560

[cc333]

Just yesterday, this thread rolled over to 57 pages.

Now it's at page 58, and it's pushing 59!

So, as to the original subject (whatever that is anymore): does anyone know what Cumulus is going to do with 560?

Speculation just inflates page counts. Does anyone have any facts about 560, aside from the obvious?

c

 

[Mark Roberts]

Speculation just inflates page counts. Does anyone have any facts about 560, aside from the obvious?

What we know:

1. Cumulus will have to file...if they remember it this time...for a renewal of the silent STA on or before March 25. Any explanation may or may not reveal future plans. Likely not.
2. If KZAC is not back on the air by the start of the day August 13, the license is cancelled.
3. Cumulus is going through another restructuring.

Everything else is a bagatelle right now.

 

[Mark Roberts]

I absolutely remember. I posted there. In fact, my posts got me my first freelance writing gig, for @BossRadioDJ 's pioneering RadioDigest (the site is long gone, but I'm still grateful for the break, the two cents per word and the lifelong friendship that followed).

I'm sorry, but I don't remember you. If you did that during the late 1990s and early 2000s, that lack of remembering may be because I had a lot going on during those years.

I was in Chicago 1996-1998, and posted a lot to chi.media. I even ended up with kind of a stalker. I also posted to rec.radio.broadcasting...Bill Pfeiffer was a friend...until Bill died in a head-on crash. That happened right in the middle of my move to San Francisco and it was hard to tell what was going on with r.r.b at the time.

You can tell David I remember him best for his recommendation when I needed to get my speakers re-coned. He recommended a place in Dublin. I took the speakers there, got them repaired, and I'm still using them today.

I think the KFOG audience (even those with fond memories) had moved on in a more realistic fashion than the KGO fanbase.

You certainly don't hear people pining for it the way you do for KGO. I think Bonneville was trying to capitalize on residual KFOG nostalgia a little bit with "Highway 1 Radio" on KOIT-HD2. While KEXC technically falls into much the same category as KFOG did, the AAA category is notoriously broad. Consequently, KEXC is really a whole other type of station compared to the old KFOG.

I get it that some people were really, really attached to KGO. It must have been a spectacular station in its time. I wasn't around for most of that. But a lot of things changed.

He was indeed correct. What I can't figure out is who these people are who want to jump into radio at the moment, but at least some of the owners of Cumulus would seem to have found a few suckers, I mean interested parties, to take equity in the company.

As has been stated in the thread specifically about the Cumulus bankruptcy, this may be a clean-up action in furtherance of a bigger goal, possibly including offloading the chain onto someone else.

FM is now roughly 80 year old technology. It still has life and probably isn't going away anytime soon, but, at some point, it will bite the dust, too.

I will quibble a bit here: yes, FM dates to the 1940s, but it more or less sat on the shelf for 25 years until circumstances changed. So I'd say that its actual useful life so far has been about 55-60 years, depending on location. But it's facing stresses, too. The main stressor is the same as for any form of broadcasting: it's linear, while listening preferences of newer generations tends toward on-demand: they want what they want, when they want it. And some may want more control over their listening experience, judging by recent stories claiming to spot a trend of acquiring iPods and similar players as a result of streaming services' withdrawing some songs from distribution.

 

[Signal Geek]

I was just in the Toronto area for a conference, and their radio dial seems to illustrate the point in trying to make. I’ll try to articulate that here.

590am - local sports talk with good reception around the area and interesting shows. Worth listening to even if it’s on AM.
640am - News/talk. Also good, worth listening to.
680am - all news.
740 - Oldies (not going to make any argument for music on AM, but it was cool to see).
860 - CBC radio in French. Not my thing, but it’s there for French speakers and seems to have a following.
1010 - news/talk.
1050 - TSN sports talk (interesting shows and perspectives with an alternative take than 590).

Being the Signal Geek, what struck me is that 6 of these 8 signals are the exact same frequencies as San Francisco stations.

