60's and 70's Classic Hits with some 50's?

[davideduardo]

PD's should be getting paid the big bucks for using their knowledge of their target market and adapting their playlist to reach that market. But knowing your market is not as easy as subscribing to a random sample of passive listeners.

A random sample of listeners (a random sample includes passsive and actives) is vastly better than a PD who guesses. The problem is that it is very expensive to do... a music test for 500 songs will run in the $30 thousand and up range. Knowing the maket will help in many ways, but knowing the listeners' taste is much better.

 

[warm590]

FYI- David Eduardo was one of the naysayers who said that CBS-FM would never switch back from Jack to the oldies format. And he will chime in here and say, "well they didn't", and they went to classic hits.... well whatever you want to call it, it kicks butt. Mgt had the stones to admit they were wrong when the went to a jack format. It's the closest to an oldies station in NYC until somebody picks up the ball and runs with it to play some 50's and 60's stuff, and somebody will.... Sure, they did their homework for their switch; but the transition they made the day they switched was mindblowing, and oh by the way, their ratings skyrocketed. And I was there to serve Mr. Eduardo an ample portion of humble pie!!!


Kevlar suit on, bring on the napalm....

warm590 ;D

 

[davideduardo]

FYI- David Eduardo was one of the naysayers who said that CBS-FM would never switch back from Jack to the oldies format. And he will chime in here and say, "well they didn't", and they went to classic hits....

Correct. Ot's classic hits all the way. CBS is now about 70% 70's with a bit of late 60's and some early 80's tossed in. It is not oldies, which the industry, the trade magazines and us programmers define as a 60's based format. Even Arbitron distinguishes between Oldies and Classic Hits in the market report format descriptors.

well whatever you want to call it, it kicks butt.

Actually, it does only a tiny, tiny bit better in 25-54 than the Jack format did... the move was all PR. The root issue, of course, was that as an oldies station, CBS could not sell to agencies as they once had, and revenues were off enormously.

Mgt had the stones to admit they were wrong when the went to a jack format. It's the closest to an oldies station in NYC until somebody picks up the ball and runs with it to play some 50's and 60's stuff, and somebody will....

Fat chance, unless CBS moves more 80's. The issue is that any music format that gets mostly 55+ audience can't work in the top US markets.

Sure, they did their homework for their switch; but the transition they made the day they switched was mindblowing, and oh by the way, their ratings skyrocketed.

No, the ratings peaked for a couple of months, and are now comparable with what Jack had in the sales demos.

And I was there to serve Mr. Eduardo an ample portion of humble pie!!!

In your dreams. Since you don't have access to Arbitron, I understand your plight of being unarmed in this discussion, but radio is about sales demos, and CBS-FM today has about the same 25-54 it had as Jack. The change was all for image.

 

[landtuna]

Sumbuddy Sed: "The issue is that any music format that gets mostly 55+ audience can't work in the top US markets. "

Everything I've read says otherwise. News reports going back many years have always admitted the Boomers have been driving all consumer based economics in this country since their birth. Since the earliest of them is now reaching their early 60's I have the feeling that if radio ignores this enormous population, most of whom were raised during the "oldies" time period, it will be a huge mistake.

 

[surfdude]

Landtuna said..."I have the feeling that if radio ignores this enormous population, most of whom were raised during the "oldies" time period, it will be a huge mistake."

It's not RADIO that ignores them, radio goes where the money is. Advertisers and their ad agencies DO
NOT BUY 55+!

Traditional Oldies formats are the LAWRENCE WELK SHOW of the new millenium. Sorry.
The 50s ain't comin' back, and the 60s are almost over, too. I know, I'm programming an
Oldies station ('64-'78 era) in a Top 50 market. It's become very difficult to get enough
under 55 listeners to get good ratings and revenue.

 

[davideduardo]

Sumbuddy Sed: "The issue is that any music format that gets mostly 55+ audience can't work in the top US markets. "

Everything I've read says otherwise. News reports going back many years have always admitted the Boomers have been driving all consumer based economics in this country since their birth. Since the earliest of them is now reaching their early 60's I have the feeling that if radio ignores this enormous population, most of whom were raised during the "oldies" time period, it will be a huge mistake.

The simple fact is that in the larger markets, most of the business for radio comes from ad agencies, and ad agencies, by order of their accounts, do not target 55+ for most accounts (with the exceptions of products made only for 55+, like retirement servcices and products, health products specific to 55+, etc.).

The reason is that the return on investment is poor. Older people have more preferred brands and services. Thus it takes more advertising to "pry them lose" than with younger demos. Often, the cost of a sale is greater than the profit on it in 55+, so you will find that in markets like LA and NY, there is essentially no demand by such advertisers for 55+.

