WPVI-FM-Why couldn't channel 6 do this?

[softmachine]

Not quite within the full power rules...plus they have 2 subchannels:

http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/newbay/tvt_20090624/#/36

 

[amfmsw]

Would that allow them to have competitive 102% modulation (110%mono?), or leave them at the old "quiet" levels?

 

[softmachine]

Would that allow them to have competitive 102% modulation (110%mono?), or leave them at the old "quiet" levels?

Not sure if WNYZ runs full modulation-if they are competing with other FMs, I imagine they are. Someone will chime in, I'm sure.

 

[DanStrassberg]

Unless WPVI has gotten a new authorization to run its DTV signal on some channel other than 6 (WPVI is one of the few TVs to be running DTV on a low-band VHF channel), turning Channel 6 into an FM (as has been done with Channel 6 LPTVs in New York and Chicago) would mean signing the TV off for good. Don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.

 

[w9wi]

Unless WPVI has gotten a new authorization to run its DTV signal on some channel other than 6 (WPVI is one of the few TVs to be running DTV on a low-band VHF channel), turning Channel 6 into an FM (as has been done with Channel 6 LPTVs in New York and Chicago) would mean signing the TV off for good. Don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.

I'm hearing reliable reports (Scott Fybush, in another thread) that Pulse 87 in New York is in fact operating a DTV transmitter on the same channel as their analog aural operation. (they do in fact hold a construction permit for a 300-watt DTV station on channel 6)

It is VERY difficult for me to imagine that working. The theory is solid (vertical polarization for the analog, horizontal for the digital) but essentially NOBODY is using a truly vertically-polarized antenna on their radio, nor a truly horizontally-polarized antenna on their TV. The consequences being massive interference between the two - a digital TV that almost nobody could receive, and an analog FM chock full of noise.

 

[nd2023]

I noticed digital "hash" on WNYZ from 82-88. The hash abruptly stops at 87.45 and Pulse 87 takes over from 87.5-88.0. The digital pilot is at 82.1.
I'm sure that the offset and the overmodulated (for TV) carrier on 87.7 will eat into the digital coverage. The analog coverage of WNYZ is the same as before in NYC, but greatly improved in central NJ. But that's OK for WNYZ, as it's only using its digital channel to tell viewers who stumble on it to listen to Pulse 87.7. Island Broadcasting, owner of WNYZ, could care less about what's on channel 6, as 87.7 brings in the dough. Not OK for WPVI, which uses its digital TV station for its intended purpose and already has signal problems. Sometimes it uses virtual channel 1-1, so Pulse 87's first on the radio and first on the TV!
WPVI, as a full power TV station, can't operate an 87.7 FM station intentionally. They would have to pay a lot in fees to the network to intentionally transmit the audio of the TV shows on 87.7, and it would not be profitable to do so, as Arbitron will not rate WPVI-FM. While there are many listeners who complained about the "loss of 87.7", the majority of viewers don't know that WPVI was on 87.7 as people normally don't look that low and some radios don't tune that low, and the 87.7 signal was worse than most Philly FMs. The only thing they could broadcast is the newscast. Would be cheaper to just pay to put the newscast on an HD2, then people might actually buy an HD radio for it. The commercials they could try to sell on 87.7 won't even pay the power bill. If 87.7 does happen in Philly, it would be better to lease it to the Mega Media Group and let Pulse 87 work its magic in Philly while splitting half the revenue between WPVI and Mega Media.
I hope that WPVI doesn't even think of resurrecting 87.7 in Philly, as I am enjoying the loss of WPVI on 87.7!

 

[aindik]

You are not allowed to operate an analog TV station after 6/12/09 unless it's low power. The only exception being "nite lite" stations broadcasting looped DTV transition information. They will go off the air in 7/12/09

 

[nd2023]

WNYZ is operating analog "Pulse 87" audio and digital video. According to reports I read somewhere, the DTV signal is color bars and a legal ID with a scrolling message telling viewers to tune to 87.7, the audio of the DTV is Pulse 87 at proper TV modulation. The digital signal probably can't be seen if you can't see That Big Blue Building in Queens, so it is relatively useless.
If, heaven forbid, WPVI broadcasts on 87.7, could WNYZ's 87.7 audio go non-directional to the southwest?
If the pilot of channel 6 is supposed to be at 82.3, and I heard a pilot at 82.1, that means it's offset -200khz.

