560

[Weiserguy]

Wanting to buy an AM radio station in San Francisco in 2025 is kinda like wanting to start a chain of VHS rental stores today.

It makes zero sense for *me* to buy 560 and attempt to launch a new business and format from scratch. Doesn't matter how much money or experience I might have, it would be a fool's errand.

However, if I already own an AM station in the market, and I'm committed to my business, the opportunity to upgrade my niche format to a superior signal might not be a fool's errand. All the other components are already there, and there is, assumedly, an existing audience that I'm able to monetize, so what 560 gets me is an improved signal and the possibility of expanding that audience in a bigger footprint. Under that scenario, for the right price, why wouldn't a competitor want to consider a more valuable piece of spectrum real estate? KEST or KVTO or KZDG, as a few "graveyard" examples.

 

[Mark Roberts]

However, if I already own an AM station in the market, and I'm committed to my business, the opportunity to upgrade my niche format to a superior signal might not be a fool's errand. All the other components are already there, and there is, assumedly, an existing audience that I'm able to monetize, so what 560 gets me is an improved signal and the possibility of expanding that audience in a bigger footprint. Under that scenario, for the right price, why wouldn't a competitor want to consider a more valuable piece of spectrum real estate? KEST or KVTO or KZDG, as a few "graveyard" examples.

Consider it they might, but there have been past opportunities to take such an upgrade path (1260, 1310) and it hasn't happened.

KVTO and KEST program primarily to audiences that are in San Francisco or nearby, or Oakland or nearby. Added coverage isn't likely to get them very much. KZDG is a little different in terms of the scale of the calculation but the core question is still the same: what's it worth to ya?

 

[K.M. Richards]

And to repeat what has been said but not taken into @Weiserguy's calculations is the tower lease. We have been presuming that the tower maintenance expenses are part of what makes 560 less desirable for Cumulus to continue operating on that frequency.

So any sale would either include the real estate or include an ongoing lease to Cumulus to continue transmitting from that site. So, as @Mark Roberts said, is it worth that additional cost to upgrade one of the graveyard stations if the existing signal already goes where the target demo is?

 

[michael hagerty]

... if I already own an AM station in the market, and I'm committed to my business, the opportunity to upgrade my niche format to a superior signal might not be a fool's errand. All the other components are already there, and there is, assumedly, an existing audience that I'm able to monetize, so what 560 gets me is an improved signal and the possibility of expanding that audience in a bigger footprint.

Maybe.

That was Cumulus' thinking in moving KSFO's intellectual property from 560 to the far superior 810. 50,000 watts vs. 5,000, an audience and format already in place. Just flip a switch.

They've gone from a 1.8 on 560 to a 1.3 on 810.

 

[davideduardo]

Maybe.

That was Cumulus' thinking in moving KSFO's intellectual property from 560 to the far superior 810. 50,000 watts vs. 5,000, an audience and format already in place. Just flip a switch.

What does make 810 seem "better" is that, although a worse frequency, it is directional up and down, covering the whole market very well.

 

[TheBigA]

They've gone from a 1.8 on 560 to a 1.3 on 810.

You can lead a horse to water. They got the 1.8 in February, after the switch to 810. In December, at 560, they got a .8:

0.8

1.4

1.8

1.6

1.3

1.3

KSFO-AM

810 KSFO

Conservative Talk

Cumulus

121,60

 

[adradio]

Competition on the AM band from Giants Baseball likely is the reason for KSFO ratings decline.

 

[TomásEstefan]

The line of authority is the line of jurisdiction. That is sometimes as simple as "within the city limits" and "unincorporated areas of the county."

For example, David, since you and I both know Los Angeles well, the LAPD is responsible for the city limits of L.A. That's everything in purple on this map:

View attachment 9570


The places not in purple are a mix of cities that have their own police departments (Santa Monica, Inglewood, Long Beach), and unincorporated areas of the county that are not within a city limit. Those unincorporated areas are in pink on the map below:



View attachment 9572

The L.A. County Sheriff's Office is responsible for law enforcement in the unincorporated areas.

But it's more complicated than that, because there are 40 incoprated cities in L.A. County that have chosen not to have their own police departments, but to contract with the Los Angeles County Sheriff for law enforcement within their city limits:

http://shq.lasdnews.net/content/uoa/CLB/CLEB%20Municipalities.pdf

Again, though, the agencies know what's their jurisdiction and what's not and in a situation where LASO might be a block away from an emergency not in their jurisdiciton, mutual aid agreements allow them to respond.

They might be first on the scene, but as soon as the city police arrive, the PD assumes jurisdiction and thus control in terms of media access.

Beyond that, I just want to say that @cc333 , @Weiserguy and @Mediafrog+ all are correct, but there is one other distinguishing feature of County Sheriffs---they are elected officials.

Most city police chiefs are appointed by the City Manager, Mayor or City Council, but Sheriffs run for office. As @Weiserguy pointed out, Sheriffs run the jails---and federal funding only goes up with the jail population, so many believe there is an immediate inherent conflict of interest. Incarceration benefits a sheriff.

County sheriff's offices are much more frequently targets of corruption and brutality investigations than municipal police departments. A CBS News investigation last year found county sheriff's officers are three times more likely to kill a citizen than municipal police officers:

County sheriffs wield lethal power, face little accountability: "A failure of democracy"

More people were killed by U.S. law enforcement in 2023 than any other year in the past decade — and it's increasingly happening in small towns and rural areas.

www.cbsnews.com

That top map is riddled with errors: West Hollywood is a separate incorporated city with that uses the LA Co. Sheriff for law enforcement, and nextdoor (from West Holly (but not shown) is the City of Beverly Hills that has its own Police Dept. The City of Calabasas also uses the LA Co.Sheriff for law enforcement, and The City of San Fernando has its own police dept.