Since there is no ad revenue for 55+ stations, there are not many 55+ stations. The exceptions are in small markets or suburban areas where ratings are not important and buying is by the corner store, not an agency.

A good example is EZ-standards WDUV in Tampa, #1 12+ in the market but #14 in revenue because it has essentially no audience under age 55.

And there is no way for radio to serve an audience if few if any advertisers want to reach that audience. Same goes for teens.

 

[firepoint525]

Second lession for statisticians and pollsters: there is no poll or other scientific survey which will uncover this anomaly.

Sure there is. If you have followed the primaries on CNN or Fox cable nets, you will have seen that they use a dial in the hands of multiple registered voters to get a second by second read (called moment to moment in the trade) of how each voter feels about a speech.

The same technique is used on station music... listeners hear snippets of each song played, in the order they were played. Without exception, the big, highly familiar gold, the huge reccurrents and the superhits score highest. The lowest scores, with no exceptions, are for songs less than a few weeks old... new songs. They are unfamiliar, and there is no developed passion.

We also can see this in the granular data day after day in the PPM, and see it for our competitors, too. New/unfamiliar songs reduce the overall score, the intent to listen more, and will mean the difference if there is a similar competitor in the market with higher scoring songs and less new ones or unfamiliar ones.

Every research company has their particular method for determining the passion for each song... and most stations playing currents also do callout on frequent cycles as they know how dangerous unfamiliar music is.

I actually had the opposite problem listening to my rinky-dink CHR in northwest Tennessee back in the late '80s. They stubbornly refused to introduce new music! Good grief, did they think we live in a vacuum? Or that the knob on our radio dial was broken? By the time my local backward CHR FM station finally started playing a given new song, I (and probably everyone else within 50-100 miles of me!) had already been grooving to it for WEEKS after hearing it on the stations in Memphis, Jackson, Paducah, and even Dyersburg! There is such a thing as being too far behind the curve, and this station was! If this station had been out in the middle of nowhere in Kansas where the next-nearest CHR was over 100 miles away, they might have had a chance. Instead, this particular station was still playing tired old recurrents that their audience had grown tired of, and they (the audience, of course) were ready to move on to newer, fresher music.

I mention CHR on an oldies thread because it is CHR's job to introduce new music. Oldies are not "new." That's why they are called "oldies." Someone here in Nashville once said, they ain't making no "new" oldies! ;D

 

[firepoint525]

firepoint525 People know and love good music, whether it's from their generation or not!

Your right!! The younger crowd (kids to 20's) for the most part only know oldies (hits from the past) from what radio stations play today or what they have learned on their own, or what their parents taught them. These songs played on classic hits stations today are only a miniscule fraction of what was really popular in those days (50's, 60's, 70's or even the 80's). They were not alive during these years, for the most part.

The listeners that were alive during those years and heard the Top 40 stations then, know now what songs are "missing" from today's Classic hits stations. Most of these listeners are now (40 - 65+).

It's great & incredible that some of today's kids will listen to oldies, such as Louie Louie (1963) or the like.
It tell us that these songs are timeless and forever valuable to generations to come (hopefully).

Hey, oldies76, I'm glad you quoted me, but my screen name is "firepoint525"! ;D AACCKK!! (I corrected it for you here!) ;D

Okay, now, back on topic! I also remember, back on an earlier occasion, when my sister was in eighth grade, I think it was, somebody heard "Do Wah Diddy" on the radio one morning before school, and she and her friends went around singing that "Diddy" ditty for weeks afterward! You would have thought it was a current song in 1982 the way they were going around singing it! So, really, all you've got to do is familiarize them with it, or in some cases, RE-familiarize them with it!

 

[landtuna]

The simple fact is that in the larger markets, most of the business for radio comes from ad agencies, and ad agencies, by order of their accounts, do not target 55+ for most accounts (with the exceptions of products made only for 55+, like retirement servcices and products, health products specific to 55+, etc.).

I understand and accept your reasoning regarding ad agencies targeting specific age groups....but.....based upon what I typically hear on KOOL (about the only station I listen to these days) most ads are local, not national. Would local ads necessarily be bought by agencies the same way national ads are?

I should probably pay more attention to what they advertise on a typical day but it seems from my admitted sometimes fractional memory a preponderance of ad traffic are auto dealers. These are products that my age group (55+) still buys in volume.

My reasoning may be flawed as, over the years, I automatically tune out ALL commercials regardless of who they are targeting and usually must pay attention a number of times before I understand the entire commercial. Maybe there are too many like me.