 

[softmachine]

I noticed digital "hash" on WNYZ from 82-88. The hash abruptly stops at 87.45 and Pulse 87 takes over from 87.5-88.0. The digital pilot is at 82.1.
I'm sure that the offset and the overmodulated (for TV) carrier on 87.7 will eat into the digital coverage. The analog coverage of WNYZ is the same as before in NYC, but greatly improved in central NJ. But that's OK for WNYZ, as it's only using its digital channel to tell viewers who stumble on it to listen to Pulse 87.7. Island Broadcasting, owner of WNYZ, could care less about what's on channel 6, as 87.7 brings in the dough. Not OK for WPVI, which uses its digital TV station for its intended purpose and already has signal problems. Sometimes it uses virtual channel 1-1, so Pulse 87's first on the radio and first on the TV!
WPVI, as a full power TV station, can't operate an 87.7 FM station intentionally. They would have to pay a lot in fees to the network to intentionally transmit the audio of the TV shows on 87.7, and it would not be profitable to do so, as Arbitron will not rate WPVI-FM. While there are many listeners who complained about the "loss of 87.7", the majority of viewers don't know that WPVI was on 87.7 as people normally don't look that low and some radios don't tune that low, and the 87.7 signal was worse than most Philly FMs. The only thing they could broadcast is the newscast. Would be cheaper to just pay to put the newscast on an HD2, then people might actually buy an HD radio for it. The commercials they could try to sell on 87.7 won't even pay the power bill. If 87.7 does happen in Philly, it would be better to lease it to the Mega Media Group and let Pulse 87 work its magic in Philly while splitting half the revenue between WPVI and Mega Media.
I hope that WPVI doesn't even think of resurrecting 87.7 in Philly, as I am enjoying the loss of WPVI on 87.7!

WPVI is a Disney O&O-which may mitigate any fee situation-since the 87.7mHz signal (which they did advertise, and some commuters did use) was a by-product of the Analog setup anyway.

The 87.7 was listenable in my home in Monmouth county, albeit at about 40% modulation of 'normal' FM. I didn't get WMMR unless there was ducting. How many miles is that? You evidence this yourself with improved WNYZ listening. They were solid on FM in Philly with the right radios. Of course, there's nothing to justify serving anything more than the current digital OTA, Philly/Suburbs/Southern NJ audience.

I like the way you follow up 'facts' about power consumption with the dance music station reverie (which you undermine with your explanations). Give me some facts and figures on the power-now that WPVI is at less than half (give or take) the power with the ATSC transmission scheme than with the NTSC. Do you think WPVI's power consumption-if they were somehow able to squeeze this signal in with no ill effects to anyone's transmission-would still be much less than it was using full NTSC Analog?

Long story short: No magic box to make this happen. The box above will kill HD quality the main channel, and make the .2 and .3 look like a 1999 internet .avi stream.

 

[softmachine]

Unless WPVI has gotten a new authorization to run its DTV signal on some channel other than 6 (WPVI is one of the few TVs to be running DTV on a low-band VHF channel), turning Channel 6 into an FM (as has been done with Channel 6 LPTVs in New York and Chicago) would mean signing the TV off for good. Don't think that's gonna happen anytime soon.

HD is not possible under this scheme, unless there is a radical change in the algorithm. WPVI could've relocated to UHF, and Channel 6 proper allocated for 'Experimental' or other use, including the 87.7 Analog/DTV non simulcast. A new version of 'local access'? (yeah, I know: who's in fantasyland now? )

Better off as more FM.

 

[qtpieislit]

I noticed digital "hash" on WNYZ from 82-88. The hash abruptly stops at 87.45 and Pulse 87 takes over from 87.5-88.0. The digital pilot is at 82.1.
I'm sure that the offset and the overmodulated (for TV) carrier on 87.7 will eat into the digital coverage. The analog coverage of WNYZ is the same as before in NYC, but greatly improved in central NJ. But that's OK for WNYZ, as it's only using its digital channel to tell viewers who stumble on it to listen to Pulse 87.7. Island Broadcasting, owner of WNYZ, could care less about what's on channel 6, as 87.7 brings in the dough. Not OK for WPVI, which uses its digital TV station for its intended purpose and already has signal problems. Sometimes it uses virtual channel 1-1, so Pulse 87's first on the radio and first on the TV!
WPVI, as a full power TV station, can't operate an 87.7 FM station intentionally. They would have to pay a lot in fees to the network to intentionally transmit the audio of the TV shows on 87.7, and it would not be profitable to do so, as Arbitron will not rate WPVI-FM. While there are many listeners who complained about the "loss of 87.7", the majority of viewers don't know that WPVI was on 87.7 as people normally don't look that low and some radios don't tune that low, and the 87.7 signal was worse than most Philly FMs. The only thing they could broadcast is the newscast. Would be cheaper to just pay to put the newscast on an HD2, then people might actually buy an HD radio for it. The commercials they could try to sell on 87.7 won't even pay the power bill. If 87.7 does happen in Philly, it would be better to lease it to the Mega Media Group and let Pulse 87 work its magic in Philly while splitting half the revenue between WPVI and Mega Media.
I hope that WPVI doesn't even think of resurrecting 87.7 in Philly, as I am enjoying the loss of WPVI on 87.7!

