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WXLK Roanoke and WKRR Greensboro on same frequency...BUT HOW?!?!

N

nocece

How do they get away with this one?

They're both Class C on 92.3, and in markets that are almost adjacent to each other. (I'm assuming both stations still target the same markets that they did a few years ago.)

If I'm figuring this correctly, the overlap of the predicted 60 dBu contours of the two stations includes about 13 counties. The overlap even includes downtown Winston-Salem, so WKRR has to battle it out with WXLK in one of the major cities in its own market.

How does this comply with the short-spacing rules? I don't see how it can.

(I'm pretty sure WXLK's tower is on Poor Mountain, while WKRR's is a few miles south of Greensboro.)

This is even worse than the 92.9 stations in Lexington and Dayton jamming each other out in Cincinnati.
 
> If I'm figuring this correctly, the overlap of the predicted
> 60 dBu contours of the two stations includes about 13
> counties. The overlap even includes downtown Winston-Salem,
> so WKRR has to battle it out with WXLK in one of the major
> cities in its own market.

There is no 60dbu overlap according to the fcc.gov maps. Both 92.3's are directional so the Roanoke signal 60dbu stops at Martinsville while the Asheboro signal stops about at Reidsville. Both 92.3's appear to put their full signal out to the east and west of their sticks with the signal pulled in to the north and south.


>
> How does this comply with the short-spacing rules? I don't
> see how it can.

By using directional protection measures. They are 136km short-spaced but I would say grandfathering is also in play

>
> (I'm pretty sure WXLK's tower is on Poor Mountain, while
> WKRR's is a few miles south of Greensboro.)
actually a few miles north of Asheboro
 
Re: WXLK/Roanoke and WKRR/Greensboro on same frequency?!?!

These maps are pretty close to FCC maps. Even though the 60dBu line might not overlap, there's definitely a signal battle along the Virginia/North Carolina border. I'm sure neither station cares about that...

WKRR_FM_LU.gif


WXLK_FM_LU.gif
 
> How do they get away with this one?

I wholeheartedly agree--but later in this post it's explained. But when one compares all the signals that one can receive from the Greensboro market while heading up I-81 from Wytheville to north of Roanoke--and vice versa for the Roanoke area signals propagating south to Greensboro, you wonder about the FCHs at the FCC that allowed it. Similar to the thread in on the Charlotte board about short-spacing issues.

(And while I probably shouldn't elaborate too much on the acronym "FCH", the first word is "friggin'" and the last is "head".)
 
> > How do they get away with this one?
>
> I wholeheartedly agree--but later in this post it's
> explained. But when one compares all the signals that one
> can receive from the Greensboro market while heading up I-81
> from Wytheville to north of Roanoke--and vice versa for the
> Roanoke area signals propagating south to Greensboro, you
> wonder about the FCHs at the FCC that allowed it. Similar to
> the thread in on the Charlotte board about short-spacing
> issues.
>
> (And while I probably shouldn't elaborate too much on the
> acronym "FCH", the first word is "friggin'" and the last is
> "head".)
>

While I do agree about the "FCH" thing, I think everybody doesn't understand that both the 92.3's were on the air before the modern class/spacing rules came into effect in 1962. While I wasn't there to witness it, I do believe 92.3 was actually in the Roanoke Valley pumping out 100kW before moving to Poor Mountain in the 70's.

WKRR, I think, has always been 100kW, but was probably on a shorter stick.

So at the time, they probably had very little interference with each other. The 92.3 signals probably petered out around Rocky Mount and Greensboro, respectively.

Makes me think of 97.5 in Charlottesville and South Boston/Raleigh. There's a 15 mile seam between the two that basically is a mix of Rock and Rap...

...though it is kinda funny, going from Judas Priest to Snoop D-O-double-gizzle intermittently.

Radio-X...dedicating post 360 to the best tool any radio person can have: Shortcut's 360 system!<P ID="signature">______________
Formerly shocking, rocking, and angering the R-I community as radiodxrichmond!</P>
 
Re: WXLK/Roanoke and WKRR/Greensboro on same frequency?!?!