I now return you to more interesting comments

 

[ted chittenden]

As Michael points out, broadcasting companies aren't interested in the outlying areas as they really can't sell them, or at least they can't sell them easily. I do actually agree with you that AM can sound quite good when the engineers put their time and effort into it, but none of that helps if significant portions of the market can't hear it. While San Francisco has a few AM's that should be able to cover the market, it's a small number, and most markets aren't lucky enough, if you will, to have that many AM's that cover them in full. Remember, AM is 100 year old technology that was designed for an urban plan that no longer exists. We can tell the audience what it needs, but it has already made up its mind. It has decided that's not AM. FM is now roughly 80 year old technology. It still has life and probably isn't going away anytime soon, but, at some point, it will bite the dust, too.

Once FM goes away, then the entire premmesis of broadcasting, namely transmitting music and information to a broad audience, will completely disappear with it. Internet radio won't be able to handle such broad audiences, especially those stations that feature music, and I predict that most people below the middle class will not be able to afford the fees necessary to make satellite radio a mass alternative to the loss of AM and FM radio. (Of course, this loss of a broad audience for radio broadcasters has been going on for a long time now but the availability of satellite and streaming services has hastened the ending of the concept.)

 

[davideduardo]

Once FM goes away, then the entire premmesis of broadcasting, namely transmitting music and information to a broad audience, will completely disappear with it. Internet radio won't be able to handle such broad audiences, especially those stations that feature music, and I predict that most people below the middle class will not be able to afford the fees necessary to make satellite radio a mass alternative to the loss of AM and FM radio. (Of course, this loss of a broad audience for radio broadcasters has been going on for a long time now but the availability of satellite and streaming services has hastened the ending of the concept.)

We are already seeing OTA stations getting sizable streaming audiences. There will be a market for streamed ad-supported audio services. Yes, one will need a subscription but in many areas of the nation basic cellular service is available through grants or low cost subscriptions.

(Satellite radio is not a viable alternative today. The signals don't penetrate buildings very well, and even in areas with high trees it is difficult. And forget portable devices, unless you also have the satellite service's streaming option.)

 

[davideduardo]

Once FM goes away, then the entire premmesis of broadcasting, namely transmitting music and information to a broad audience, will completely disappear with it. Internet radio won't be able to handle such broad audiences, especially those stations that feature music,

Yet streams can be so plentiful that there will be one just for you, or you can assemble your own.

and I predict that most people below the middle class will not be able to afford the fees necessary to make satellite radio a mass alternative to the loss of AM and FM radio. (Of course, this loss of a broad audience for radio broadcasters has been going on for a long time now but the availability of satellite and streaming services has hastened the ending of the concept.)

We are already seeing OTA stations getting sizable streaming audiences. There will be a market for streamed ad-supported audio services. Yes, one will need a subscription but in many areas of the nation basic cellular service is available through grants or low cost subscriptions.

(Satellite radio is not a viable alternative today. The signals don't penetrate buildings very well, and even in areas with high trees it is difficult. And forget portable devices, unless you also have the satellite service's streaming option.)

 

[fybush]

Reading through the BK filing, the 560 site lease is one of several that Cumulus says it will break as part of the restructuring.

It won't be coming back.

 

[davideduardo]

Reading through the BK filing, the 560 site lease is one of several that Cumulus says it will break as part of the restructuring.

It won't be coming back.

And this is what should be listed as the title for the discussion: "It won't be coming back".

560 is one of the 5 or 6 best AM signals in the market (560, 610, 680, 740, 810), If there is nothing that can be profitably done with it, that means that any lesser facility is worth even less. A few may survive a while with ethnic or religious programming, be we are even seeing that those are finding homes either on FM or the internet.

As said before, were translators allowed permanent status where the associated AM were no longer needed, we'd see the number of AMs drop by well over a thousand... maybe more. (We'd also likely see the end of HD Radio)

 

[davideduardo]

Once FM goes away, then the entire premmesis of broadcasting, namely transmitting music and information to a broad audience, will completely disappear with it. Internet radio won't be able to handle such broad audiences, especially those stations that feature music,

Yet streams can be so plentiful that there will be one just for you, or you can assemble your own.

and I predict that most people below the middle class will not be able to afford the fees necessary to make satellite radio a mass alternative to the loss of AM and FM radio. (Of course, this loss of a broad audience for radio broadcasters has been going on for a long time now but the availability of satellite and streaming services has hastened the ending of the concept.)

