Buffalo Radio Ratings

[davideduardo]

No, Satellite listening beats the total cume of terrestrial listening, share , rank, and cume. My friend works at Nielson.

In most markets, the Sirius/XM share is around an 8 with a rating of about 1.

About one in nine to ten vehicles have an operating satellite subscription nationally. In-car is over 90% of Sirius/XM listening. In car listening is less than half of all radio listening.

There is no way for the satellite cume to beat terrestrial cume. Terrestrial cume is about 90% of all persons weekly. Less than 10% of all persons even have XM in the car... and even if we count family members who are also diary keepers, there is no way for satellite cume, share, rank or AQH persons to come anywhere near terrestrial radio.

You need a new Nielsen rep.

 

[davideduardo]

In other words, all 100+ stations on satellite put together get more listeners in Buffalo than WYRK?

Yes, or they would be, approximately tied in share. Satellite has around an 8 share in the "average" market. Markets with poor stations or "missing" important formats get a bit more, ones like LA and NYC get a lot less.

 

[davideduardo]

Since you knew all of this long ago, did subscribing to Nielsen benefit you? In other words, did you get any advertisers that you wouldn't have been able to without the ratings? WECK has more than double the ratings of WBUF. Is that worth anything?

Most savvy advertisers would know that the audience for an Oldies format is almost entirely over 55. Your station is a good fit if they want to target those demos. It seems like eliminating the Nielsen expense would improve your bottom line. You wouldn't be losing advertisers who wish to target 25--54 demos anyway...

I'll mention (yet) again my experience years back when I was in what was then a Top 30 market. The traditional local ratings company closed due to the owner's death. For two years we had no ratings. The market billings dropped by about 50% as agencies did a "take it or leave it" attitude and local accounts could not prove value for the higher priced stations.

By the start of the third year, everyone was losing money.... from Bob Hope's station to the Hearst and Mooney Broadcasting stations.

I managed to get The Pulse and the Roslow's to come in, and within a year, billings were even higher than the previous peak.

 

[davideduardo]

Music testing is a critical component, no argument. But remember, there are a number of components that must be done absolutely right; if not, the money, time and energy spent on the music test is wasted. Years ago, stations did auditorium music tests as frequently as every other year, but tightened budgets and economics have in many cases eliminated testing, or caused it to be substantially reduced. There's not a programmer or consultant in the business who at one time or another hasn't been surprised by the score a certain songs gets in different markets.

I agree totally. Research is like a tool, but it is one of the key tools for a music format.

Most stations I know, in markets as small as El Paso or McAllen or Fresno, and prior to the pandemic, did tests twice a year on the library and used larger market callout for current trends (if the station played currents).

When the group I managed had a country station in Tallahassee, FL, we tested once a year in one of three rotating but very similar markets in the Panhandle, SE AL and SW GA. We shared cost, and shared the product and then got input on currents from Rusty Walker and his crew. That was not even a Top 100 market, but we figured out how to test and get current research.

In the bigger markets, like LA, we tested four times a year. And did weekly callout on the current based stations, and six times a year on the gold based station which rotated with tests that were done every two months, half in each of one of 6 markets.

We found that testing the same songs in different markets did not significantly change the playability of any song, although in some markets the rotation category would be a little different.

When a song did not test as well in a particular market, it was usually due to another station or stations overplaying the song in the more recent past. That tended to flatten over time.

 

[four4rock]

Just FYI, it was brought up that agencies have access to all radio station data. Beginning this month, that is not the case. If a radio station does not subscribe to Nielsen, that station will appear no where, not even to agencies.

its another way of saying “ extortion”. Only stations that pay the full boat and subscribe to Nielsen will be shown anywhere. I own a station and a advertising agency, so I know this well. this is a brand new rule from Nielsen

WECK is busting at the seams in the 50 plus demo, but even in spite of that, I may not renew. Most local agencies purchase by their gut, or relationships, national agencies strictly purchase by ratings, but they only care about 25 to 54.

I think us radio geeks focus way too much on ratings. Now that they come every month, it is especially a pain in the a**. Good or bad, I don’t believe they are truly accurate. How can they be? The system is old and archaic.

I know Ed Christian who owns Saga. He was telling me that the whole group dropped Nielsen and they are glad they did. They now sell by qualitative, not quantitative, which is much better anyway.

They don’t care what their “ rank of the month “ is, because they know that is not what local listeners and advertisers care about.

This ratings game is getting old. It is counterproductive. Good or bad. Radio should be thinking about content, advertisers, and running a good ship. WECK is going to have a great ratings book this month, even 12 plus, because I have seen the trends. It will be a 3.5 to 4. The same place it usually is, but I don’t give a shi* anymore.

I used to be at my computer at 12 noon waiting for the numbers. Now, I forget what day they are coming out.

Companies that depend on national business should be in the ratings game, but besides that, I can’t think of any compelling reason. Our agreement ends in a few months. I doubt I will renew

#truth

Seems to me that any discussion of ratings by radio sales should be preceded by "If it matters,.." or "FWIW...". Were 'ratings' and 'testing' to be such a accurate, valid, and reliable element/tool, radio should be (to steal a phrase from above), "busting at the seams". But it isn't, is it.

 

[Buddy Shula]

There is a way to know when people are writing it in diaries. Which they are. I have seen plenty write it. They say “ I listen to satellite “ . It’s pretty scary.

 

[Buddy Shula]

#truth

Seems to me that any discussion of ratings by radio sales should be preceded by "If it matters,.." or "FWIW...". Were 'ratings' and 'testing' to be such a accurate, valid, and reliable element/tool, radio should be (to steal a phrase from above), "busting at the seams". But it isn't, is it.

