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Worst Moves In Cleveland Radio
- Thread starter CleveFan
- Start date
Worst moves:
WLTF letting Trapper Jack go.
WTAM picking up Jerry Springer.
WMMS firing Jeff & Flash (they still had double digit shares!)
Blowing up WGCL for the first incarnation of WNCX.
Z-Rock.
WMVX's lack for direction for 10 years.
Boom 107.3
WLTF letting Trapper Jack go.
WTAM picking up Jerry Springer.
WMMS firing Jeff & Flash (they still had double digit shares!)
Blowing up WGCL for the first incarnation of WNCX.
Z-Rock.
WMVX's lack for direction for 10 years.
Boom 107.3
berlin201 said:
You are correct. Emmis literally handed WAVA over to Salem on a silver platter.
In comparison, OmniAmerica's deal with Nationwide for WMMS and WMJI was for $43.5M (and a Nationwide station in Orlando). WHK went for only $6.5M.
re: Capulet and WMMS to CHR
WMMS didn't actually flip to CHR. It started to report to Billboard as a CHR to get product... to head G98 off at the pass. WMMS started playing Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" and other titles b/c it was a pop culture station as well as a rock. John Gorman outlines this in his book.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe WMMS' highest ratings were in '86... as a CHR reporter. I recall both Denny and John telling me that.
WMMS took a slide after Gorman, Denny, etc left. It sank to it's lowest, arguably, under Bob Neumann.
*I worked for both at WMJI and WMMS (NexGen). And later at WMMS under PD Tony "TNT" Tilford who now programs WTUE/Dayton. WMMS under Tony did very well as a mainstream rock.
As for Boom/V107-3. The format began on The Waves' HD 2 channel under Ric "Rocco" Bennett. Rocco is the PD.
WMMS didn't actually flip to CHR. It started to report to Billboard as a CHR to get product... to head G98 off at the pass. WMMS started playing Michael Jackson's "Billy Jean" and other titles b/c it was a pop culture station as well as a rock. John Gorman outlines this in his book.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe WMMS' highest ratings were in '86... as a CHR reporter. I recall both Denny and John telling me that.
WMMS took a slide after Gorman, Denny, etc left. It sank to it's lowest, arguably, under Bob Neumann.
*I worked for both at WMJI and WMMS (NexGen). And later at WMMS under PD Tony "TNT" Tilford who now programs WTUE/Dayton. WMMS under Tony did very well as a mainstream rock.
As for Boom/V107-3. The format began on The Waves' HD 2 channel under Ric "Rocco" Bennett. Rocco is the PD.
Remember, the whole thing started because Robert Conrad wanted to make sure WCLV always had a home, be it 95.5 or where ever else.
I've read countless articles that WCLV moved to ensure they would always be here. WCLV was owned by a private company were they not? It wasn't as if another broadcasting company held a gun to their head and said move off this tower. They took a payday. This whole "we needed to save the format" stuff makes me chuckle. If WCLV stayed on 95.5, they'd be as profitable as they were, (or comparable in this economy) if not more so because they would have remained on a frequency where fans of the music could actually hear them.
I was at an ad club event where Conrad launched into a "WCLV vs. the deep pockets of the major corporations" speech. It was quite laughable. Most of the room thought it was a well thought out presentation by a man with the biggest case of sellers remorse looking to pass the blame.
I've read countless articles that WCLV moved to ensure they would always be here. WCLV was owned by a private company were they not? It wasn't as if another broadcasting company held a gun to their head and said move off this tower. They took a payday. This whole "we needed to save the format" stuff makes me chuckle. If WCLV stayed on 95.5, they'd be as profitable as they were, (or comparable in this economy) if not more so because they would have remained on a frequency where fans of the music could actually hear them.
I was at an ad club event where Conrad launched into a "WCLV vs. the deep pockets of the major corporations" speech. It was quite laughable. Most of the room thought it was a well thought out presentation by a man with the biggest case of sellers remorse looking to pass the blame.
VODood said:
VoDood
Couple points here:
And Michael Jackson is a country artist!~ :
I think Milt had enough money to buy a few CDs for the air studio.~ :
The " to get product "explanation is laughable. (He could bought a whole Peaches store)! Not to be critical here, but it is, well, laughable.~ ;D
Since you " worked there " how long did it take Nationwide to flip WMMS from alternative back to mainstream rock when they bought it?
Finally, are you blaming Rocco for the mess in Elyria? So Gorman had nothing to do with Boom 107.3? Seems like he was all over the PD when they fllipped last year. BTW, What format do you think they will change to this year?