We are already seeing OTA stations getting sizable streaming audiences. There will be a market for streamed ad-supported audio services. Yes, one will need a subscription but in many areas of the nation basic cellular service is available through grants or low cost subscriptions.

(Satellite radio is not a viable alternative today. The signals don't penetrate buildings very well, and even in areas with high trees it is difficult. And forget portable devices, unless you also have the satellite service's streaming option.)

 

[fybush]

SXM isn't a "satellite radio" service these days. It's a content creator and distributor that figured out (quite correctly) that the programming it creates can and should reach listeners over multiple platforms.

Even in my car, it's seamless going from getting signals from the satellite or terrestrial repeaters to connecting to my phone and streaming. Unless I'm looking at the icon on the screen, I don't even know. And it can then follow me into the house as a stream.

 

[davideduardo]

SXM isn't a "satellite radio" service these days. It's a content creator and distributor that figured out (quite correctly) that the programming it creates can and should reach listeners over multiple platforms.

Yet they were significantly driven into this by the fact that satellite signals don't do well indoors, and they were losing "first choice" preferences to streamers. Add in modern dashboards with streaming, and that was a big challenge to them.

Even in my car, it's seamless going from getting signals from the satellite or terrestrial repeaters to connecting to my phone and streaming. Unless I'm looking at the icon on the screen, I don't even know. And it can then follow me into the house as a stream.

But the real issue for many is that the satellite channels are one-for-many, and often play songs each of us don't much care for. While SiriusXM has cut down the old Lee Abrams extended playlists "because satellite listeners want more variety". Actually, satellite listeners wanted no commercials, which is why all the music channels done in-house eliminated them after about 2 years.

 

[michael hagerty]

I'm sorry, but I don't remember you. If you did that during the late 1990s and early 2000s, that lack of remembering may be because I had a lot going on during those years.

I did, but it was probably 1994-96, maybe '97. As I said, RadioDigest was short-lived and by fall of '97, I'd fallen into auto reviews and probably dialed back my participation on ba.broadcast. Most of what I posted there was (not unlike here) answering questions about Bay Area radio history. I'd been gone from the region since '84, so I left the more (then) current stuff to people who were in a position to her about it.

I was in Chicago 1996-1998, and posted a lot to chi.media. I even ended up with kind of a stalker. I also posted to rec.radio.broadcasting...Bill Pfeiffer was a friend...until Bill died in a head-on crash. That happened right in the middle of my move to San Francisco and it was hard to tell what was going on with r.r.b at the time.

I remember Bill and the crash. Tragic.

You can tell David I remember him best for his recommendation when I needed to get my speakers re-coned. He recommended a place in Dublin. I took the speakers there, got them repaired, and I'm still using them today.

I'm spending the day with David on Saturday---I'll tell him.

I get it that some people were really, really attached to KGO. It must have been a spectacular station in its time. I wasn't around for most of that. But a lot of things changed.

Here's how good KGO was: I was not a talk radio guy in the early 80s. When I lived in Reno (1977-84), I'd probably drive down to San Francisco and spend a day at least once a month (weather in the Sierra permitting). I'd listen to KFRC, KNBR, KIOI and KYUU. By the time I was driving back to Reno, I was fairly burned out on the current hits, so, usually around Fairfield, I'd punch up KGO just for a palate cleanser, figuring I'd go back to KFRC in 20 minutes or so.

More often than not, I was still listening to KGO when I got back to Reno, and sometimes, the topic was so good I'd stay in the car in my carport until the next break. I was in my middle 20s. That radio station was not aimed at me---but it was just so consistently excellent.