I think I just walked into the twilight zone. Without the twilight.

 

[nd2023]

Would the loss of 500 mHz of spectrum really degrade the quality of WPVI so bad?
As it is now, I notice artifacts on 6.2 and 6.3, 6.1 is crystal clear in HD

 

[imhomerjay]

I noticed digital "hash" on WNYZ from 82-88. The hash abruptly stops at 87.45 and Pulse 87 takes over from 87.5-88.0. The digital pilot is at 82.1.
I'm sure that the offset and the overmodulated (for TV) carrier on 87.7 will eat into the digital coverage. The analog coverage of WNYZ is the same as before in NYC, but greatly improved in central NJ. But that's OK for WNYZ, as it's only using its digital channel to tell viewers who stumble on it to listen to Pulse 87.7. Island Broadcasting, owner of WNYZ, could care less about what's on channel 6, as 87.7 brings in the dough. Not OK for WPVI, which uses its digital TV station for its intended purpose and already has signal problems. Sometimes it uses virtual channel 1-1, so Pulse 87's first on the radio and first on the TV!
WPVI, as a full power TV station, can't operate an 87.7 FM station intentionally. They would have to pay a lot in fees to the network to intentionally transmit the audio of the TV shows on 87.7, and it would not be profitable to do so, as Arbitron will not rate WPVI-FM. While there are many listeners who complained about the "loss of 87.7", the majority of viewers don't know that WPVI was on 87.7 as people normally don't look that low and some radios don't tune that low, and the 87.7 signal was worse than most Philly FMs. The only thing they could broadcast is the newscast. Would be cheaper to just pay to put the newscast on an HD2, then people might actually buy an HD radio for it. The commercials they could try to sell on 87.7 won't even pay the power bill. If 87.7 does happen in Philly, it would be better to lease it to the Mega Media Group and let Pulse 87 work its magic in Philly while splitting half the revenue between WPVI and Mega Media.
I hope that WPVI doesn't even think of resurrecting 87.7 in Philly, as I am enjoying the loss of WPVI on 87.7!

WPVI-FM? Uh, sure.

 

[w9wi]

Would the loss of 500 mHz of spectrum really degrade the quality of WPVI so bad?
As it is now, I notice artifacts on 6.2 and 6.3, 6.1 is crystal clear in HD

I think you mean 500KHz..

DTV transmission requires the entire 6MHz channel. You could change the modulation parameters to make it fit in 5.5MHz but no receiver would be able to receive it.

 

[nd2023]

Would the loss of 500 mHz of spectrum really degrade the quality of WPVI so bad?
As it is now, I notice artifacts on 6.2 and 6.3, 6.1 is crystal clear in HD

I think you mean 500KHz..

DTV transmission requires the entire 6MHz channel. You could change the modulation parameters to make it fit in 5.5MHz but no receiver would be able to receive it.

WNYZ showed that it can be done, and people have received WNYZ on their digital TV

 

[aindik]

Would the loss of 500 mHz of spectrum really degrade the quality of WPVI so bad?
As it is now, I notice artifacts on 6.2 and 6.3, 6.1 is crystal clear in HD

HD on 6.1 has been pretty bad for a month or two now. WPVI and the other ABC O&Os are trying to squeeze two 720p HD streams onto one channel: 6.1 and the new "Live Well" network on 6.2. The result is really bad PQ on both. Watching the NBA on ABC versus the NBA on ESPN was like night and day.

My recordings of hour-long ABC shows went from 6 GB a couple of months ago to 4 GB now. Bit-starved.