> These maps are pretty close to FCC maps. Even though the
> 60dBu line might not overlap, there's definitely a signal
> battle along the Virginia/North Carolina border. I'm sure
> neither station cares about that...
>
I'm sure both stations care very much about their signal issues between G'boro and Roanoke. I have made the trip between the two cities many, many times, and being a K-92 fan, am familiar with reception issues there. Usually, WKRR starts to cut out just about the Guilford/Rockingham CO. line----an area which is seeing much suburban growth. By the state line---WXLK starts to win out, but remains scrachy throughout Henry (Martinsville) Co. THe interesting thing is radio listenership in both Martinsville and Danville is very much up for grabs. Martinsville has WROV-FM, which is really a Roanoke/Lynchburg station, and Danville has a powerful country station--otherwise listeners go to the Triad or Roanoke for their radio. Some of the Triad FMs have a surprising number of advertisers from Martinsville and Danville. And I have heard WXLK do a number of commercial remotes from Martinsville, despite their signal problems there. Call-ins from Martinsville and Danville are fairly common on WXLK and other FMs from both markets. Regarding WKRR, I have noticed that their signal does not seem as robust in Winston Salem or Greensboro as the other major FMs. I would bet that under the right weather conditions, WXLK could really knock WKRR for a loop, even within those two cities. Still, I don't think WKRR/WXLK can beat the battle between WKQR/104.7 in Charlotte and WNOK/104.7 in Columbia---now that's shortspacing.
 
> doesn't understand that both the 92.3's were on the air
> before the modern class/spacing rules came into effect in
> 1962. While I wasn't there to witness it, I do believe 92.3
> was actually in the Roanoke Valley pumping out 100kW before
> moving to Poor Mountain in the 70's.
92.3 was on the air in the Roanoke Valey for many years before moving to Poor Mountain and becoming K-92. But it's earlier existance was far from 100K---I think it was more like 2K, from a very short stick on the floor of the valley (maybe about 150 ft.)---I remember seeing the tower somewhere north of the airport. Believe me, the signal did not get out of Roanoke Co. under any circumstances.
> WKRR, I think, has always been 100kW, but was probably on a
> shorter stick.
I don't think it was 100K--at the time 92.3 simucasted 1260 AM and was completely nonconsequential---maybe 3K and no listeners.
>
> So at the time, they probably had very little interference
> with each other. The 92.3 signals probably petered out
> around Rocky Mount and Greensboro, respectively.
>
> Makes me think of 97.5 in Charlottesville and South
> Boston/Raleigh. There's a 15 mile seam between the two that
> basically is a mix of Rock and Rap...
> Thats another good example of short spacing---though WWWV is only 50K. WQOK seems to win that war with surprisingly good reception in Lynchburg and sometimes even in Roanoke. WQOK almost always shows up in the Roanoke/Lynchburg ratings!!!!
> ...though it is kinda funny, going from Judas Priest to
> Snoop D-O-double-gizzle intermittently.
>
> Radio-X...dedicating post 360 to the best tool any radio
> person can have: Shortcut's 360 system!
>
 
WKRR History in Asheboro - Level Cross site

I have heard of the WKRR tower site from an engineer friend, though I'm not familiar with the area. It's at Level Cross, right? Is this a tower farm?
What other FMs are at this site? Also, what's WKRR's history? It was an Asheboro station(and still licensed to)...when did its "presence" move out of Asheboro?
 
Re: WXLK/Roanoke and WKRR/Greensboro on same frequency?!?!

> THe interesting thing
> is radio listenership in both Martinsville and Danville is
> very much up for grabs. Martinsville has WROV-FM, which is
> really a Roanoke/Lynchburg station, and Danville has a
> powerful country station--otherwise listeners go to the
> Triad or Roanoke for their radio.

Of course, there is a fairly popular local country station, a recent 80/90 drop-in on 99.9 FM (WZBB/Stanleytown). Given the economy in that region, there's not much else...there's the talk AM at 900, I believe (WCBX/Bassett) and that's about it.

-OA<P ID="signature">______________
Ohio Media Watch - <a target="_blank" href=http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com>http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com</a></P>
 
Re: WXLK/Roanoke and WKRR/Greensboro on same frequency?!?!

> Of course, there is a fairly popular local country station,
> a recent 80/90 drop-in on 99.9 FM (WZBB/Stanleytown). Given
> the economy in that region, there's not much else...there's
> the talk AM at 900, I believe (WCBX/Bassett) and that's
> about it.
>
> -OA
>

Speaking of WZBB...am I the only one that thinks they sound mighty good for a small market country station?

