560

[Mark Roberts]

If 560 were to continue, I'd expect KVTO to try and move frequencies. That's a 5-fold increase on power and a lot more ground conductivity. Given the large Chinese population in SF, it would increase listenership in areas where the 93.7 translator is too weak.

One thing to keep in mind is that "Chinese" communities are differentiated in the Bay Area by origins and by language spoken. The original 19th century immigrants and their descendants were/are Cantonese speakers. They're concentrated in San Francisco and in the bayside East Bay. More recent immigrants, who tended to come from the People's Republic to attend university and then stayed, are Mandarin speakers, and are more likely to be in Silicon Valley. It's my understanding that Cantonese and Mandarin, while described in English as dialects, are really quite distinct languages. KVTO (and KEST) are programming to the Cantonese-speaking audience for the most part. I don't know of any South Bay stations programming entirely in Mandarin. (After I went back to working in downtown San Francisco, I wasn't in the South Bay much.) There are three stations programming in Vietnamese, which, of course, is a distinct community of its own, speaking a language entirely unrelated to the Chinese languages.

Also note that KVTO and KVVN (1430, Santa Clara) have the same ownership. KVVN is in Vietnamese; KVTO aims for Cantonese-speaking listeners.

KVTO's translator, K229DD, is on the Sutro Tower. So it's just fine in San Francisco and the areas it needs to cover in Berkeley, Emeryville, and Oakland.

 

[Cityguy76]

If 560 were to continue, I'd expect KVTO to try and move frequencies. That's a 5-fold increase on power and a lot more ground conductivity. Given the large Chinese population in SF, it would increase listenership in areas where the 93.7 translator is too weak.
Otherwise, it becomes KTCT...or Cumulus surrenders it.

its possible Cumulus moves KTCT programming to 560...and then 1050 is either sold, licensed surrendered or it becomes again the "nifty" 1050 (joking) 😁

 

[fordranger797]

One thing to keep in mind is that "Chinese" communities are differentiated in the Bay Area by origins and by language spoken. The original 19th century immigrants and their descendants were/are Cantonese speakers. They're concentrated in San Francisco and in the bayside East Bay. More recent immigrants, who tended to come from the People's Republic to attend university and then stayed, are Mandarin speakers, and are more likely to be in Silicon Valley. It's my understanding that Cantonese and Mandarin, while described in English as dialects, are really quite distinct languages. KVTO (and KEST) are programming to the Cantonese-speaking audience for the most part. I don't know of any South Bay stations programming entirely in Mandarin. (After I went back to working in downtown San Francisco, I wasn't in the South Bay much.) There are three stations programming in Vietnamese, which, of course, is a distinct community of its own, speaking a language entirely unrelated to the Chinese languages.

Also note that KVTO and KVVN (1430, Santa Clara) have the same ownership. KVVN is in Vietnamese; KVTO aims for Cantonese-speaking listeners.

KVTO's translator, K229DD, is on the Sutro Tower. So it's just fine in San Francisco and the areas it needs to cover in Berkeley, Emeryville, and Oakland.

You’re correct that mandarin speakers and Cantonese speakers don’t really care for the same type of programming. My partner speaks mandarin. She doesn’t mind listening to some Cantonese music, but she’s not interested in hearing any Cantonese spoken word content because that’s not her language. I assume that a Cantonese speaker may feel the same way. Programs targeted at each audience would need to be separate.

In the Vancouver market (which is temporarily my “home” market), radio stations that broadcast to Chinese listeners alternate between Mandarin and Cantonese programming, sharing programming between two different stations. When one is airing mandarin, the other one airs Cantonese (and vise versa).

I could see 560 being used to broadcast programming that targets the Asian listening audience, but that’s something that would have to be managed (obviously).

 

[Miss Tuned]

You’re correct that mandarin speakers and Cantonese speakers don’t really care for the same type of programming. My partner speaks mandarin. She doesn’t mind listening to some Cantonese music, but she’s not interested in hearing any Cantonese spoken word content because that’s not her language. I assume that a Cantonese speaker may feel the same way. Programs targeted at each audience would need to be separate.