Capulet said:VODood said:
VoDood
Couple points here:
And Michael Jackson is a country artist!~ :
I think Milt had enough money to buy a few CDs for the air studio.~ :
explanation is laughable. (He could bought a whole Peaches store)! Not to be critical here, but it is, well, laughable.~ ;D
It is not "laughable" if you understand how the business worked back then.
Taking Prince as an example, as an "AOR" reporter, WMMS would not get to sponsor the Prince concert in Cleveland, because WEA would insist that the sponsorship went to the "CHR" station in town, WGCL, because Prince was categorized as a "CHR" act. WMMS would also have a hard time giving away tickets, and all of those tickets would say "G98 Presents". The sore point was that WMMS, as I recall, played "Little Red Corvette" before WGCL added it, but--as an "AOR" station--they couldn't list it in their industry playist to the trades, get credit in any way, or tie-in to anything from the record company. I guess, in return, WEA might offer WMMS the Foghat concert, or some other tired "AOR" act. But WMMS was always about being current, and this would make the station sound old and behind the times, especially frustrating when the staff was apparently excited about some new stuff and playing a lot of it.
Remember, as was said in the Gorman book, WMMS was never a typical AOR. They played The Ronettes, Motown, Average White Band, and all kinds of pop and/or R & B leaning stuff long before the whole AOR/CHR designation change in the early 80s.
Also remember that WMMS, at the time of adding Prince, Michael Jackson (with Eddie Van Halen playing on "Beat It"), Madonna, and other
new acts like that, the station DID NOT CUT ANY AOR TITLES. They just mixed and dayparted very carefully.
And yes, VO DOOD, WMMS had their highest ratings in the 1983-1986 period....often 13 and 14 shares 12+ with NO DETERIORATION TO 18-34 MEN, but additional WOMEN for the first time. By the way, contrary to myth, they never spiked big in teens even after the change. WGCL was still #1 12-17.
Anyway, this is all in the Gorman book which, by all accounts, is pretty accurate and a very fun read.
Capulet said:VODood said:
VoDood
Couple points here:
And Michael Jackson is a country artist!~ :
I think Milt had enough money to buy a few CDs for the air studio.~ :
explanation is laughable. (He could bought a whole Peaches store)! Not to be critical here, but it is, well, laughable.~ ;D
Since you " worked there " how long did it take Nationwide to flip WMMS from alternative back to mainstream rock when they bought it?
Finally, are you blaming Rocco for the mess in Elyria? So Gorman had nothing to do with Boom 107.3? Seems like he was all over the PD when they fllipped last year. BTW, What format do you think they will change to this year?
WMMS went back to mainstream rock in February 1997. That move was probably the worst-kept secret in Cleveland radio after Nationwide hired former WNCX PD Bob Newmann to replace Gorman a few months earlier (Gorman left in July 1996; Newmann was hired that October).
Truthfully, Milt never really cared that much for WMMS as a rock outlet. Most can directly correlate Carl Hirsch's tenure there as when the station really had the tools to succeed (and who was able to put any and all political fires out). Carl basically spearheaded WMMS' sponsorship rights to the big Michael Jackson/Jackson 5 concert at Muny Stadium, not only spurring WGCL and WZAK, but also irking many of his fellow higher-ups at Malrite who thought it wasn't worth it for a 'rock station'.
And if it wasn't for Carl's insistence, Malrite never would have purchased a small FM station out of Newark, moved the tx to the Empire State Building and relaunched it as WHTZ "Z100" - going 'from worst to first' in a single ratings book.
After Carl left in early 1985, WMMS began its' slow, gradual decline; the mass exodus of staffers to WNCX occurred a year later, then you had the 1988 Rolling Stone expose - and the following PR blunder, the instability of the PD chair for nearly two years, etc. IMO, Milt allowing him to flat-out leave Malrite was and still is the worst move in Cleveland radio history.
Belkin presented those concerts. They booked the band, rented the hall, bought advertising, sold the tickets, took the finacial risk. The radio stations in town played the records, which really is just an advertisment for the live concert coming to town.
( In te 80s a few stations across the country booked the acts and sold the tickets.. It did happen a few times. )
Reporting status in R&R had nothing to do with the audience.
Please leave my " understanding ' of the business out your future posts. I really don't care if you think I understand how the business works.
For someone to offer as an explanation that a radio statio executed a format change
to " get product " is laughable.
Reading the name of a radio a station on a concert ticket is hardly a reason for a listener to
choose what channel they listen to. Would it aid with diary recall? I doubt it. Concert goers look at tickets to see where their seat is. Listeners like the music a station plays.
