• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

560

I'll bet you were around in 1987 - What did you think about Roger Ailes putting that guy Rush Limbaugh on the air with a daytime national talk show? Hadn't ABC just got done failing with that idea? Surely that would NEVER work, and the safe approach would have been not to try.
There had been a number of national talk shows, starting with Larry King. So what if he was on in the evening? How about Dr. Laura? Bill Ballance? And so on.

Those that worked had amazing personalities.

And that's the rest of the story...

(The Rest of the Story - Wikipedia)
Without having the willingness to try the new, aren't we watching the business collapse before our eyes? I'll admit that 560 and Cumulus are in a tough spot. The point made above that AM is a Cumeless empty street is a good one. The financial situation of Cumulus is less than great, so affording anything new may be beyond their reach. Even I have stated above, 560 may be too far gone. But there are a lot of malingering decently powered properties across the country that are flirting with .5 ratings and might be able to do more with something different and new. And with appropriate promotion, maybe attract new listeners to the radio.
The issue here is not content, it is being on AM. Many all talk stations are not moving to FM because they know that their format is getting older and older. Sports stations are generally moving to FM, or at least getting a translator which is a good smaller market solution.

Except for niche religion and languages other than English and Spanish, there is no future for any format on AM, even the best of signals.
However, the start of something new has to start somewhere, and that new eventually requires a step beyond the comfortable. No evolution, and I think we know where that leaves FM radio in 20 years.
A format that zero advertisers want is not a good idea. Zero agency accounts. Zero local direct accounts. Maybe a few PI accounts, but they won't get any inquiries.
 
I don't know how many STAs they can throw at 560 every year before the FCC says "You're not seriously getting this thing back on the air, aren't you?" Usually after a few, the license holders throw up their hands and give up if it doesn't look good. (Even the Catholic networks have given up on AM. When that happens, you know you're in trouble.)

The only thing I can volunteer for a format idea is the one I mentioned way earlier on this thread; Lo-Fi. It's an underground sub-genre of Alternative, but perfect for AM radio as most of it is, as implied, lo-fi. And mostly mono too. It's worth a last shot on AM if everything else is hopeless. And there is an active Lo-Fi community in the Bay Area who may be interested. Toss them a bone and see.
 
How do you know it will NEVER work? Didn't someone cite Antioch Radio as being able to make a go of old radio on a small scale?

Five thousand watts at 560 is not a small scale.

Just so we're clear about what Antioch radio is, here's the story. Essential pull-quote:

If you want to listen on AM radio, you can hear ABN at 1610 kHz — but only if you park outside Lichtenaeur’s house. He broadcasts AM using a micro-power Rangemaster 1000 Part 15-compliant transmitter that provides enough power to deliver OTR to the antique and crystal radios in his home.


I'll bet you were around in 1987 -

I was. And from the question you're about to ask, I'll bet you weren't.

What did you think about Roger Ailes putting that guy Rush Limbaugh on the air with a daytime national talk show?

Roger Ailes didn't do that. Roger produced Rush's short-lived TV show. Ed McLaughlin, a former ABC Radio network executive is the one who syndicated Rush for radio.

Hadn't ABC just got done failing with that idea?

ABC didn't begin scaling back Talkradio until 1990. Rush actually began nationally as Owen Spann's replacement on Talkradio for two hours a day, with two additional live hours on WABC.

Surely that would NEVER work, and the safe approach would have been not to try.

On the contrary. First, there's a big difference between a 24-7 network and a three-hour program aimed at middays.

1988 (Rush debuted July 4, 1988) was a time when AM still had a viable audience, but not for music. That meant literally hundreds of stations around the country----several stations in every market----were looking for spoken word programming.

Many wanted to be live and local in morning and afternoon drive, but middays, evenings and overnights were a place where they could carry the right syndication.

The problem with ABC Talkradio was that it took over your station's identity. When KOH in Reno added them in January 1983 (I was doing TV news there at the time), they kept a two-hour local morning newscast. The rest of the day, it didn't sound like KOH anymore.


Without having the willingness to try the new,

Your pitch is shows that have already been on the radio---64 years ago and longer.

aren't we watching the business collapse before our eyes?

If you're talking about AM, you're about 20 years too late to actually be witnessing a collapse. AM in San Francisco is more like a tree falling in the forest with no one there to hear it. It's been dead for years. The roots finally decayed enough for gravity to cause it to fall to the floor of the forest.


I'll admit that 560 and Cumulus are in a tough spot. The point made above that AM is a Cumeless empty street is a good one. The financial situation of Cumulus is less than great, so affording anything new may be beyond their reach. Even I have stated above, 560 may be too far gone. But there are a lot of malingering decently powered properties across the country that are flirting with .5 ratings and might be able to do more with something different and new. And with appropriate promotion, maybe attract new listeners to the radio.