By the way, could they move any closer to Roanoke? Would they? They already put in a decent signal in the valley from what I recall

Radio-X<P ID="signature">______________
Formerly shocking, rocking, and angering the R-I community as radiodxrichmond!</P>
 
Re: WKRR History in Asheboro - Level Cross site

> I have heard of the WKRR tower site from an engineer friend,
> though I'm not familiar with the area. It's at Level Cross,
> right?

Correct!

> Is this a tower farm?

I think it's solely WKRR's site.

> What's WKRR's history? It was an Asheboro station(and still
> licensed to)...when did its "presence" move out of Asheboro?

I don't know all of the history, but it started out as WGWR-FM, simulcasting Asheboro sister station WGWR's block programming.

It was in the early 70's when they boosted the station's power to (I think) 50,000 watts, separated programming from WGWR, took on the call letters WCSE and played country music.

During this time, much of the station's income came from its affiliation with Raleigh's Capitol Broadcasting Company. WCSE's subcarrier was used to relay Capitol's background music format, and the station's main channel was the central NC relay station for the North Carolina News Network, another service of CBC. The station would ALWAYS use an instrumental up to network news at :55, at XX:54:57 a relay would take the station's board dead for 3 seconds and then switch to a receiver set on WRAL in Raleigh for the network news. It would do the reverse after the news and then put the station's board back on the air. I well remember hearing the WCSE ID coming across stations that took the NCNN feed from them, before some slack board operator would get back from the can.

In the early-80's (I'm thinking 1982) when they went 100K, moved the studios to the triad and adopted an AOR format. At the time, WKZL was AOR. WKRR trounced them, bought them and changed the format...then moved WKRR's studios into WKZL's digs.

Perhaps someone else can refine my dates a bit...stuff from the 70's is getting a bit fuzzy for me.

Later...
Matt Smith, Station Manager
WGSR-TV "Star-39"
Reidsville, NC
 
WZBB

> Speaking of WZBB...am I the only one that thinks they sound
> mighty good for a small market country station?

Country really isn't my format, but they always sounded pretty good whenever I heard them.

> By the way, could they move any closer to Roanoke? Would
> they? They already put in a decent signal in the valley from
> what I recall

Hmm, let's see what could get in the way...among other things, WVBE/100.1 on first adjacent up in Lynchburg would be a problem.

Their signal seems perfectly sited to serve both Martinsville and Rocky Mount, and the studios are literally halfway between the two areas on U.S. 220 at the Franklin/Henry County line. (And oddly enough, WZBB is almost directly across the road from the scene of one of the area's major crimes in recent years, the Short family house.)

I don't think they'd be interested in moving north.

-OA<P ID="signature">______________
Ohio Media Watch - <a target="_blank" href=http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com>http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com</a></P>
 
> > If I'm figuring this correctly, the overlap of the
> predicted
> > 60 dBu contours of the two stations includes about 13
> > counties. The overlap even includes downtown
> Winston-Salem,
> > so WKRR has to battle it out with WXLK in one of the major
>
> > cities in its own market.
>
> There is no 60dbu overlap according to the fcc.gov maps.
> Both 92.3's are directional so the Roanoke signal 60dbu
> stops at Martinsville while the Asheboro signal stops about
> at Reidsville. Both 92.3's appear to put their full signal
> out to the east and west of their sticks with the signal
> pulled in to the north and south.
>
>
> >
> > How does this comply with the short-spacing rules? I don't
>
> > see how it can.
>
> By using directional protection measures. They are 136km
> short-spaced but I would say grandfathering is also in play
>
> >
> > (I'm pretty sure WXLK's tower is on Poor Mountain, while
> > WKRR's is a few miles south of Greensboro.)
> actually a few miles north of Asheboro
>

I'll also add that stations can agree to accept each other's inteference. In a non-directional situation, instead of a weaker signal in all directions, both stations agree to accept each other's interference in the Martinsville area. Then, both stations can increase power and cover better areas better by sacrificing one area. I don't know if this came into play here, but it's a possability why two stations 'overlap' on coverage.

-Dave Hodges
 
Re: WZBB

You're right, they actually moved south from their original location in Rocky Mount, VA. There are enough country stations in the Roanoke/Lynchburg market.