CHR music is very cyclical. Michael Jackson and Prince and other artists that were played by Top 40 radio were on fire back then. WGCL beat WMMS because this music had more appeal than
what WMMS was playing. As I said, the audience could care less about what " reporting status " a station had in industry trade publications. . The record promotion machine on the other hand did !
HHH, Care to explain how much more money the labels paid for CHR adds?
http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Men-Brokers-Inside-Business/dp/0679730613
Read Hitmen. I think that book tells the real story.
( In te 80s a few stations across the country booked the acts and sold the tickets.. It did happen a few times. )
Reporting status in R&R had nothing to do with the audience.
Please leave my " understanding ' of the business out your future posts. I really don't care if you think I understand how the business works.
For someone to offer as an explanation that a radio statio executed a format change
to " get product " is laughable.
Reading the name of a radio a station on a concert ticket is hardly a reason for a listener to
choose what channel they listen to. Would it aid with diary recall? I doubt it. Concert goers look at tickets to see where their seat is. Listeners like the music a station plays.
CHR music is very cyclical. Michael Jackson and Prince and other artists that were played by Top 40 radio were on fire back then. WGCL beat WMMS because this music had more appeal than
what WMMS was playing. As I said, the audience could care less about what " reporting status " a station had in industry trade publications. . The record promotion machine on the other hand did !
HHH, Care to explain how much more money the labels paid for CHR adds?
http://www.amazon.com/Hit-Men-Brokers-Inside-Business/dp/0679730613
Read Hitmen. I think that book tells the real story.
John Baylor said:
If it was specifically just for a payday, WCLV would have gone the way of classical FMers in Philadelphia, Detroit, Miami, etc. and signed off for good. The deal was announced on October 30, 2000 - and was likely in the making for months beforehand. What obviously clinched the deal was CC's August 2000 acquisition of the Barnstable stations in Akron - WKDD/96.5 and WTOU/1350 - that gave WAKS it's new home (IIRC, that was part of a trade between CC and Barnstable so as to close the AMFM/CC merger).
Remember that the original plan was for WCLV to originate the classical music format on 1420AM, with the 104.9FM signal as a west-side relay. (It makes sense, as 1420AM - even after the transmitter site rebuild a few years back by Radio Seaway - puts an average to mediocre signal in Lorain County at night. Still better than 850's night pattern, but that ain't saying much.) 1420AM would still operate directly by Radio Seaway, while 104.9FM would be donated to the WCLV Foundation, and operated by Radio Seaway under a reverse LMA. It was a very good arrangement.
All that changed when Salem elected to sign off WRMR for good in the midst of a shuffling of their AM properties. The PR nightmare that followed resulted in Salem selling off the intellectual property of WRMR to Radio Seaway. But it happened so quickly that the pre-existing application to place the WCLV calls on 1420AM could not be changed - and a hasty pseudo-simulcast with WBKC/1460 in Painseville was then set up two weeks before the ownership swap took place.
If I have any qualms with Mr. Conrad, after signing off WRMR in July 2004, I would rather have flipped 1420 back to being the primary outlet for WCLV rather than sell it back to Salem.
To me, the the worst move in Cleveland radio was the allowed demise of WHK-1420 in the mid-90's. That sports station was exactly what this market needed, and needs again today. They made fun of the fat-cats "down the dial" who desparately needed it. If a similar station to WHK came out today, it would crush WKNR and all thier arrogance and distain and for their listeners.
The ironic thing is Rizzo of 1994 (who was a big part of that station then) would make fun of and laugh at Rizzo of 2011. He would poke fun at and goof on and expose him as the fraud he is today.
The other names and talent on that station remain true origionals. Dan McDowell, Les Levine, Pat McCabe, Ron Brinus, Mike Androsak, etc.... Many have gone on to bigger and better things in thier careers. It was a really unique group that had a great attitude and really shook up the sports talk/ talk world in the city then.
When they sold WHK and allowed that staff to dissipate and go away, that was the worst move I ever remember in Cleveland radio history.
The ironic thing is Rizzo of 1994 (who was a big part of that station then) would make fun of and laugh at Rizzo of 2011. He would poke fun at and goof on and expose him as the fraud he is today.
The other names and talent on that station remain true origionals. Dan McDowell, Les Levine, Pat McCabe, Ron Brinus, Mike Androsak, etc.... Many have gone on to bigger and better things in thier careers. It was a really unique group that had a great attitude and really shook up the sports talk/ talk world in the city then.