We have similar in the UK. Hindi and Urdu are almost the same language (when spoken - they're written differently). There are radio stations broadcasting in both. But the speakers aren't interested in listening to each other's programming because of cultural and religious differences. Hindi programming is often entertainment and culturally based, often Bollywood related, but Urdu programming is more often religious in nature.

 

[seattlesarchiebunker]

I’d still find it fairly hard to believe that a buyer/LMA partner can’t be found for a decent AM signal in a top 5 radio market.

They may “know what they’ve got” and don’t want “no lowballers”, but if they can’t figure out what to do with it I’m pretty certain they can unload the station on someone for some $$. They do have shareholders to appease, so turning a license in when it could be sold (or even donated) would arguably be a violation of the company’s fiduciary responsibilities.

I’d argue in an absolute worse case scenario, it gets donated to someone like MMTC for a tax write-off.

 

[TheBigA]

They do have shareholders to appease, so turning a license in when it could be sold (or even donated) would arguably be a violation of the company’s fiduciary responsibilities.

Nobody challenged them when they turned in the license of WFAS in White Plains:

Cumulus Media Ceases Operations of 1230 WFAS, Returns License on All-Digital AM Signal

With the surrender of the license for 1230 WFAS, Cumulus has now completely vacated the nations largest market after selling its holdings in the city between 2018 and 2023.

barrettmedia.com

 

[Weiserguy]

Nobody challenged them when they turned in the license of WFAS in White Plains:

Cumulus Media Ceases Operations of 1230 WFAS, Returns License on All-Digital AM Signal

With the surrender of the license for 1230 WFAS, Cumulus has now completely vacated the nations largest market after selling its holdings in the city between 2018 and 2023.

barrettmedia.com

By the time they turned in WFAS's license, Cumulus had largely destroyed whatever value was left in 1230 with their great idea of running it 100% in digital. There's still a bit of hope for 560, since they've had an audience up until recently. (Even after launching the 810 simulcast, with 810 being the vastly superior signal, large numbers of listeners stayed put on 560 to hear their favorite wingnut programming.)

That's not even mentioning that they're such sharp programmers that they had to evacuate from the largest market in the country. I mean, if Red Apple could do what Cumulus couldn't, they should turn in all their licenses and invest the savings in a mattress.

 

[TheBigA]

By the time they turned in WFAS's license, Cumulus had largely destroyed whatever value was left in 1230 with their great idea of running it 100% in digital.

It was destroyed before that. That's why it didn't matter when they went digital. There is no business for a 1k AM station. Just like there's no business for WVOX in nearby New Rochelle. At one time, these were vibrant, important radio stations. Today, they're useless to anyone. People have to be willing to accept the day for AM radio is over. It was over 50 years ago, but some stations have managed to hang on. WABC bought itself a few years because a billionaire was willing to lose money playing radio. There are lots of billionaires in San Francisco and so far none of them are willing to throw their money away on an AM station.

 

[davideduardo]

Nobody challenged them when they turned in the license of WFAS in White Plains:

Unlike 560 in SF, WFAS is today a useless low powered former Class IV station on a high on the dial frequency.

 

[davideduardo]

WABC bought itself a few years because a billionaire was willing to lose money playing radio.

I would not be so sure that WABC loses money. Because the owner has so many business relationships in the market, he seems to get a good amount of buys... although we don't know the rates he's getting.

 

[TheBigA]

I would not be so sure that WABC loses money. Because the owner has so many business relationships in the market, he seems to get a good amount of buys... although we don't know the rates he's getting.

I don't know IF he's losing money, but he's willing to. He's able to. He doesn't answer to stockholders. That's what I mean.

 

[fordranger797]

I'm somewhere in the middle of the whole AM debate. The days of a vibrant AM band are surely long gone, but I think there are some examples of AM stations that can still have relevancy.