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

Competition on the AM band from Giants Baseball likely is the reason for KSFO ratings decline.

The AM band has hardly any cume. There’s not much reason to even go there in the Bay Area unless you’re into conservative talk, religion or are part of an ethnic group. The two biggest AM stations have FM simulcasts.

Both Los Angeles and Sacramento still have stand alone AM stations that have local programming. By stand alone, I mean no FM simulcasts.

In fact Los Angeles only has baseball on AM.

 

[TomásEstefan]

The AM band has hardly any cume. There’s not much reason to even go there in the Bay Area unless you’re into conservative talk, religion or are part of an ethnic group. The two biggest AM stations have FM simulcasts.

Both Los Angeles and Sacramento still have stand alone AM stations that have local programming. By stand alone, I mean no FM simulcasts.

In fact Los Angeles only has baseball on AM.

The Dodgers (570 KLAC) can also be heard on KYSR 98.7 HD-2, for the handful of people even aware that their car radio might actually tune in"HD" Radio. and assuming they know what it is...

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

The Dodgers (570 KLAC) can also be heard on KYSR 98.7 HD-2, for the handful of people even aware that their car radio might actually tune in"HD" Radio. and assuming they know what it is...

My guess is that most people don’t. I wish HD sub channels were more popular, but after 19-20 years nothing has really come of it other than a loophole to feed translators.

My dearly departed friend and mentor, Steve Rivers wrote an article about HD radio calling it “General Custar’s Last Stand”

 

[davideduardo]

The AM band has hardly any cume.

Wrong. It actually has over 30% cume of all adults... and that is after I made a "mental adjustment" for stations listed as "AM" but which have full FM simulcasts.

What AM has is relatively low TSL, but the cume, considering how few full signals there are, is quite high.

There’s not much reason to even go there in the Bay Area unless you’re into conservative talk, religion or are part of an ethnic group. The two biggest AM stations have FM simulcasts.

And there are markets like LA that are over 70% "ethnic" in the sales demos.

Both Los Angeles and Sacramento still have stand alone AM stations that have local programming. By stand alone, I mean no FM simulcasts.

And quite a few do very well, from several Spanish specialty formats to the Farsi station to the Vietnamese one.

In fact Los Angeles only has baseball on AM.

And it is on a very big signal. The biggest issue with AM is that there are so few stations that cover full market areas. San Francisco, for example, has three (680, 740, 810) and Cleveland has just one.

 

[TomásEstefan]

My guess is that most people don’t. I wish HD sub channels were more popular, but after 19-20 years nothing has really come of it other than a loophole to feed translators.

My dearly departed friend and mentor, Steve Rivers wrote an article about HD radio calling it “General Custar’s Last Stand”

It just might be...

 

[TomásEstefan]

What does make 810 seem "better" is that, although a worse frequency, it is directional up and down, covering the whole market very well.

Having a saltwater ground plane by being virtually in the middle of the SF Bay helps immeasurably, too.

 

[Street Novelist]

Competition on the AM band from Giants Baseball likely is the reason for KSFO ratings decline.

What?

 

[cc333]

What?

@adradio was probably referring to KNBR on 680, which, along with (I guess?) KTCT 1050 and KNBR-FM 104.5 is the main SF Giants Radio Network affiliate.

When it comes to sports radio in the SF Bay Area (especially where the Giants are concerned), they are very dominant in the ratings and thus are very difficult to compete against.

It helps that they also have a flamethrower of a signal on 680 (50,000 watts unlimited 24/7). 560's comparatively puny 5,000 watts couldn't compete even if it wanted to.

c

 

[K.M. Richards]

That top map is riddled with errors: West Hollywood is a separate incorporated city with that uses the LA Co. Sheriff for law enforcement, and nextdoor (from West Holly (but not shown) is the City of Beverly Hills that has its own Police Dept. The City of Calabasas also uses the LA Co.Sheriff for law enforcement, and The City of San Fernando has its own police dept.

Maps are only as accurate as the person drawing them makes it. I note that is not an official map from the City of Los Angeles.

I would go looking for an accurate map, but that was a sidebar discussion so I'm leaving that sleeping dog to lie.

 

[semoochie]

Wrong. It actually has over 30% cume of all adults... and that is after I made a "mental adjustment" for stations listed as "AM" but which have full FM simulcasts.

What AM has is relatively low TSL, but the cume, considering how few full signals there are, is quite high.

And there are markets like LA that are over 70% "ethnic" in the sales demos.

And quite a few do very well, from several Spanish specialty formats to the Farsi station to the Vietnamese one.

And it is on a very big signal. The biggest issue with AM is that there are so few stations that cover full market areas. San Francisco, for example, has three (680, 740, 810) and Cleveland has just one.

Am I to understand that 610 no longer has full market coverage? They used to be one of only a few SF stations that penetrated Sacramento!

 

[K.M. Richards]

The AM band has hardly any cume. There’s not much reason to even go there in the Bay Area unless you’re into conservative talk, religion or are part of an ethnic group. The two biggest AM stations have FM simulcasts.

And quite a few do very well, from several Spanish specialty formats to the Farsi station to the Vietnamese one.

You left out the ones programming in Korean and Chinese.

 

[K.M. Richards]

Am I to understand that 610 no longer has full market coverage? They used to be one of only a few SF stations that penetrated Sacramento!

We haven't paid attention to 610 since it went religious.