It’s not busting at the seems for sure. And your correct, the methodology is outdated by far. But it is what it is. I would be happy to attach some specific demos from ratings for any month if you would like.

The best thing about the ratings, and the few that send them back, is seeing what they write. You can tell that the diary keeper could care less about the whole thing.

plus, they get so much wrong. They call stations by different names, they confuse stations. I personally just like reading the comments. They often take stabs at radio like, “ I did not know radio is still around”

people can believe what they want to believe, but the industry needs help. Technology has overtaken it, and it’s gonna get worse.

Thats why I own an ad agency too

 

[Buddy Shula]

In most markets, the Sirius/XM share is around an 8 with a rating of about 1.

About one in nine to ten vehicles have an operating satellite subscription nationally. In-car is over 90% of Sirius/XM listening. In car listening is less than half of all radio listening.

There is no way for the satellite cume to beat terrestrial cume. Terrestrial cume is about 90% of all persons weekly. Less than 10% of all persons even have XM in the car... and even if we count family members who are also diary keepers, there is no way for satellite cume, share, rank or AQH persons to come anywhere near terrestrial radio.

You need a new Nielsen rep.

A rating of 1 is high in big markets. I deal with NYC radio stations for my agency and most stations don’t even have a one rating. Listenership is down and fragmented

 

[TheBigA]

Thats why I own an ad agency too

And that's why all of the other radio companies in Buffalo are devoting some of their attention and investment to "technology."

 

[tbolt909]

I'll mention (yet) again my experience years back when I was in what was then a Top 30 market. The traditional local ratings company closed due to the owner's death. For two years we had no ratings. The market billings dropped by about 50% as agencies did a "take it or leave it" attitude and local accounts could not prove value for the higher priced stations.

By the start of the third year, everyone was losing money.... from Bob Hope's station to the Hearst and Mooney Broadcasting stations.

I managed to get The Pulse and the Roslow's to come in, and within a year, billings were even higher than the previous peak.

This does not apply to WECK's situation. You missed the point again.

Yes, Radio stations that want to charge high rates need some evidence to prove their worth. They also need to deliver those coveted younger demos (and prove it)...

 

[Rusty Bridges]

I recall reading not long ago that Saga, in its larger markets, subscribes to Nielsen.

 

[Rusty Bridges]

I recall reading not long ago that Saga, in its larger markets, subscribes to Nielsen.

Addendum: It should be noted that, due to economic conditions related to the pandemic, some subscribers have opted out of the monthly reports, choosing only to subscribe to quarterly reports.

 

[CTListener]

What are Saga's largest markets?

 

[Rusty Bridges]

What are Saga's largest markets?

Saga Radio Stations

 

[davideduardo]

#truth

Seems to me that any discussion of ratings by radio sales should be preceded by "If it matters,.." or "FWIW...". Were 'ratings' and 'testing' to be such a accurate, valid, and reliable element/tool, radio should be (to steal a phrase from above), "busting at the seams". But it isn't, is it.

Remember, the "ratings" we see online are actually "shares" and not "ratings". As such, the total of all listening is indeed "busting at the seams" because shares always add up to 100.

"Ratings" are done to satisfy advertiser needs for metrics to justify prices. It's been that way for about 91 years.

Testing is an in-house, private and confidential matter where stations attempt to find ways to get more audience, which means taking some from others. It does not always work because testing does not tell you how to do something, it just tells you what listeners like and want.

 

[davideduardo]

Addendum: It should be noted that, due to economic conditions related to the pandemic, some subscribers have opted out of the monthly reports, choosing only to subscribe to quarterly reports.

And, in some cases, only the Spring and Fall quarterly, not Winter and Summer. There are may markets that don't have continuous diary measurement, too. Those only have a Spring and Fall book, and no monthlies.

 

[davideduardo]

This does not apply to WECK's situation. You missed the point again.

Yes it does and no, I did not.

In rated markets, even the non-subscribed stations float with the tide. If everyone else is selling cheaper than normal, the bottom feeders have to further cut rates even for local accounts.

Yes, Radio stations that want to charge high rates need some evidence to prove their worth. They also need to deliver those coveted younger demos (and prove it)...

And if a local account can suddenly buy what is likely a top station for cheap rates, the lesser stations willl have to charge far less.

If you could get a "well equipped" Lexus or BMW or Audi for $16,000, what do you think that would do to the prices of a KIA?

 

[tbolt909]

And if a local account can suddenly buy what is likely a top station for cheap rates, the lesser stations willl have to charge far less.

If you could get a "well equipped" Lexus or BMW or Audi for $16,000, what do you think that would do to the prices of a KIA?

It's a Dog Eat Dog World. Some advertisers may consider buying time on Commercial Radio the equivalent of buying a Ford Pinto or AMC Pacer. Supply & Demand usually decides "monetary worth". If younger demos view Radio as obsolete, then rates will move into "Dollar A Holler" territory...

 

[davideduardo]

It's a Dog Eat Dog World. Some advertisers may consider buying time on Commercial Radio the equivalent of buying a Ford Pinto or AMC Pacer. Supply & Demand usually decides "monetary worth". If younger demos view Radio as obsolete, then rates will move into "Dollar A Holler" territory...

Yet the actual data does not bear out your assumptions. Around 90% of persons 18+ use radio weekly. The average listening time is about 8 hours. Even in 18-34, the figure is well over 75%.

 

[four4rock]

Yet the actual data does not bear out your assumptions. Around 90% of persons 18+ use radio weekly. The average listening time is about 8 hours. Even in 18-34, the figure is well over 75%.

Hmmmm. I'm curious. How exactly is "listening time" determined? What exactly does that mean?