FM translators for Valley AM stations

[stewie]

If KIOO could move just a bit north but much higher than they currently are, how close could they get to KMAK without violating spacing/distance rules?

Yea, because of the class of KKBZ and KCRZ they both can have good elevation and still cover similar areas.

Regarding KIOO, KCIV 99.9 is more of a concern than KMAK. It's a full class B north of Fresno but it puts a 60 dBu signal nearly into Madera and a 50+/- dBu signal into Fresno.

Any further north or a raise in elevation would most likely create issues.

 

[DanielBoone]

I swear KIOO used to be better in fresno. Till that truck hit the tower.

I remember years ago 640 KFI used to come in clear at night in Fresno, until a plane knocked down their tower. After they put up their new tower in LaMirada, it's not as clear, even though it is still 50k watts.

 

[kenrayc]

Regarding KIOO, KCIV 99.9 is more of a concern than KMAK. It's a full class B north of Fresno but it puts a 60 dBu signal nearly into Madera and a 50+/- dBu signal into Fresno.

Any further north or a raise in elevation would most likely create issues.

KIOO 99.7 does work well with a roof top antenna (about 20 ft ground level) in Clovis, so they are at the edge of the line of sight here, so it wouldn't take a major change to improve it, I wouldn't think, like suggested before higher tower at the same site with lower power.
I don't get any bleed-over from 99.9 at home, and in the car 99.7 comes in good south and east from Highway 180 and Clovis avenue.

 

[bjmtech]

KIOO 99.7 does work well with a roof top antenna (about 20 ft ground level) in Clovis, so they are at the edge of the line of sight here, so it wouldn't take a major change to improve it, I wouldn't think, like suggested before higher tower at the same site with lower power.
I don't get any bleed-over from 99.9 at home, and in the car 99.7 comes in good south and east from Highway 180 and Clovis avenue.

I agree, it seems like KIOO is almost there, if they could just get to a slightly higher elevation or higher antenna I think it would "see" Fresno/Clovis without causing interference to KCIV. In fact, now that I think about it, raising the antenna might be a better solution than moving the station north because it has a higher broadcast signal and moving it further north might actually cause more issues than just raising it just enough.

 

[MisterGort]

As for KFI AM, the new tower is shorter and uses a top loaded "Top Hat" and the old KFI site is no longer in a clear wide open field. All of the land around the KFI tower has been developed and paved and the tower itself is now in the center of a trucking company parking lot with commercial buildings all around. Yes - the KFI signal is a lot different.

As for KIOO 99.7, the NEW tower is a bit taller than the old one but is on the same location on Lewis Hill, Porterville. KIOO has only 3.6 Miles room to the north in which to move closer to Fresno. There is no room on Lewis Hill for a taller tower. Both FAA and County building restrictions also apply. KIOO is what it will ever be.

 

[DanielBoone]

KIOO 99.7 does work well with a roof top antenna (about 20 ft ground level) in Clovis, so they are at the edge of the line of sight here, so it wouldn't take a major change to improve it, I wouldn't think, like suggested before higher tower at the same site with lower power.
I don't get any bleed-over from 99.9 at home, and in the car 99.7 comes in good south and east from Highway 180 and Clovis avenue.

Yes, it comes in fine in Sanger and most open spaces out there.

 

[davideduardo]

As for KFI AM, the new tower is shorter and uses a top loaded "Top Hat" and the old KFI site is no longer in a clear wide open field. All of the land around the KFI tower has been developed and paved and the tower itself is now in the center of a trucking company parking lot with commercial buildings all around. Yes - the KFI signal is a lot different.

I am not sure the KFI signal is significantly different than it was 20 years ago or more.

The slight reduction in tower height is made up in the top loading which makes it tune as a half-wave. A true half-wave at 640 kHz is 234 meters, and the tower is 209 meters high... a difference of only about 50 feet which is approximated by the top loading. The difference in field strength at 1 km is minimal.

Plenty of AM stations have had parking lots or buildings put on top of the ground system. KFI carefully engineered the warehouses and related parking facilities and there should be little difference. Similarly, KTNQ built warehouses on its site in Industry, and they carefully measured field strength before, during and after and there was no significant difference that could not as easily be attributed to seasonal changes in conductivity in a semi-arrid desert.

The differences in the skywave reception in Fresno can easily be attributed to the slight change in tower height, which would affect the angle of skywave radiation. Since KFI has no real interest in skywave coverage, that change is irrelevant.

 

[brettbutlerisok]

It's the top hat, not the pavement. KNBR uses one too, makes the ground wave go a little farther at the cost of regional skywave, however with a good radio you can listen to KFI in Fresno during the day under perfect conditions, because of the top hat.

 

[bjmtech]

Another AM is getting a FM translator, this time in Merced. K225BB currently licensed to King City at 92.9 is moving to Merced at 107.3 and is going to broadcast KYOS 1480 AM. Can anyone confirm if this new translator is yet on the air?

 

[bjmtech]

KHOT 1240 AM Madera has a new FM Translator in Fresno at 100.7 FM. Covers some of NW Fresno, similar to KJOI 104.3.

 

[mendotatech]

I agree with everything you said.

I was just making the point that someone at the FCC decided it would be ok if people in Biola could no longer hear KHKK. Then many years later someone decided it would be ok if people in Biola couldn't hear KFRR.

LPFM has turned out to be a total cluster eff.