However, the start of something new has to start somewhere, and that new eventually requires a step beyond the comfortable. No evolution, and I think we know where that leaves FM radio in 20 years.

That needs to happen now at FM. The decisions made today---while there's still a meaningful audience---will determine how long that audience sticks around.

But ultimately, time marches on. Technologies become obsolete. You're trying to figure out how to get people to go back to a 100-plus-year-old tech (AM) when there are infinitely better choices. Not gonna happen.
 
Last edited:
Turn 810 into a classic hits station. Now guys don't go throwing any rocks at me. Its just a thought that crossed my mind. Put Sue Hall on 9 to 1PM and Celeste Perry or perhaps Sylvia Chacon on 1 to 5 PM Simulcast SiriusXM'S Phlash Phelps 5 to 9am and Shotgun Tom Kelly on in the evenings. Music pow pow power 810 KSFO. I'm ducking and all the rocks missed me but you did break my kitchen window and scared my German Shepherd. Lol lol. Cumulus ha ha never going to happen. Classic hits well maybe in another world. I can certainly dream with the best of you other dreamers. Lol.

There are dreams and then there are delusions.











Sorry about the dog.
 
The only thing I can volunteer for a format idea is the one I mentioned way earlier on this thread; Lo-Fi. It's an underground sub-genre of Alternative, but perfect for AM radio as most of it is, as implied, lo-fi. And mostly mono too. It's worth a last shot on AM if everything else is hopeless. And there is an active Lo-Fi community in the Bay Area who may be interested. Toss them a bone and see.

Let me tell you why I'm not gonna make fun of that idea.

Because at the very least, you're proposing something that might be relevant to people over 18 but under 55 who live in San Francisco, California in 2026.

I don't think it's commercially viable, but you'd be speaking a recognized language of the current moment.

And, no offense to anybody, but that's what separates actual programmers from "let's play radio" types: Real programmers look to see what will serve a commercially viable, existing audience that isn't being served or that could be served better. Sometimes that's a niche. Sometimes, in some places, it's what we used to call "a hole you could drive a truck through."

But you have to understand---radio isn't cheap. You have to not only manage to pay the bills, but you owe a certain level of security to the people you employ---a good salary, decent benefits and a reasonable assurance that their job, if they do it well, will be there tomorrow.

And if it were as simple as the thing I hear all the time ("There are all these guys in Silicon Valley---they could fund this with the money between their couch cushions"), then AM in San Francisco would be wall-to-wall innovative formats and tech stuff.

And it's not, because they don't care about AM. Or probably radio at all.
 
Last edited:
If people really want to come up with new or outside the box ideas for using this frequency, it can't be based on the traditional way of using radio, with some kind of music or talk format, aimed at listeners with the intent of getting some advertisers to pay for it. That basic model is where the problem lies. So think of ways to use frequencies that have limited ranges and bandwidth for things such as data transmission or renting out for personal usage on a brokerage kind of arrangement. Even then, you're talking about more work than they're interested in now. The idea of radio for the blind is fine too, but they'd have to donate it to a library or foundation, because Cumulus doesn't want to be involved. Much easier to just shut it down and turn in the license.

Clearly the time for format ideas is long past. We may even be past the time for potentially even selling the license. Just shut it down, and we're a few weeks away from that. Unless anyone here wants to make an offer, chances are this is going away. It won't be the first or last.
 
Last edited:
I found a calculation problem when counting down to KZAC's doomsday date of March 4. I've been using one of the Linux dateutils utilities to calculate it. Yesterday the calculation came up at 35 days. Today: same thing:

% dateutils.ddiff today 2026-03-04
35
% dateutils.ddiff 2026-01-28 2026-03-04
35

(Weirdly, that's also the result I got yesterday from that first command.)

I get the same results with iSH on my iPad, which is running a different form of Linux.

But if I count manually on a calendar:
Four (4) days in March
Twenty-eight (28) days in February
Four (4) days in January including today

...which gives 36.

Maybe dateutils isn't including the actual dates passed to ddiff. Or there's an assumption of a 360-day year buried in there somewhere. (For financial calculations, it's common to use a 360-day year, for instance, in determining bond interest payments.) I'm running short on time this morning, but I'll have to read the manpage (Linux version of a help file) to see what's going on. Maybe an environment variable that is or isn't being set?

This is the kind of thing that gives computer programmers nightmares.

Since the KZAC doomsday date is so close, I'd stick with the manual count for now. Thirty-six days as of today until the Super Bowl of STAs.
 
I'll bet you were around in 1987 - What did you think about Roger Ailes putting that guy Rush Limbaugh on the air with a daytime national talk show? Hadn't ABC just got done failing with that idea? Surely that would NEVER work, and the safe approach would have been not to try.