 

[davideduardo]

I understand and accept your reasoning regarding ad agencies targeting specific age groups....but.....based upon what I typically hear on KOOL (about the only station I listen to these days) most ads are local, not national. Would local ads necessarily be bought by agencies the same way national ads are?

Yes, a huge percentage of radio business is local agency.

I should probably pay more attention to what they advertise on a typical day but it seems from my admitted sometimes fractional memory a preponderance of ad traffic are auto dealers. These are products that my age group (55+) still buys in volume.

Women also buy beer, but beer brands market to 21-49 men. Not to women, not to 55+. Same with cars... they don't waste money marketing to people with strong brand preferences.

My reasoning may be flawed as, over the years, I automatically tune out ALL commercials regardless of who they are targeting and usually must pay attention a number of times before I understand the entire commercial. Maybe there are too many like me.

You just proved the point. Geezers and seniors don't respond quickly to ads... it takes many many ads to make an impression.

 

[oldies76]

DavidEduardo Since there is no ad revenue for 55+ stations, there are not many 55+ stations. The exceptions are in small markets or suburban areas where ratings are not important and buying is by the corner store, not an agency.

WLNG is New York is a perfect example of a station targeting the older audience. Lots of 50's - 60's and obscurities.

Maybe, if more of these types of stations targeting 55+ began to sprout across the nation..they'd be happy!

It does not have to be a major market station, like KRTH in L.A., but it can be a bunch of smaller stations to "cover" what the majors won't play on air.

The exception to that seems to be CBS 101.1 in NY, with their big selection of songs & hits from the late 50's thru the early 80's and weekend specials on top of that!

 

[oldies76]

firepoint525 Hey, oldies76, I'm glad you quoted me, but my screen name is "firepoint525"!

Okay, now, back on topic! I also remember, back on an earlier occasion, when my sister was in eighth grade, I think it was, somebody heard "Do Wah Diddy" on the radio one morning before school, and she and her friends went around singing that "Diddy" ditty for weeks afterward! You would have thought it was a current song in 1982 the way they were going around singing it! So, really, all you've got to do is familiarize them with it, or in some cases, RE-familiarize them with it!

firepoint525,

Screen name correct?

Do Wah Diddy ('64) is one of those staple songs from the Beatles / British invasion that is still around today on most oldies & hits stations. In '82..you had music changing big time from the mellow 1980 & 81, and for grade school kids to sing a hit from the 60's over the '82 songs, proves that certain older songs will last!!

And now, most classic hits stations (in 2008) are playing early 80's ('82's) and still airing "Do Wah Diddy Diddy"

WOW where has time gone?

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Do Wah Diddy ('64) is one of those staple songs from the Beatles / British invasion that is still around today on most oldies & hits stations. In '82..you had music changing big time from the mellow 1980 & 81, and for grade school kids to sing a hit from the 60's over the '82 songs, proves that certain older songs will last!!

And now, most classic hits stations (in 2008) are playing early 80's ('82's) and still airing "Do Wah Diddy Diddy"

WOW where has time gone?

Remember that Bill Murray/Harold Ramis 1981 movie "Stripes"? That song was prominently featured.

 

[davideduardo]

WLNG is New York is a perfect example of a station targeting the older audience. Lots of 50's - 60's and obscurities.

WLNG is a community station that uses music to fill. It's in a small market (the 70 dbu signal covers just barely 50,000 persons) with little revenue (14 stations and less than $7 million in total revenue) and little audience (67% of listening locally is to out of market stations). This is a poor example

Maybe, if more of these types of stations targeting 55+ began to sprout across the nation..they'd be happy!

WLNG does not target 55+ specifically... it targets, like most small market stations, whatever it can get that will produce sales results.

The exception to that seems to be CBS 101.1 in NY, with their big selection of songs & hits from the late 50's thru the early 80's and weekend specials on top of that!

Outside of specialty shows, the size of the WCBS-FM playlist / active library is not particularly notable among classic hits stations.

Again, most specialty shows run when the available radio audience is minimal... Saturday after 7 PM, Sunday early morning and Sunday after 7 PM. Or evenings after 9 PM or 10 PM.

 

[firepoint525]

firepoint525 Hey, oldies76, I'm glad you quoted me, but my screen name is "firepoint525"!

Okay, now, back on topic! I also remember, back on an earlier occasion, when my sister was in eighth grade, I think it was, somebody heard "Do Wah Diddy" on the radio one morning before school, and she and her friends went around singing that "Diddy" ditty for weeks afterward! You would have thought it was a current song in 1982 the way they were going around singing it! So, really, all you've got to do is familiarize them with it, or in some cases, RE-familiarize them with it!

firepoint525,

Screen name correct?