By the way, I used to work for WZBB...well actually it was their old AM station, 1290 WNLB, when they used to be in Rocky Mount, VA. I started there right after they signed on the FM in 1989. At the time, the AM was country and the FM was AC. After I left, they eventually moved the country format to the FM when they made the move from Rocky Mount down closer to Martinsville. They made the move to fill the FM hole in Martinsville when the old WMVA-FM moved to Roanoke as WROV. As a matter of fact, WYTI in Rocky Mount took over WNLB/WZBB's old studios and tower after WZBB made the move south.

It's no surprise that folks say WZBB is a good sounding station because they're owned by good people and Glenn Lynch is one of the finest broadcasters I've ever worked with.


> > Speaking of WZBB...am I the only one that thinks they
> sound
> > mighty good for a small market country station?
>
> Country really isn't my format, but they always sounded
> pretty good whenever I heard them.
>
> > By the way, could they move any closer to Roanoke? Would
> > they? They already put in a decent signal in the valley
> from
> > what I recall
>
> Hmm, let's see what could get in the way...among other
> things, WVBE/100.1 on first adjacent up in Lynchburg would
> be a problem.
>
> Their signal seems perfectly sited to serve both
> Martinsville and Rocky Mount, and the studios are literally
> halfway between the two areas on U.S. 220 at the
> Franklin/Henry County line. (And oddly enough, WZBB is
> almost directly across the road from the scene of one of the
> area's major crimes in recent years, the Short family
> house.)
>
> I don't think they'd be interested in moving north.
>
> -OA
>
 
> 1962. While I wasn't there to witness it, I do believe 92.3
> was actually in the Roanoke Valley pumping out 100kW before
> moving to Poor Mountain in the 70's.

K's pumping out 93 kW from Poor right now. They still throw a nearly city grade signal over High Point, as does just about everything from Poor.

You can hear WXLK trash up the stereo diff. on WKRR from about mid-Greensboro north, and then you lose WKRR to the capture effect midway into Rockingham County on 220.

This past summer, WKRR went off the air during the middle of the day, and I picked up WXLK in my house in northern HP, with a full-quieting signal, and it had RDS in my car.

What I want to know is how Wheeler managed to keep the 100k on K92, especially since they just replaced the antenna a few months ago.

Also, rumor has it that the idea has been kicked around to multiplex the FMs on Poor onto a common stick...wonder how WSLQ would fare with it's whole 200k Grandfathering, as well as WXLK and its shortspacing.
 
Re: WXLK/Roanoke and WKRR/Greensboro on same frequency?!?!

Really, the only local FM competition for WZBB I can remember is Danville's WAKG, but Danville is far enough away from Martinsville and Rocky Mount that I don't think there's much advertiser overlap. I remember WAKG being a pretty decent sounding station.

For all intents and purposes, WROV is a Roanoke station now and I don't remember them really marketing Martinsville when the old WMVA frequency moved to Roanoke.

I'm sure that much of the radio listening in the area is geared toward Roanoke or the Triad, but much of the advertisers in the region can't afford the advertising rates in Roanoke or the Triad, so stations like WZBB or WAKG can fill that gap.



> > THe interesting thing
> > is radio listenership in both Martinsville and Danville is
>
> > very much up for grabs. Martinsville has WROV-FM, which
> is
> > really a Roanoke/Lynchburg station, and Danville has a
> > powerful country station--otherwise listeners go to the
> > Triad or Roanoke for their radio.
>
> Of course, there is a fairly popular local country station,
> a recent 80/90 drop-in on 99.9 FM (WZBB/Stanleytown). Given
> the economy in that region, there's not much else...there's
> the talk AM at 900, I believe (WCBX/Bassett) and that's
> about it.
>
> -OA
>
 
> Also, rumor has it that the idea has been kicked around to
> multiplex the FMs on Poor onto a common stick...wonder how
> WSLQ would fare with it's whole 200k Grandfathering, as well
> as WXLK and its shortspacing.
>

Well, it's about time. Three of those towers are about 30 years old and probably need to be retired.

As for the multiplex thing, not a bad idea, but how will 92.3 stay directional without killing the other station's signals?