Something to keep in mind is that Rush did not come out of nowhere. He and his shtick had already been successful in two Top-40 markets. What ABC did was found a successful talk host in large markets and brought him up. Did that decision come with risk? Of course, it did. Every programming change or decision comes with risk, but the decision to bring Rush up was a calculated, well-researched, and managed risk. It wasn't some crazy idea out of left field. It had data that it was reasonably likely to be successful backing it up.

Without having the willingness to try the new, aren't we watching the business collapse before our eyes?

I see major irony around shouting "try something new" while suggesting old time radio, which is literally the opposite of new. Who says, however, that radio doesn't try anything new? Broadcasting companies are frequently researching and testing new ideas, formats and sounds. Far more ideas are tested than ever make it onto radio, and only a handful of what gets onto radio is ever successful. Tightly niched and brand new concepts don't get tried very often because they tend not to work. People seem to have the impression that radio programmers are a bunch of lazy people coasting on their reputations and laurels, and that, by and large, is not true.

The financial situation of Cumulus is less than great, so affording anything new may be beyond their reach.

Last I'd heard, Cumulus still has research and digital departments. It's still testing new concepts.

But there are a lot of malingering decently powered properties across the country that are flirting with .5 ratings and might be able to do more with something different and new.

I think you're getting rating and share mixed up. A 0.5 rating would be roughly a 10 share today. That would make for a relatively successful station.

And with appropriate promotion, maybe attract new listeners to the radio.

The problem with radio is less that people don't listen than that people don't use it as often as they used to. People know it's there, and they know what's there. They just have more options and don't prefer it to other sources of audio entertainment like they once did. I'll grant you that younger listeners use it less and are more likely to be exposed when someone older turns it on, but it's less a case of attracting new listeners than it is of getting listeners to stick around.

However, the start of something new has to start somewhere

What you seem to be failing to grasp is that something new has already started, and it's not on the airwaves. That doesn't mean radio as we know it can't be a healthy and profitable niche for the foreseeable future, but the next generation of audio entertainment is already here, is already being used, and has already reached critical mass. As the younger generation ages, it may well decide that free and easy beats paying for a little more flexibility, but the days when 20% of radios were on between 6:00 AM and 6:00 PM aren't likely ever coming back.

, and that new eventually requires a step beyond the comfortable. No evolution, and I think we know where that leaves FM radio in 20 years.

All technology evolves, and that evolution includes sunsetting the old. I do agree with you that radio needs to continue to invest in programming and continue to research new and potentially innovative ideas, but what will ultimately determine whether over-the-air radio remains viable will most likely be whether millennials and Gen Z use it more as they get older. Radio, in some form or another, will continue to exist, but it will almost certainly move to a new distribution system at some point. That's technology; that's evolution. It may not be the current operators at the forefront of that evolution either. If you'd told me 30 years ago that the internet would supplant brick and mortar retail in many areas, I would've believed you. I would, however, have sworn that Sears would've been the company to do it. It mastered the mail order catalog and seemed in good position to continue that work in online distribution. Instead, it was a bookseller that seemed to come out of nowhere.
 
That needs to happen now at FM. The decisions made today---while there's still a meaningful audience---will determine how long that audience sticks around.

But ultimately, time marches on. Technologies become obsolete. You're trying to figure out how to get people to go back to a 100-plus-year-old tech (AM) when there are infinitely better choices. Not gonna happen.
I am not focused on AM. I am suggesting using it as a testing ground to try something new for broadcast radio overall


... I'll bet you weren't.

Roger Ailes didn't do that. Roger produced Rush's short-lived TV show. Ed McLaughlin, a former ABC Radio network executive is the one who syndicated Rush for radio.

ABC didn't begin scaling back Talkradio until 1990. Rush actually began nationally as Owen Spann's replacement on Talkradio for two hours a day, with two additional live hours on WABC.


I was listening to radio in 1987 - a long time ago - and yeah, ya got me - it was Ed McLaughlin who put Rush on the national scene. Forgive me for a hazy memory. But ABC Talkradio had 56 stations when Rush started, I think. From a radio exec's perspective, I'll bet they thought it was not successful. WABC certainly had their misgivings, as I recall they had some kind of deal that Rush did a 'free' two hour local show before his national one, and initially, I am not sure they even carried that. The point is/was somebody took risks to see if a new DAYTIME national talk could be viable. And I would wager that what Rush did/said was unlike anything previous. Smart money back in 1988 would have said no.

