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WMMS Winter ratings: Shocking, just shocking

Could the problem be that the rock format in Cleveland is oversaturated?

1. WNCX plays Classic Rock

2. WKRI plays Alternative

3. WMMS plays Active Rock

That's three stations playing a varied format of the same genre and Cleveland is not even a top 20 market. At most, two stations that play rock would be more than sufficient in the market.

I got to say that WMMS is an institution in the Cleveland market and it is an embarrassment that they are currently behind the top two that I listed in the ratings. I know it's only one book, but this trend can not continue over consecutive books. We all are aware of what would take place if the trend continued over, say a year. Then again if the trend does continue, then maybe it is a clear sign that WMMS needs to move on.
 
feeball said:
Could the problem be that the rock format in Cleveland is oversaturated?

1. WNCX plays Classic Rock

2. WKRI plays Alternative

3. WMMS plays Active Rock

That's three stations playing a varied format of the same genre and Cleveland is not even a top 20 market. At most, two stations that play rock would be more than sufficient in the market.
Exactly, but I wouldn't view it as saturated, IMO. All three are just more "focused" to the exact audience they are aiming for that the other rocker isn't. While WNCX is playing their branding of classic rock, 'MMS is playing the hair band classics and WKRI is playing their own "deeper" alternative gold tracks. Each gives their station their own unique sound. Of course, that dissection is going to show in the ratings, as those three are sharing among all of the rock listeners. It would be no different if we have 3 types of AC/Hot AC-ish stations. Oh wait... ;)

But, IF BY CHANCE WMMS was to flip formats (don't hold your breath), what could they flip to that has a proven track record in a market very similar to Cleveland/NE Ohio that is not already being done?

There ain't much out there.
 
FACTman said:
pbf1 said:
The diary system is already in the process of being replaced.
It's "been in the process" for many, many years and until it's completely replaced/overhauled, I'll put more value into them. The results, IMO, are not a "true showing" of who is/is not listening.

Do you honestly think that it's going to suddenly rebound as-is??
"Rebound" according to whom? The constant bashers of WMMS? Those who think you have to be #1 to be something? Please. Personally, I like the way they sound. Obviously their research tells them the same thing as Clear Channel wouldn't just "program anything" on a signal like WMMS.

We definitely do not need another alternative sounding station in this town similar to 92.3.


Pd's and talent, and even GM's, lose gigs to that dinosaur Arbitron. So yes, Arb is valid in that it costs people jobs, livlihood, and more.
 
VODood said:
Pd's and talent, and even GM's, lose gigs to that dinosaur Arbitron. So yes, Arb is valid in that it costs people jobs, livlihood, and more.


Never said it was fair or right, but it's the standard. (For now, anyway.)
 
Personally, I'd like to see the actual proof that WMMS had a 20 share in '84. I just don't believe it.

And why did every other AOR in America defend their positions against CHR stations w/o registering themselves as a CHR with the trades? Baloney. I say it's because WMMS was extremel reactionary against Gorman. Look what happened when NCX signed on - WMMS immediately added a ton of classic rock. AND I'd like to see proof that WMMS played Prince before anyone else in Cleveland. Don't know how you'd do that but ... I find that claim just doubtful.

WMMS should dump the call letters, start all over. They've been dead a long, long time.
 
When Betty Korvan was inducucted into the Radio/TV Hall Of Fame last fall, Denny Sanders did the honors. At one point, he produced a copy of a 1980s Arbitron book, and started quoting some of Betty's ratings, just to illustrate to the current generation just who this person was and how successful she was, in the days when few women were on the air. She had 11 and 12 shares 12+ and 25s 30s and 35 shares in 18-34. Later, I went over to the table and asked to see the ratings book. Denny said "sure" and handed it to me. Sure enough, WMMS had double figures across the board in 12+, and huge, huge shares in 18-34. 20s 30s. On Saturday night, they had a 40 share of 18-34. I saw the figures.

As far as other AORs not switching to CHR reporting in order to get credit for INXS, Prince, Tears For Fears, etc, it was probably due to the fact that most AORs were not playing that music to begin with. WMMS always broke new music (their trademark) had a pop-rhythm sensibility (Hall and Oats, AWB, Isley Brothers) even in the 1970s which set them apart from most AORs. They even used to play some occasional Motown and oldies. They were an unusual station and broke a lot of rules back then.

Don't know how I can answer the Prince question. Larry Bole is still at Warners in Cleveland after all these years. Why don't you call him and ask him. I am sure that he will tell you.

The split in 1986 among the staff happened pretty much for a reason that you alluded to: Malrite hired a national PD (their first) about 1985, and he wanted WMMS to become more of a typical AOR, regardless of the fact that the ratings were spectacular.
He wanted emphasis on Deep Purple, Foghat, and other hard-rock dinosaur bands. These bands were still being played by MMS in those days, but the national PD wanted NOTHING BUT this stuff, like what most AORs were doing nationally. However, most AORs were dying nationally in the ratings (I guess he never looked at ratings outside of Cleveland either). As soon as Gorman and Sanders and the others split to establish the original, new-music based WNCX, Malrite's national PD (as predicted) swooped down and pulled most new music, re-establishing Foghat block parties and other outdated features. The result was the station lost all the female and 25+ gains that it made over the past few years, and when WNCX switched to 100% classic rock several months later, they finished off WMMS in males. The station got caught in a classic "squeeze play", and Malrite's big shot national PD didn't have the sense to see it coming, unlike like most of the WMMS local staff.

By the way, this "squeezeplay" of AORs (CHR on one side, fulltime classic rock on the other) pretty much finished off legends like WNEW-FM, KSAN and KMET in the 1980s. These stations refused to embrace the newer, hipper more rhymic stuff, and found themselves unable to compete with fulltime classic rockers.