 

[softmachine]

Would the loss of 500 mHz of spectrum really degrade the quality of WPVI so bad?
As it is now, I notice artifacts on 6.2 and 6.3, 6.1 is crystal clear in HD

HD on 6.1 has been pretty bad for a month or two now. WPVI and the other ABC O&Os are trying to squeeze two 720p HD streams onto one channel: 6.1 and the new "Live Well" network on 6.2. The result is really bad PQ on both. Watching the NBA on ABC versus the NBA on ESPN was like night and day.

My recordings of hour-long ABC shows went from 6 GB a couple of months ago to 4 GB now. Bit-starved.

What record setup are you using?

Two HD channels-I don't notice the degradation of the signal on my OTA/analog setup-but my understanding is that 1 HD with 1 subchannel is not good, and this is why Fox and CBS stations offer no .2s, even.

 

[nd2023]

WPVI wants to maximize revenue first, then serve the public. Operating the 87.7 transmitter, paying the license fees to simulcast TV shows, and the loss of viewers due to worse picture and reception quality ain't cheap. 87.7 FM wouldn't generate any revenue because they can't put the TV commercials on the radio without permission, and radio advertisers wouldn't advertise on a station without proof of listeners (Arbitron ratings). They would rather operate a radio station (any format) on 87.7 than a TV simulcast, as that would generate revenue. But it will take a long time to turn a profit, if it can ever do so, with 87.7. It took Mega Media over a year to reduce its losses almost to the point of turning a profit, and its expenses are less than WPVI's potential expense. The FCC may not even allow anything on 87.7 besides a 100% simulcast of channel 6 (WNYZ-DT's audio is Pulse 87). They would rather not operate 87.7, as there is no benefit to them. All the 87.7 listeners have removed it from their presets and found an alternative.
Bottom line, I will expect to enjoy my improved Pulse 87 reception in central NJ because it's uneconomical for WPVI to operate 87.7. If you miss your Action News and Jeopardy, that's what DVRs are for. 6ABC should make podcasts of the news, that will cost almost nothing and they could sell ads on the podcast.
I have nothing against WPVI, I just never listened to WPVI on 87.7 before February 11, 2008, and after Pulse launched I hated the interference from WPVI, and now I'm enjoying driving around, windows down, blasting 87.7. The fact that I won 2 contests after June 12 on Pulse 87 during my commute also strengthens my loyalty to Pulse.

 

[aindik]

What record setup are you using?

TiVoHD.

Two HD channels-I don't notice the degradation of the signal on my OTA/analog setup-but my understanding is that 1 HD with 1 subchannel is not good, and this is why Fox and CBS stations offer no .2s, even.

ABC thinks they can get away with it because they use 720p, because they think fewer bits are required for 720p than 1080i. But they can't. Comparing apples to apples: Fox looks better than ABC and CBS looks better than NBC. Maybe they don't care.

 

[softmachine]

WPVI wants to maximize revenue first, then serve the public. Operating the 87.7 transmitter, paying the license fees to simulcast TV shows, and the loss of viewers due to worse picture and reception quality ain't cheap.

Gimme some figures.

How 'uncheap' are they?

87.7 FM wouldn't generate any revenue because they can't put the TV commercials on the radio without permission, and radio advertisers wouldn't advertise on a station without proof of listeners (Arbitron ratings).

Really? Where is that written?

They would rather operate a radio station (any format) on 87.7 than a TV simulcast, as that would generate revenue. But it will take a long time to turn a profit, if it can ever do so, with 87.7. It took Mega Media over a year to reduce its losses almost to the point of turning a profit, and its expenses are less than WPVI's potential expense. The FCC may not even allow anything on 87.7 besides a 100% simulcast of channel 6 (WNYZ-DT's audio is Pulse 87). They would rather not operate 87.7, as there is no benefit to them. All the 87.7 listeners have removed it from their presets and found an alternative.

I love this speculation on a hypothetical.

Bottom line, I will expect to enjoy my improved Pulse 87 reception in central NJ because it's uneconomical for WPVI to operate 87.7. If you miss your Action News and Jeopardy, that's what DVRs are for. 6ABC should make podcasts of the news, that will cost almost nothing and they could sell ads on the podcast.

How much is 'almost nothing'?

I have nothing against WPVI, I just never listened to WPVI on 87.7 before February 11, 2008, and after Pulse launched I hated the interference from WPVI, and now I'm enjoying driving around, windows down, blasting 87.7. The fact that I won 2 contests after June 12 on Pulse 87 during my commute also strengthens my loyalty to Pulse.

So we can add 'contest winning to 'obtuse' and 'pedantic'.