If you're talking about low-powered, graveyard, or other small AMs (usually near the top of the band), then yes, I think the sun has long set on most of these stations. The "better" (cream of the crop) AMs are the stations that provide a steady and reliable signal all around their respective markets, are relatively free of interference (even if the audio is inferior to FM), and can easily be picked up on most radios. To be entirely honest, there are not a ton of AMs that meet these criteria anymore, but those who do seem viable to me. I won't comment on the listening habits of the average listener, but for me, listening to a station like KCBS 740 doesn't bother me at all. Even as someone who represents generation Z, spoken word content on a frequency that comes in crystal clear is not something that I think twice about. A strong and steady 50kw AM signal sounds better than FM in many cases (not in terms of audio quality, but sometimes in reception). For example, there's parts of the market that might get a fuzzy KCBS on 106.9, but an extremely strong 740.

So in short, I'd say that 560, 610, 680, 740, 810, 860 (probably), and 1100 seem to be the better (and most reliable) signals in town. Any time of the day or night, you could tune in to these frequencies and hear the programming you're looking for. It's consistent, and it sounds fine. It's not how I would choose to listen to music, but for talk and information programming, it wouldn't be a problem. There are others that may be decent (or serve a specific audience of community well), but that's probably a case by case basis.

 

[michael hagerty]

So in short, I'd say that 560, 610, 680, 740, 810, 860 (probably), and 1100 seem to be the better (and most reliable) signals in town. Any time of the day or night, you could tune in to these frequencies and hear the programming you're looking for.

And yet, few do.

560's best book in the last six months was a 1.7. That was before the simulcast. We don't know how well 680 and 740 do because of single-line reporting. 610, 860 and 1100 don't subscribe. So that 1.7 is the known high-water mark for AM listening in the market in the last six months.

There is no there there.

 

[Mark Roberts]

By the time they turned in WFAS's license, Cumulus had largely destroyed whatever value was left in 1230 with their great idea of running it 100% in digital. There's still a bit of hope for 560, since they've had an audience up until recently. (Even after launching the 810 simulcast, with 810 being the vastly superior signal, large numbers of listeners stayed put on 560 to hear their favorite wingnut programming.)

After hearing the barking sea lion 30 times an hour over several days, whatever audience there was at 560 would certainly have fled by now. It's an auditory colonscopy.

 

[davideduardo]

ISo in short, I'd say that 560, 610, 680, 740, 810, 860 (probably), and 1100 seem to be the better (and most reliable) signals in town. Any time of the day or night, you could tune in to these frequencies and hear the programming you're looking for.

I believe you are not in the SF market, so you may not visualize the geography of the Nielsen Metro Survey Area. It extends from Gilroy to the south to Santa Rosa to the north; while San Jose is a separate "embedded" Nielsen market, that report is just an extract from the larger San Francisco radio market report that includes that area.

560 is not a good-as-the-rest night signal, and 860 and 1100 are just not in the running for day and night full market coverage. Heck, even the 740 signal is rough up towards Santa Rosa at night despite having a transmitter site to the north side of the bay.

 

[Mark Roberts]

So in short, I'd say that 560, 610, 680, 740, 810, 860 (probably), and 1100 seem to be the better (and most reliable) signals in town. Any time of the day or night, you could tune in to these frequencies and hear the programming you're looking for. It's consistent, and it sounds fine. It's not how I would choose to listen to music, but for talk and information programming, it wouldn't be a problem. There are others that may be decent (or serve a specific audience of community well), but that's probably a case by case basis.

And yet, few do.

560's best book in the last six months was a 1.7. That was before the simulcast. We don't know how well 680 and 740 do because of single-line reporting. 610, 860 and 1100 don't subscribe. So that 1.7 is the known high-water mark for AM listening in the market in the last six months.

The phrase to keep in mind is this: a necessary but not sufficient condition.