Radio-X<P ID="signature">______________
Formerly shocking, rocking, and angering the R-I community as radiodxrichmond!</P>
 
WNLB/1290?

> It's no surprise that folks say WZBB is a good sounding
> station because they're owned by good people and Glenn Lynch
> is one of the finest broadcasters I've ever worked with.

It certainly seemed better sounding than you'd expect in a micro-market that size.

When did 1290/Rocky Mount go dark? I find some web search hits for them, but can't find anything recent. There's this RECnet return that shows the last license renewal in 1996:

<a target="_blank" href=http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=73339>http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=73339</a>

It certainly wasn't on the air when I first entered the market (2003).

-OA<P ID="signature">______________
Ohio Media Watch - <a target="_blank" href=http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com>http://ohiomedia.blogspot.com</a></P>
 
Re: WNLB/1290?

The history may be a bit sketchy here, since I moved away from Southwestern Virginia in '92, but it was around '92 when WZBB moved the country from the AM to the FM and they put a satellite oldies format on 1290 and changed the calls to WFYN. I don't remember the year they moved the studios from Rocky Mount to Bassett Forks, but I believe it was at that point they let the AM station go dark. I think I was told they actually offered the 1290 frequency to WYTI when WYTI moved into the old WZBB/WNLB studios, but WYTI preferred to remain at 1570.


> > It's no surprise that folks say WZBB is a good sounding
> > station because they're owned by good people and Glenn
> Lynch
> > is one of the finest broadcasters I've ever worked with.
>
>
> It certainly seemed better sounding than you'd expect in a
> micro-market that size.
>
> When did 1290/Rocky Mount go dark? I find some web search
> hits for them, but can't find anything recent. There's this
> RECnet return that shows the last license renewal in 1996:
>
> http://www.recnet.com/cdbs/fmq.php?facid=73339
>
> It certainly wasn't on the air when I first entered the
> market (2003).
>
> -OA
>
 
Re: WNLB/1290?

> The history may be a bit sketchy here, since I moved away
> from Southwestern Virginia in '92, but it was around '92
> when WZBB moved the country from the AM to the FM and they
> put a satellite oldies format on 1290 and changed the calls
> to WFYN. I don't remember the year they moved the studios
> from Rocky Mount to Bassett Forks, but I believe it was at
> that point they let the AM station go dark. I think I was
> told they actually offered the 1290 frequency to WYTI when
> WYTI moved into the old WZBB/WNLB studios, but WYTI
> preferred to remain at 1570.
Sorry--I can't let this discussion pass without talking about my experience in the "Rocky Mount-Roanoke-Martinsburg" radio market. I attended Ferrum (Junior) College from 1966-68. For those of us from Richmond, Tidewater, or Northern Virginia, the radio scene there was quite a shock. After a few weeks of snooping around, we found there were certain "hot spots" in the dorms where WROV-AM could be recieved quite well during the daytime. Those rooms were highly sought after and hard to get. At night there was nothing except FM which at the time was a new concept except for those students from NOVA who were already familiar with WPGC-FM. From Roanoke we recieved two FMs, both coming in like gangbusters, even in the basement rooms---WDBJ-FM (now WSLC) which simucasted WDBJ-AM (now WFIR), and WSLS-FM (now WSLQ) which played automated "Beautiful Music." 92.3 (WJLQ?)was also on the air from Roanoke with beautiful music but was never recievable in Ferrum. We listened to WMVA-FM (now WROV-FM), which was a 100% simucast of WMVA/1450, a lot at night. WMVA at the time was dayparted and played top 40 at night. WMVA was a very small-town operation, but the fidelity of the music was spectacular. You have to remember, the only other way to get music, was to play records--the eight track had not even come in big yet. We had to have our Beatles, Motown, protest songs, etc., so WMVA-FM was very important. Also, they aired NBC news at the top of every hour--I can remember hearing all of the troubling news of the day on those newscasts. I can remember WKWS, later known as WNLB (THe country Giant), and WYTI (The Mighty Whitey). Both were horrible, horrible stations that nobody at the college would never listen to. I remember returning to the campus in the early 80s and doing an automatic scan on my FM car radio. Dozens of strong stations came up, including the wonderful K-92 and many stations from the Triad. I remember wondering what it would be like to attend Ferrum and recieve all those great stations---how times change. Sorry for the long post...
 
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