 

[fordranger797]

Here's how good KGO was: I was not a talk radio guy in the early 80s. When I lived in Reno (1977-84), I'd probably drive down to San Francisco and spend a day at least once a month (weather in the Sierra permitting). I'd listen to KFRC, KNBR, KIOI and KYUU. By the time I was driving back to Reno, I was fairly burned out on the current hits, so, usually around Fairfield, I'd punch up KGO just for a palate cleanser, figuring I'd go back to KFRC in 20 minutes or so.

More often than not, I was still listening to KGO when I got back to Reno, and sometimes, the topic was so good I'd stay in the car in my carport until the next break. I was in my middle 20s. That radio station was not aimed at me---but it was just so consistently excellent.

Not a comment on radio per se, but I wanted to reiterate how lucky you are to have lived through those times. We've discussed this before in other threads, but that kind of moment just doesn't happen these days. So if you're a younger person interested in radio today, the situation is pretty bleak.

 

[cc333]

@michael hagerty I agree with you re: KGO.

Often, on the long drive home from the east bay to the north bay mountains, we'd listen to KGO, and often couldn't turn it off. This was 2005-ish through at least 2009-ish or whenever they tried that ill-conceived "All News some of the time" experiment.

Of course, by then, its ratings were faltering. I guess people simply lost interest, because while the age demographics were getting up there, most hadn't yet aged out fully.

Introduction of the PPM probably had a lot to do with it, too. KGO did fine under the old diary system, but when the PPMs arrived, it's ratings sank badly.

Not a comment on radio per se, but I wanted to reiterate how lucky you are to have lived through those times. We've discussed this before in other threads, but that kind of moment just doesn't happen these days. So if you're a younger person interested in radio today, the situation is pretty bleak.

I feel fortunate that I was able to enjoy at least the tail end of that era. But yes, the situation now is very bleak for young people interested in radio. Especially for AM. FM, as has been mentioned here many times, still has some life for it, but it's trending in the same direction, and will probably suffer the same fate as AM eventually if things keep on as they are.

c

 

[davideduardo]

Here's how good KGO was: I was not a talk radio guy in the early 80s. When I lived in Reno (1977-84), I'd probably drive down to San Francisco and spend a day at least once a month (weather in the Sierra permitting). I'd listen to KFRC, KNBR, KIOI and KYUU. By the time I was driving back to Reno, I was fairly burned out on the current hits, so, usually around Fairfield, I'd punch up KGO just for a palate cleanser, figuring I'd go back to KFRC in 20 minutes or so.

More often than not, I was still listening to KGO when I got back to Reno, and sometimes, the topic was so good I'd stay in the car in my carport until the next break. I was in my middle 20s. That radio station was not aimed at me---but it was just so consistently excellent.

Regularly while I was programming KTNQ's talk format in LA in the later 90's I would listen to KGO. I even had the KTNQ airstaff listen, too. My point was that the way that Jack Swanson created both individual personality but a marquee stationality was marvelous. The way the calls were dropped often but naturally, the way promos were written, the way hosts got quickly into a subject and "delivered the beef" in entertaining were all marvelous. The station just flowed... it did not seem contrived or scripted.

 

[fordranger797]

@michael hagerty I agree with you re: KGO.

Often, on the long drive home from the east bay to the north bay mountains, we'd listen to KGO, and often couldn't turn it off. This was 2005-ish through at least 2009-ish or whenever they tried that ill-conceived "All News some of the time" experiment.

Of course, by then, its ratings were faltering. I guess people simply lost interest, because while the age demographics were getting up there, most hadn't yet aged out fully.

Introduction of the PPM probably had a lot to do with it, too. KGO did fine under the old diary system, but when the PPMs arrived, it's ratings sank badly.


