.

Looked at your site, no idea who you are.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

I'm not talking about a personality like Mancow, or Stern. I'm talking about someone with name recognition, who can drive the morning show and flow of the music. Someone like Dick Biondi, Jeff Davis, etc.

And why would that be any better than what they have now? Event the "mostly music" morning shows, such as Seacrest's KIIS affair, have been cut back considerably. In the Seacrest case, an all-music jockless appraoch in the same format was winning last summer, and Seacrest was told to put a lid on it... and the numbers snapped back.

The other issue is the considerably lowered importance of mornings in the PPM world, which makes overindexing in that daypart not cost effective any more.

Looked at your site, no idea who you are.

Another ad hominem based on your own lack of knowledge of the industry still does not change the fact that WLS is still playing too much pre-70's stuff.

 

[8638]

Re: WLS FM.

if WLS-FM copies the CBS formula.....
agreed, but one thing i like about CBS-FM is They are playing the 70's and some 80's yes, but haven't forgotten the 60's! you will still hear an Elvis or Beatles from time to time... you get the feel that they are the not cheating the audience..Formula is Variety..and more importantly PERSONALITY WHEN wls-fm GETS THAT, they may be on their way to THE Formula...

EXACTLY! Nothing wrong with incorporating 80's songs 'consistent with the format,' but an occasional #1 pre-1964 doesn't kill anything, as CBS-FM readily proves. That station, and KRTH, really do a bang up job with oldies...er, Classic Hits. While I haven't done a song count or study, both of those stations, and sister WOGL in Philly seem to open the TOH with a 60's song frequently. David thinks this kills listenership; while I respect his industry experience, I don't agree. It is amazing that these songs possess the staying power they have, some 40 years later, but they do! People know these songs, even kids, from advertising, movies, etc. And who can tolerate a non stop diet of rap?

Kudos to the entire staff of CBS-FM! I think the current iteration is the best in the station's entire history, and, yes, I was a listener well before the switch to Solid Gold in 1972.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: WLS FM.

EXACTLY! Nothing wrong with incorporating 80's songs 'consistent with the format,' but an occasional #1 pre-1964 doesn't kill anything, as CBS-FM readily proves.

There are iconic songs that tanscend decades or barriers. There is nothing wrong with a really measured amount of them, particularly since they cement the image of uniqueness for a station such as what we are discussing, irrespective of the name we... or timebuyers... give it.

That station, and KRTH, really do a bang up job with oldies...er, Classic Hits.

But note how different each is. LA, due to its growth and radically different ethnic blend, does not allow all the same mid-60s stuff as NY does. We tend to see less of the "early years" flavor in markets that have grown a lot since the core music was in the current category.

While I haven't done a song count or study, both of those stations, and sister WOGL in Philly seem to open the TOH with a 60's song frequently.

The placement is likely more an homage to tradition than for any practical purpose. Unlike the diary, which forced "hourly thinking" the PPM has no real key minutes in the hour. But, if there is a feeling that the feature is warm and fuzzy for some listeners, there is no reason not to do this, either.

David thinks this kills listenership; while I respect his industry experience, I don't agree.

Playing songs your target listeners don't like kills listenership. If the under-55 appeal of the songs in question is not negative, and they give a "feel" to the station, what this comes down to is a programmer's artistic feel. The classic hits stations I'm involved with do play some 60's stuff, including some from the early 60's. The way it folds into the format is entirely based on the PD's feel when putting the log together.

And who can tolerate a non stop diet of rap?

I must get out more than you do. There are more people who like all hip hop than those who like all "oldies."

Kudos to the entire staff of CBS-FM! I think the current iteration is the best in the station's entire history, and, yes, I was a listener well before the switch to Solid Gold in 1972.

There is no doubt that CBS FM is a good station. They will have an ongoing battle to keep relevant to under-55's as the current audience ages, but it's a long time before they have to start playing MC Hammer.