Coverage is necessary but not sufficient for success. That's always been true. People, aside from DXers, listen to programs and formats, not to signals. That's true on AM; that's true on FM. The only entities for whom coverage is the primary criterion for success generally are religious broadcasters. They're showing less and less interest in AM. The day may come when they feel they don't even need FM. The real competition is on-demand listening. Unless you're existing in multiple dimensions simultaneously, that's just not possible on a broadcast radio station. Any business models that emerge for radio broadcasters will have to keep that in mind.

The bounty of ideas that have poured forth regarding the future of 560 also haven't, in my opinion, taken into account the costs of actually operating the thing. It's not just electricity and computers, it's licensing, compliance, rent, and other fixed costs. The reason you see so much cost-cutting is that you can't control revenues but you can control costs to a certain extent. The only alternative is some kind of subsidy, and that subsidy has to have a purpose.

That's not to say someone won't come along and try to buy 560. I would rule out nothing. Looking at it in terms of probability, I still think the most-likely thing is for the station to go silent. It's more up in the air as to whether Cumulus would turn in the license right away or wait to see if that special someone comes along with cash in hand. Bonne chance!

 

[Mark Roberts]

560 is not a good-as-the-rest night signal, and 860 and 1100 are just not in the running for day and night full market coverage. Heck, even the 740 signal is rough up towards Santa Rosa at night despite having a transmitter site to the north side of the bay.

Actually, the issue with 740 is immediately to the east-northeast of Novato with severe distortion in Sonoma (city) and Napa at night due to phase cancellation. I've heard it for myself. You really can't listen to it. Yes, Santa Rosa is also in Sonoma county, but on the better side of Novato - Sonoma is a big county.

 

[Mark Roberts]

Actually, the issue with 740 is immediately to the east-northeast of Novato with severe distortion in Sonoma (city) and Napa at night due to phase cancellation. I've heard it for myself. You really can't listen to it. Yes, Santa Rosa is also in Sonoma county, but on the better side of Novato - Sonoma is a big county.

Edits, since the time limit expired while I was trying to edit: Sonoma city is actually more northeast of Novato. Novato itself is in Marin county; my wording above may have implied it was in Sonoma county. The KCBS transmitter site is northeast of Novato in a slough along the Petaluma River. It can be seen from Highway 37. If you're exiting US 101 onto Highway 37, it may feel like you're going east but you're really going northeast, which fooled my spatial memory.

 

[fordranger797]

I believe you are not in the SF market, so you may not visualize the geography of the Nielsen Metro Survey Area. It extends from Gilroy to the south to Santa Rosa to the north; while San Jose is a separate "embedded" Nielsen market, that report is just an extract from the larger San Francisco radio market report that includes that area.

560 is not a good-as-the-rest night signal, and 860 and 1100 are just not in the running for day and night full market coverage. Heck, even the 740 signal is rough up towards Santa Rosa at night despite having a transmitter site to the north side of the bay.

This is a fair point. I'm not local to San Francisco, but spend a considerable amount of time there. I've always been pleasantly surprised by how well some of the AMs perform (mainly 680, 740, and 810). But of course, this entirely depends on where you listening from. 75% of my travel is by car between SF and San Jose on the 101, and the AM performance on the west side of the bay sounds pretty good. The other 25% of my travel involves driving to Santa Cruz, and again, the AM performance isn't as bad as I figured it would be.

But nonetheless, I am sure other areas aren't served as well. And it's worth mentioning that I only threw out a handful of AM stations that sounded decent. That's probably not a ringing endorsement for saving AM radio. The same thing can probably be said for my home market of Seattle, where the main AM players in town sound fine (while there are countless other AMs that don't).

 

[Weiserguy]

People have to be willing to accept the day for AM radio is over. It was over 50 years ago, but some stations have managed to hang on. WABC bought itself a few years because a billionaire was willing to lose money playing radio. There are lots of billionaires in San Francisco and so far none of them are willing to throw their money away on an AM station.

That's because we're they're busy losing our their money funding A.I. startups. (We includes me, and I ain't no billionaire. 🤯 )