I feel fortunate that I was able to enjoy at least the tail end of that era. But yes, the situation now is very bleak for young people interested in radio. Especially for AM. FM, as has been mentioned here many times, still has some life for it, but it's trending in the same direction, and will probably suffer the same fate as AM eventually if things keep on as they are.

c

Tell me about it. I’m a 30 year old with a MBA and what many people consider a “good job.” What do I think about all day? The 10 years I spent in radio doing something I loved. Can’t say I feel the same way about what I do now. It’s unfortunate that those 10 years I had were probably the end of it, since radio jobs aren’t as plentiful these days. It was even better back when I started in 2013/2014. I have plenty of peers who will say “oh nobody listens to the radio anymore.” Tell me about it. Otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting here on Microsoft Excel trying to figure out the answer to something so mind numbingly boring lol

 

[michael hagerty]

Not a comment on radio per se, but I wanted to reiterate how lucky you are to have lived through those times. We've discussed this before in other threads, but that kind of moment just doesn't happen these days. So if you're a younger person interested in radio today, the situation is pretty bleak.

Yeah. I'm really blessed. My wife and I were talking about life in general the other day ( but radio is how we met) and I said I would not have wanted to be born any earlier or any later. I landed in exactly the right window, and that especially applies to radio and TV.

I went back to CapRadio yesterday for the first time since I retired 26 months ago. A friend and former colleague at KFBK has a high-school sophomore nephew who's considering journalism for a college major and a career, so I set up a visit for them and then tagged along.

Even given the challenges that organization has had to endure (largely because of a former General Manager now facing felony fraud and embezzlement charges), that was four of the best years of my life, and it was great to be back there for an hour or so and see how people I love are building a great organization back.

As for my friend's nephew, my friend and I were honest with him about journalism---in general and broadcast journalism in particular, or just broadcasting---as a career.

My biggest advice was to have a fallback. I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't, because there were points along the way in 53 years where I would have used it, and then I would have missed out on some of the best experiences and relationships in my life.

But NOBODY going in today (assuming they can get in) can afford to wing it the way I did. The odds are increasing that you won't survive a layoff and the opportunities for next acts are shrinking.

 

[michael hagerty]

Tell me about it. I’m a 30 year old with a MBA and what many people consider a “good job.” What do I think about all day? The 10 years I spent in radio doing something I loved. Can’t say I feel the same way about what I do now. It’s unfortunate that those 10 years I had were probably the end of it, since radio jobs aren’t as plentiful these days. It was even better back when I started in 2013/2014. I have plenty of peers who will say “oh nobody listens to the radio anymore.” Tell me about it. Otherwise I wouldn’t be sitting here on Microsoft Excel trying to figure out the answer to something so mind numbingly boring lol

I honestly don't know what I would do if I were starting out today in my teens or 20s.

First of all, radio probably wouldn't even be on my radar. Most of the influences that made me want to do it are dead and haven't been on the air in 25 years or more. I would never have heard of them.

And, because there's no point in talking if nobody's listening (Rod Stewart, "Young Turks", 1981, but that's not important now), why would I choose to communicate via a medium people have largely abandoned?

TV was appealing to me in the 1980s because it had the resources to allow me to tell stories from all over the country---even at a local station. I've had the chance to chat with a couple of people who have what are regarded as really good TV news gigs today, and most of that has evaporated, along with the compensation.

I'd probably be looking at the most sustainable path as a writer and a journalist, whether that was written word digital, spoken word streaming or whatever.

Ultimately, the job to me was never about the medium I used, but about the communication itself, which is why I find writing now as satisfying as I found broadcasting.

 

[PTBoardOp93]

TV was appealing to me in the 1980s because it had the resources to allow me to tell stories from all over the country---even at a local station. I've had the chance to chat with a couple of people who have what are regarded as really good TV news gigs today, and most of that has evaporated, along with the compensation.

It's pretty wild to think how much that has changed in pretty short order. In the 90s and 00s, the "Live by Satellite" truck got some serious miles put on it. It wasn't uncommon for local reporters to go to Washington DC to cover events of local importance. I lived in the very small market of Terre Haute, and the Pentagon was considering closing a local military base. This was probably the end of the Clinton administration. WTHI-TV sent a reporter to Washington to cover the hearing.

WTHI-TV couldn't do that now, because they have zero reporters.