I think too many people are focusing on AM or 560 as the reason to try something like this. I am thinking bigger picture, for broadcast radio - FM radio - and the future. The idea of old time radio is that it would be available cheap - money is something radio does not have to experiment with. 560 is/was a decently powered station. Antioch Radio is on a 100 watt signal - it is essentially internet radio. While I would think it is decently successful for the size it is, it is not a real test of something on a real broadcast platform. You wouldn't (at least I wouldn't) blow up an FM music station that is performing well to experiment. Entertainment 560 wouldn't be expected to be in the top 10. But would it do better than .1? More important, would experienced radio people be able to see the results and determine if investing money in this new format with modern programming would be worth it? Unless you had let Rush try his schtick, you would have never known

People keep focusing on 65+ year old programs. For today's average 40 year old, I bet they have never heard them - for that audience they would be new. Come to think of it, there are in some of the OTR radio catalogues I have lying around, new radio mystery type programs. For me, those would be new. Can I go buy the CD's for them? I sure could. But the ability to hear them on the radio would be easier as I am driving around. And the producers of those shows would probably be agreeable to the exposure broadcast could give them. I would bet there are a lot of people for who the current offerings on radio don't grab them, and even if they do like the music, the over commercial'd broadcast hours are shoving them to the internet. I am suggesting try something new, and with the idea I have for 560, it could be tested for not too much money.

An experienced radio programmer here has stated that he is in the advertising business, not the entertainment business. But if the audience goes away to the internet, isn't he losing the opportunity to advertise to them? Are the revenues on I-Heart and Audacy apps smaller than broadcast radio? Isn't the big money on OTA? Don't give up the ship - alter the course.
 
I do agree with you that radio needs to continue to invest in programming and continue to research new and potentially innovative ideas, but what will ultimately determine whether over-the-air radio remains viable will most likely be whether millennials and Gen Z use it more as they get older.

It really doesn't matter if they can't buy OTA receivers or there's no marketing push around those devices, and that won't come from radio companies. That's why those companies aren't limiting themselves to OTA broadcasting, and instead investing in other platforms where there is an audience and where devices are being marketed aggressively.
 
An experienced radio programmer here has stated that he is in the advertising business, not the entertainment business. But if the audience goes away to the internet, isn't he losing the opportunity to advertise to them?

Not if he does the smart thing and follows them to the media they use. There is no law that requires radio companies to restrict their content to AM & FM. So the thing these companies are doing is focusing more on the internet. It's where the audience is.

Remember: These companies don't own these frequencies. They just own licenses. The government owns the spectrum. So it's no big loss to walk away from a money-losing platform. If you are serious about trying something new, stop wasting time on hundred year old technology.
 
I see major irony around shouting "try something new" while suggesting old time radio, which is literally the opposite of new. Who says, however, that radio doesn't try anything new? Broadcasting companies are frequently researching and testing new ideas, formats and sounds. Far more ideas are tested than ever make it onto radio, and only a handful of what gets onto radio is ever successful. Tightly niched and brand new concepts don't get tried very often because they tend not to work. People seem to have the impression that radio programmers are a bunch of lazy people coasting on their reputations and laurels, and that, by and large, is not true.


Last I'd heard, Cumulus still has research and digital departments. It's still testing new concepts.


I think you're getting rating and share mixed up. A 0.5 rating would be roughly a 10 share today. That would make for a relatively successful station.
Broadcasting companies are frequently researching and testing new ideas, formats and sounds.
If they are, I sure haven't heard them OTA. Since the debut of Sportstalk radio, I would be interested to see a listing of what has been tried to improve the offerings. Music DJ's have been cut back and commercial loads increased. All Comedy Radio, Business Radio, Podcast Radio I have heard and they all leave a lot to be desired. Sports as a format seems to be the last new idea tried that has stuck.

Last I'd heard, Cumulus still has research and digital departments. It's still testing new concepts.
I thought Cumulus (and I-Heart and Audacy) are very much in debt and don't have money to invest in much of anything, Cutbacks on staff seem to be the norm.

I think you're getting rating and share mixed up. A 0.5 rating would be roughly a 10 share today. That would make for a relatively successful station.

I am the amateur here. There is a lot I don't know about share/cume/rating points. From a business perspective I am pretty sure a 1.6 on a Sports Talk station is much better than a 3.0 on a talk station. But I have not heard anybody on any of these boards think highly of anybody getting a .5. For the 6+ would it be correct that anything under 1.0 is a cause for concern?
 
I thought Cumulus (and I-Heart and Audacy) are very much in debt and don't have money to invest in much of anything, Cutbacks on staff seem to be the norm.

Absolutely, they're redirecting resources from money-losing broadcasting to growth areas such as podcasting and other digital options. Very soon, digital will account for more than half of their revenue. They own some of the most popular podcasts available. So yes, they're investing in content. In fact, Audacy just announced something about that today.



My takeaway is it's less about local markets and more about national content that uses multiple platforms to reach audiences.
 


Back
Top Bottom