200 kHz Spacing on each end of the frequency would mean any station broadcasting will bleed into it's adjacent depending on how powerful the signal is. After you get to Dickenson (KJOI's 60dB), you begin to hear KFRR's latter end of the 200 kHz, which is what is supposed to happen. Many people believe that all frequencies in the FM band should be best left for high-power entities with plenty of spacing beyond the 200 kHz spectrum. At some point, the FCC will need to decide how best to compact the FM spectrum as cellular providers continue to contend that AM and FM stations are the biggest form of interference to their cell towers because most transmitter manufacturers set their amplifiers to broadband tuning, which often blows out all other frequencies when you are a block and a half away from any FM tower. Maybe migrating completely to IBOC as a standard and not an exclusive license and only permitting two or three baseband FM frequencies per market may not be such a bad idea.

 

[brettbutlerisok]

Many people believe that all frequencies in the FM band should be best left for high-power entities with plenty of spacing beyond the 200 kHz spectrum.

This is me. I should be able to listen to KFRR on my Sony ICF-S10MK2 where 180 meets 145. The range that KFRR cost KHKK makes this somehow mean more to me.

KJOI serves probably maybe 2000 some people, I could see it if 10,000 people lived in Biola and the station actually served the community. The FCC IMHO needs to regulate service to the community much more strictly in the case of LPFM's.

Maybe migrating completely to IBOC as a standard and not an exclusive license and only permitting two or three baseband FM frequencies per market may not be such a bad idea.

At that point why don't we just stream the stations on our cell phones?

 

[mendotatech]

This is me. I should be able to listen to KFRR on my Sony ICF-S10MK2 where 180 meets 145. The range that KFRR cost KHKK makes this somehow mean more to me.

KJOI serves probably maybe 2000 some people, I could see it if 10,000 people lived in Biola and the station actually served the community. The FCC IMHO needs to regulate service to the community much more strictly in the case of LPFM's.


At that point why don't we just stream the stations on our cell phones?

KFRR's 60dB is between Auckland and Orosi. Between that and Selma would be it's fringe range. There is NO WAY KFRR would then be received on a portable pocket radio at Dickenson and Whitesbridge. Car radios would probably be fine, but not pocket radios.

Why not stream? Because the cell phone companies have us by our necks on data usage!

 

[kenrayc]

KFRR's 60dB is between Auckland and Orosi. Between that and Selma would be it's fringe range. There is NO WAY KFRR would then be received on a portable pocket radio at Dickenson and Whitesbridge. Car radios would probably be fine, but not pocket radios.

Why not stream? Because the cell phone companies have us by our necks on data usage!

You can't go by the FCC filed coverage maps, stations on Eshom point go much further than that, they have 17K watts at 5000 ft Sea Level because of the HAAT calculation, I have picked up KFRR on a Sony Walkman in Los Banos.

 

[mendotatech]

You can't go by the FCC filed coverage maps, stations on Eshom point go much further than that, they have 17K watts at 5000 ft Sea Level because of the HAAT calculation, I have picked up KFRR on a Sony Walkman in Los Banos.

I should correct my earlier comment. 94.3 KOKO Tower is very close to 180 and 145. That and you have several other signals that cause interference in the FM band. I pass there almost on a daily basis.

 

[mofocat]

You can't go by the FCC filed coverage maps, stations on Eshom point go much further than that, they have 17K watts at 5000 ft Sea Level because of the HAAT calculation, I have picked up KFRR on a Sony Walkman in Los Banos.

whoa wait a minute ! I thot KFRR is on Ishom Point! Radio locator is now showing - 1936 feet ASL. ???
Ya ya I know i need to go to FCC as my source but thats a lot mor effort and its late. lol
Mendotech is using this wacko 1936ft elv.

 

[mofocat]

OMG My booboo! All these years I was mistaking, thinking KFRR was on Ishom. Doh!
I guess it was the ERP and the HAAT figures being almost the same as those for the Ishom stations that I was just assuming......
Crazy that ERP and HAAT factors and the general location are all so similar. But that actual ASL makes a big difference in actual coverage even though the HAAT is almost the same. Well, I'll be.... LOL

 

[kenrayc]

OMG My booboo! All these years I was mistaking, thinking KFRR was on Ishom. Doh!
I guess it was the ERP and the HAAT figures being almost the same as those for the Ishom stations that I was just assuming......
Crazy that ERP and HAAT factors and the general location are all so similar. But that actual ASL makes a big difference in actual coverage even though the HAAT is almost the same. Well, I'll be.... LOL

There's an error on Radio-Locator, look at the coordinates, click where it says transmitter location, it's the same as KSOF, KBOS, KSEQ, KFSO, and etc. KFRR 104.1 IS ON Eshom Point. definitely an error, I have Heard KFRR From Los Banos to Bakersfield and on the Grapevine all the way to Frazier Park.

 

[mofocat]

There's an error on Radio-Locator, look at the coordinates, click where it says transmitter location, it's the same as KSOF, KBOS, KSEQ, KFSO, and etc. KFRR 104.1 IS ON Eshom Point. definitely an error, I have Heard KFRR From Los Banos to Bakersfield and on the Grapevine all the way to Frazier Park.

Im sure it is an error, BUT I did go to FCC site and the error is THERE. Radio-locator is just passing the FCCs error on in the R-L site.

 

[mofocat]

Im sure it is an error, BUT I did go to FCC site and the error is THERE. Radio-locator is just passing the FCCs error on in the R-L site.

I saw the coordinates to be nearly the same as Ishom but thot 'well maybe it is just further down the hill from the top of the mtn.' like the way KJUG moved down from the top of Blue Ridge.