By the way, I agree with your statement about the call letters. WMMS has not been a leading station, in either ratings or programming innovation for many years. It is sad to hear this once-great station groping around with no clue, sounding as common as the rock station in Scranton.
 
VODood said:
Pd's and talent, and even GM's, lose gigs to that dinosaur Arbitron. So yes, Arb is valid in that it costs people jobs, livlihood, and more.
I know it's still valid, unfortunately, but I was stating MY personal views towards Archaic-tron.
 
HHH said:
When Betty Korvan was inducucted into the Radio/TV Hall Of Fame last fall, Denny Sanders did the honors. At one point, he produced a copy of a 1980s Arbitron book, and started quoting some of Betty's ratings, just to illustrate to the current generation just who this person was and how successful she was, in the days when few women were on the air. She had 11 and 12 shares 12+ and 25s 30s and 35 shares in 18-34. Later, I went over to the table and asked to see the ratings book. Denny said "sure" and handed it to me. Sure enough, WMMS had double figures across the board in 12+, and huge, huge shares in 18-34. 20s 30s. On Saturday night, they had a 40 share of 18-34. I saw the figures.


I don't doubt it. Then again I worked for both Sanders and Gorman.

To the younger ones on this board, radio was MUCH LESS fragmented than it is today. Oftern there was only one format per market. Radio was the only source for information outside of tv and newspapers. No internet, no cell phones, no texting, MTV didn't come along until 1982, no Much Music, radio was IT. And WMMS was THEE station for music, new and gold.

On top of that WMMS' marketing was like no other. Only one other station, IMO, competes with the WMMS of old in the promotions dept and that's WEBN. Marketing genius all.
 
VODood said:
HHH said:
When Betty Korvan was inducucted into the Radio/TV Hall Of Fame last fall, Denny Sanders did the honors. At one point, he produced a copy of a 1980s Arbitron book, and started quoting some of Betty's ratings, just to illustrate to the current generation just who this person was and how successful she was, in the days when few women were on the air. She had 11 and 12 shares 12+ and 25s 30s and 35 shares in 18-34. Later, I went over to the table and asked to see the ratings book. Denny said "sure" and handed it to me. Sure enough, WMMS had double figures across the board in 12+, and huge, huge shares in 18-34. 20s 30s. On Saturday night, they had a 40 share of 18-34. I saw the figures.




I don't doubt it. Then again I worked for both Sanders and Gorman.

To the younger ones on this board, radio was MUCH LESS fragmented than it is today. Oftern there was only one format per market. Radio was the only source for information outside of tv and newspapers. No internet, no cell phones, no texting, MTV didn't come along until 1982, no Much Music, radio was IT. And WMMS was THEE station for music, new and gold.

On top of that WMMS' marketing was like no other. Only one other station, IMO, competes with the WMMS of old in the promotions dept and that's WEBN. Marketing genius all.

Well thank you very much for the history lesson. Sounds like things were much simpler back then. Today its Classic Rock, Active Rock, Album Rock, Alternative Rock, CHR/Rock, Adult Album Alternative......its enough to make your freakin' head explode. I must say I enjoy listening to some of the west coast alternative stations....playing sets like Led Zepplin to Modest Mouse to Bob Marley to Tool.....drops all the genres and just plays good music!
 
jessejames44 said:
Just a quick, 2 cents thought...

If/when Cleveland goes to a people meter...WMMS might suffer. If you've ever taken a winner call from another station, you know people say "WMMS" as a gut reaction to "what station are you listening to." Used to happen at Majic all the time (it was either that or they'd say "M105"). Arbitron diaries often say "92.3, WMMS."

WMMS just kinda means "radio" in Cleveland. Folks who are still in the "70's coma," who still think steel is coming back and ask "where are Jeff and Flash," just write/say "WMMS." They have for decades. If the people meter finds out they're not ACTUALLY listening to WMMS (or maybe 3WE), the station could suffer. Just a hypothetical theory.

The Buzzard is the 2nd most recognizeable logo/character in NE Ohio (right behind Chief Wahoo), but I don't think anyone really knows what it stands for anymore.

"WMMS" and "The Buzzard" are just synonyms for "radio I like to listen to." Too bad that, for most, the synonym is not a reality.



This post reminds me of KLOL in Houston flipping. People grew up on it, loved it, but hadn't listened in years.
 
Exactly. People like the idea, symbolism, etc...but not the product.


as a side note, KLOL should be an all-comedy station. MMS should change the calls to WBRB, take a few years off, and see if anyone notices...
 
WMMS died the day they went alternative, and have never recovered since. There's been some good times here and there, but overall, it's failed now.

Forget the "business model" for a second. Wouldn't the best move be to kind of do what they did in the day when they were great? Regular coffee break concerts, free concerts, events, etc. were always, always great. It didn't even have to be great bands back then. I remember seeing Kim Mitchell as a Coffee Break Concert, and I still listen to the recording of it today from time to time. Additionally, there was always direct interaction with the station itself. How about taking requests and actually playing them during prime time moments instead of simply on specialty shows? Since they are playing a mix of old and new, would it really hurt anything to play the oddball Sammy Hagar song that is requested instead of "Rock Candy" or whatever overplayed hit from Van Hagar?

The reason so many people have abandoned stations like WMMS and gone on to embrace something mindless with no surprises like an Ipod is because if you are going to listen to something with no real personality, you might as well have a several thousand song playlist and zero 6 minute commercial breaks. Personally, I'll go for an extra oddball track from GnR or AC/DC than an extended ED commercial or another visit from Bob Serpentini.

No real news here, but the corporatization of radio has become it's death nail. I don't think I've listened to more than 10 minutes of WMMS in a row in 10 years now.
 
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