Do Wah Diddy ('64) is one of those staple songs from the Beatles / British invasion that is still around today on most oldies & hits stations. In '82..you had music changing big time from the mellow 1980 & 81, and for grade school kids to sing a hit from the 60's over the '82 songs, proves that certain older songs will last!!

And now, most classic hits stations (in 2008) are playing early 80's ('82's) and still airing "Do Wah Diddy Diddy"

WOW where has time gone?

As if that weren't enough, these kids had their own version of the song! They would add an extra "wah" on at the end! "Do Wah Diddy Diddy Dum Diddy Doo Wah!" I don't know why they did that; they just did! ;D

 

[amfmsw]

Debbie Downer sez: "Geezers and Seniors....

David, I'm 52, I doubt ANYONE would call me a "Senior". The Tampa station that ranks #1 but bill 14th...do you even remotely consider they could possibly have a SALES problem? No matter what you're format is, you won't make penny 1 without a know-how sales team.

At this age, us "Geezers" still switch brands...that's an old wives tale that you may have picked up watching AMC's "Mad Men". That is so old fashioned thinking! If it were true, there would still be demand for B&W Console TV's! Many times, people switch brands because of a bad experience.

I drove GM for years. I liked the product for the price. My wife decided she wanted a Jeep..an honest-to-gawd Cherokee 4wd. I love it! It's a vehicle I never would have even considerd. We switched.

My new Chevy Malibu turned out to be a poorly constructed, thrown together piece of junk. Engine failure at 51,000 miles, and the factory wouldn't back it. I gave it to the kid. I'll never buy GM again. I bought an Infinity. Why? TOP OF MIND. Shopped other luxury brands, but bought this because it was the most car for the money at the time, and I was FAMILIAR with it because they marketed to me. My first Japanese car, and I love it. I SWITCHED.

Just upgraded to HDTV in October. Replaced a Zenith System 3 with a Sansui. I just recarpeted the house. The wife shopped at a store that advertises on the station she listens to, and we bought a brand that marketed to US, Karastan. Next is new Energy Star Central Air unit. And a new roof. That will complete the refurb I've already done with Anderson Windows and doors. Oh, did I mention the 50's-60's-70's Oldies Station listeners have homes, money, and buy premium brands. We've adopted the digital age, CD's, DVD's, internet. We're resonably quick adopters of the new. Boomers buy bigger, better and more often. We EMPLOY the young women who listen to Lite Rock and Urban AC. We EMPLOY the young men 18-34 so sought after. Why? WE have the money!

I'm not loyal to any brand of beer, soda, snack, department store, jeans, supermarket, gasoline, dog food, etc. But I do have favorites, like Pennsylvania Dutch Birch Beer and Jersey Tomatoes. I am loyal to my employer, wife and family, and doctors. But, I'll leave Comcast as soon as FiOS becomes available. Boomers switch brands, all you have to do is tell us why it's better, will benefit me over a comeptitor, and gives me value. BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT WHEN YOU STOP TALKING TO US.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I'm 52, I doubt ANYONE would call me a "Senior". The Tampa station that ranks #1 but bill 14th...do you even remotely consider they could possibly have a SALES problem? No matter what you're format is, you won't make penny 1 without a know-how sales team.

No, they have a demo problem. Cox is the owner, and that company is one of the best in the industry. They keep the format because it is very low cost, so it is profitable. But it they are limited to local direct dollars aimed at retiree business... nursing homes, senior specials and mortuaries. No agency business in a town where a huge portion of market billing is agency in origin.

At this age, us "Geezers" still switch brands...that's an old wives tale that you may have picked up watching AMC's "Mad Men".

No, I picked it up first years ago talking to a P&G brand manager, and have seen small samples of proprieetary research on advertising ROI over the years.

That is so old fashioned thinking! If it were true, there would still be demand for B&W Console TV's! Many times, people switch brands because of a bad experience.

But it takes more advertising to change buying patterns of older consumers than younger ones. The cost of the advertising often is greater than the profit on the sale, so there are essentially no agency buys in radio for 55+.

Boomers switch brands, all you have to do is tell us why it's better, will benefit me over a comeptitor, and gives me value. BUT YOU CAN'T DO THAT WHEN YOU STOP TALKING TO US.

This is not radio's decision. Agency accounts tell the agencies what ages to target. Seldom if ever do they ask for 55+ for radio campaigns. Radio can not do formats for ages that are not bought.... teens and 55+.