When they sold WHK and allowed that staff to dissipate and go away, that was the worst move I ever remember in Cleveland radio history.
Capulet said:
Wow. Where do I begin?
"For someone to offer as an explanation that a radio statio executed a format change
to " get product " is laughable. "
It was NOT a "format change". It was a reporting change to the trades. As I said in my previous post, (now listen) NO AOR TITLES WERE DROPPED FROM THE PLAYLIST. The station pretty much did what they always did...mixed in pop in a fun way to keep the station buoyant. I will repeat again (you don't seem to be listening, so pardon my repetition) WMMS always mixed in Motown, The Ronettes, The Shangri-Las, rock and R & B oldies, the latest releases from The Isley Brothers, Average White Band (they pretty much broke them in the midwest) and other very non-AOR moves. When the record business became more formalized, the labels started to divide up the acts more clearly along the lines of format promotion, tie-ins, etc. Essentially (now listen again) JUST ABOUT EVERY NEW ACT WAS DESIGNATED AS "CHR". Therefore, because of WMMS' reporting status as AOR, they were pretty much shut out from concert co-sponsorships, tie-ins, interviews, and a host of other important elements critical to their appeal when it came to just about every new act! The fact that you say "it does not matter who sponsors the show, blah blah blah" is ridiculous. It matters a lot when it comes to the marketing of a radio station, and solidifying an image of a station on top of the latest acts (which was a WMMS signature). Without this, they would be on the road to being a Classic Rock station. The staff did not want that, and Gorman, Carl, Sanders, Kid Leo and others were determined to protect the station's status as a CURRENT, UP-TO-DATE service.
Once again, read the Gorman book. As far as CHR "payoffs" go, I don't see any of the people that you mentioned (aside from the owners) retired in a big house in Beverly Hills sitting on stacks of money.
Regarding WMMS:
A lot of AOR stations blurred the lines between AOR and CHR in the 80's. Many AOR's played Duran Duran, Power Station, Men at Work, Devo, Tears for Fears, Depeche Mode, Flock of Seagulls, etc, etc. Michael Luczak was still doing it (to some degree) at WAZU in Dayton in 1989. Way before Luczak was at WAZU, 96Rock in Cincinnati played Michael Jackson and other CHR tunes... I wonder, was Randy Michaels consulting WMMS at the same time?
Worst Cleveland radio move? WIXY 1260 becoming WBBG. Hands down.
A lot of AOR stations blurred the lines between AOR and CHR in the 80's. Many AOR's played Duran Duran, Power Station, Men at Work, Devo, Tears for Fears, Depeche Mode, Flock of Seagulls, etc, etc. Michael Luczak was still doing it (to some degree) at WAZU in Dayton in 1989. Way before Luczak was at WAZU, 96Rock in Cincinnati played Michael Jackson and other CHR tunes... I wonder, was Randy Michaels consulting WMMS at the same time?
Worst Cleveland radio move? WIXY 1260 becoming WBBG. Hands down.
stereolane said:
In terms of "format flipping," WPLJ in New York (then-ABC Radio's FM flagship) did flip directly from AOR to CHR before WHTZ was launched, mostly in an attempt to undercut "Z100's" impact. In that case, WPLJ phased out their AOR titles in total, while WMMS never did. That's a big difference from being re-designated as a CHR only in trade papers.
WMMS flipped to AOR several months before Luczak arrived. At the time, the PD chair bounced back-and-forth between Brian Phillips and Rich Piombino... and Kid Leo departed to work for CBS Records. Maybe they had a consultant, but it probably was more due to internal micromanaging at the station level.
WIXY wouldn't have survived either way, because of the terrible signal pattern they had back then (it's even worse today, more so with suburban outgrowth and the obligatory IBOC hash). However, the fact that neither WIXY nor WGAR/1220 migrated their top 40 formats to the FM band was a bad move. Imagine the battle between those two outlets on FM against G98, M105 and WMMS! The competition would have been fierce.
Capulet said:HHH said:
I didn't mention anybody. ~ :
WMMS became a CHR for the reporting status which qualified them to be the reipients of independent promoter money. Thats a format flip with HUGE finacial implications.
Read Hitmen. Its all there.
If anyone would have "benefited," it was Milt Maltz. But WHTZ clearly would have been a bigger boon, simply because of being in New York and being an actual CHR.
And as been generally accepted today, Milt could have cared less about WMMS being a rock station. During it's glory days, he was hands-off while Hirsch, Thacker, Gorman and Sanders ran the place. But remember that he really wanted it to be a country outlet (that format went to WHK instead).
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