 

[deltas69]

David, I'm 52, I doubt ANYONE would call me a "Senior". i don;t know this person..but i'd bet they know more than 300 to 400 oldies..and i bet they'd like to hear ALL of them..not just a handful that some consultant played ito a small group of people in an auditorium. i'm 57 and boomers our age are NOT like our parents that lived frugaly due to the depression they experienced..we probably SHOULD ..but we do upgrade tv's, pc,s cars, etc..i begged my dad for years to get cable in his house so he could watch the grand ole opry that he loved so much...i told him i'd pay for it since i had some affliations with the local office..wouldn't have cost me much..but no..he said the antenna worked fine for 50 years..saw no reason to change now..if advertisers are so ready to write off us old farts..how do you account so many tv commercials using music from the 60's and 70's...just heard 3 dog night SHAMBALA five minutes ago..i'll bet it played to more people on tv in 30 seconds than a station played it all last year..we lived that music..we heard it all and it's still relevant to us and i think suits in an office somewhere ought to wise up...granted you have to have sales people old enough to know how and where to sell it..as well as pd's and jocks that know how to format and play it..still a lot if us old rock jocks out here..put it on..all of it..and we'll listen..and we'll buy..but don't insult our intelligence..we've been 25..ya'll ain't been 57...

 

[oldies76]

David, look, I agree 100% that radio SHOULD cater to 55+. These people were born in 1953 or earlier and were in the heyday of REAL goodtime-oldies (not today's goodtime oldies, if you know what I mean).

What is the big deal if these fine people want to hear ALL their favorite songs from the past?
All the big hits from 1955 thru the early 80's at best?
Why can't radio do this? There WILL be a demand for this soon..the boomers will want it!

They KNOW all the songs that were hits in the past, not the same 400 songs over and over on stations today.

Today's oldies / classic hits stations target 35-54, correct? The younger end of this spectrum weren't even alive then to know what 80% of the available hits were, now! Current oldies stations feed this demo the same songs over and over again and make them believe these WERE the only big hits of those years.

I mean "What I Like About You" by the Romantics is played way too much and it did not even crack the Top 40 in 1980 (#49). But yet "Talking in Your Sleep", a much bigger hit (#3 in 1984) is never played!

The fact is "What I Like About You" was never a real hit, but radio ignores the good hits, like "Sleep"

The 55+ audience does not want repetition, they want all their favorites, all of the real hits from the past. These songs provide incredible memories for them and are revelant to events in their lives.

Give it a chance! Someday there will be a demand for stations playing these hit songs and it WILL be successful. WCBS is nearing those lines, especially in specialty slots.

And WHO CARES if it's during times when listenership is low...who cares? At least there is an audience to begin with, or CBS would never air them in the first place..There is some demand.

Give it a chance! Enough negativity on this issue, and as long they are alive (55+) it WILL be an issue.
You're only one! There are millions of them.

 

[davideduardo]

David, look, I agree 100% that radio SHOULD cater to 55+. These people were born in 1953 or earlier and were in the heyday of REAL goodtime-oldies (not today's goodtime oldies, if you know what I mean).

Wonderful. Now you run out and tell P&G and GM and General Mills and Budweiser that their marketing research is all wrong about the results and return on investment from advertising to 55+.

What is the big deal if these fine people want to hear ALL their favorite songs from the past?
All the big hits from 1955 thru the early 80's at best?
Why can't radio do this? There WILL be a demand for this soon..the boomers will want it!

Radio can't serve 55+ because there is no revenue to be gotten in larger markets from serving 55+.

Today's oldies / classic hits stations target 35-54, correct?

No, oldies stations are 45-64 or 45+. Classic Hits is 35-54.

I mean "What I Like About You" by the Romantics is played way too much and it did not even crack the Top 40 in 1980 (#49). But yet "Talking in Your Sleep", a much bigger hit (#3 in 1984) is never played!

I told you the charts from back then were highly influenced by less than ethical practices by the music industry. I would not trust a chart position from the 50's or 60's any more than a guy selling me the Brooklyn Bridge. In any case, the important thing is whether listeners want to hear the song today. I can name many #1 songs from that era that are almost universally hated today, and are totally unplayable.

The 55+ audience does not want repetition, they want all their favorites, all of the real hits from the past. These songs provide incredible memories for them and are revelant to events in their lives.

And the ones listeners say they want to hear are played. You are naming stiff after stiff after stiff.

Give it a chance! Enough negativity on this issue, and as long they are alive (55+) it WILL be an issue.
You're only one! There are millions of them.

If they are over 55, commercial radio can not serve them. Buy a satellite radio subscription and leave us alone.