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93-3TheSurge said:
My understanding is that there are some countries where exactly that is done - the same programing is broadcast across the entire country on multiple stations using the same frequency, creating, in effect, a "national" channel. But my strong guess is that all such set ups involve state run broadcast outlets.
In this country that sort of widespread coverage has always been accomplished by networks, both national and regional in nature. For example, there are few, if any, areas in the country where one cannot tune in to the Rush Limbaugh program. Of course, it is not all on the same frequency or even on the same broadcast band. But the only Limbaugh listeners that this is really a problem for are travelers such as truck drivers who have to contend with stations that fade away every hour or so and things like the next available station down the road being on a time delay. Do people in Fort Worth who listen to Limbaugh on 820 really care that New Yorkers who are also listening do so on 770?
If your idea has merit, would listeners in East Texas really care that they are tuning into a different frequency than the folks in Mineral Wells do? It seems to me that it would certainly be easier to put such a network together if one wasn't limited to having to persuade only owners of stations on a particular frequency. Why not do that instead?
That, of course, assumes your idea DOES have merit. Not suggesting that it doesn't have merit to you or probably to many other people who would be inclined to agree with you that such an idea is really cool. But there are all sorts of great ideas regarding radio formats that have a lot of merit and are really cool and never advance beyond the idea stage. In the end, the idea has to be more than just really cool but also be worth the while of the specific individuals who will ultimately have to put in their own hard-earned and scarce money and effort if it is to ever happen. Those are the people - not the people who are interacting with you here - you ultimately must convince that the idea is more than merely cool but is actually financially viable. And unless those people are specifically seeking you out, they are probably a pretty hard sell as my guess is that anybody who owns a radio station has no shortage of people making programing suggestions. And, even if they agree with you that it is a neat idea, the only thing they are really likely to be concerned about is whether it will make them money.
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93-3TheSurge
Guest
dfwrunner said:
No one is decreasing choice, Runner. East Dallas, Malakoff, and Sulphur Springs cannot pick up KFWR. It would give these areas yet another option, and for Malakoff and Sulphur Springs, it would give these towns "big city radio" with a static free signal. If you are confused, read my previous posts, starting on page one.
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93-3TheSurge
Guest
dismuke said:
Dismuke, let me just say--- you are the bomb, sir.
All of your posts are crisp, thoughtful, informative. A+ work, my friend. Zeroing in on your 3rd paragraph, no, listeners in East Texas probably wouldn't care that they are listening to the same frequency that listeners in Fort Worth are tuned into, unless they thought it was the same station, a station that spans 270 miles. "Wow, this is a powerful station," one might say. "How can one tower put out that much power?," another might say. When, in actuality, it is three different towers putting out the power, plus one translator. Most listeners would not bother checking fcc.gov or radio-locator.com to find out the whole truth behind KFWR 95-9 and would go on thinking it is indeed one powerful station. Power 95-9, perhaps? Let me bring up two instances, one in Louisiana, where KAJN in Lafayette, a 100,000 watt station, had a translator about 20 miles east of where its coverage went totally fringe. So if you are driving on I-10 and heading east, it sounds like the station loses power for about ten minutes, and then comes back with a "clear signal vengeance." Awesome. Another involves 101X in Austin, who back in 2001, had a translator about 4 hours south, so three hours after the station went fringe, it had a clear signal. Very awesome experience, and listeners appreciate this, enough to continue to listen through the static or be loyal to the station at a local level.
Focusing on your last paragraph, yes the end game depends on how much money a "really cool idea" can bring you, and it may take a really eccentric group of station owners to agree to something like this. That is what is really great about this website, is you can bounce "really cool ideas" off of people who know radio and hear their opinions and field any questions they may have.
Again, Dismuke, very good feedback. Keep it comin' brotha.
93-3TheSurge said:
I read all your posts. Of course it limits choice. I can pick up more than one of those signals you listed where I am now. And "big city" radio is mostly crap...small town radio can be just as cool without creating a superstation by simulcasting the same programming on multiple frequencies. ..anyway if this idea had merit, convince the FCC to allow a 500kw transmitter. They allow some grandfathered stations to broadcast at those extreme power levels. There's one at 93.7 in Michigan at 345000 watts. My opinion is that should whack that signal down a bit and open up some spectrum for some competitors.
D
dfaulkner
Guest
, convince the FCC to allow a 500kw transmitter. They allow some grandfathered stations to broadcast at those extreme power levels. There's one at 93.7 in Michigan at 345000 watts.
[/quote] The quote is from dfwrunner (not sure why it doesn't show that...)
That sounded interesting...Looked it up on Radio-Locator..it's WBCT Grand Rapids, a Country station, they
show it at 320,000 watts, Class B, looking at the coverage map, it doesn't look like they get all that much
for the extra wattage. Maybe I'm missing something...
[/quote] The quote is from dfwrunner (not sure why it doesn't show that...)
That sounded interesting...Looked it up on Radio-Locator..it's WBCT Grand Rapids, a Country station, they
show it at 320,000 watts, Class B, looking at the coverage map, it doesn't look like they get all that much
for the extra wattage. Maybe I'm missing something...
The quote is from dfwrunner (not sure why it doesn't show that...)dfaulkner said:
That sounded interesting...Looked it up on Radio-Locator..it's WBCT Grand Rapids, a Country station, they
show it at 320,000 watts, Class B, looking at the coverage map, it doesn't look like they get all that much
for the extra wattage. Maybe I'm missing something...
[/quote]
Yes, they used to be higher, the slight decrease is fairly recent. I'm not sure why the changed by such a "small" amount of power...No, lots of extra power don't equal lots of extra coverage area.
LibertyNT said:im sure if a 500kW station on FM was broadcasting from one of WWV's Towers they would go out a pretty good distance
A few weeks ago, I ran a Longley-Rice theoretical for a Cedar Hill FM facility at 1790' HAAT (Cowboy Tower) with a power of 500 kW at 97.9 MHz. The results showed that the 6.989 dBu increase wasn't all that impressive. It just broadened the circle a bit for the existing KBFB facility. The only significant change I detected was greater signal density toward the fringes in places like Celina and Decatur.
M
MikeShannon914
Guest
Wow, we could sure start rumors off that! I bet Belo's buying back 97.9 from Radio One to put The Zoo back on the air. They still feel guilty over the Ken Baker incident where he was chastised for interrupting a song to give a tornado warning. (Actually, that was Anchor Media that slighted Ken, but that fact doesn't help this rumor, so ignore, please.) Wait, no, they're going to bring back WFAA-NewsTalk 57 but put it on 97.9 to go head-to-head with WBAPlatinum-96.7! Get ready, Dick Syatt, Jim Simon, Charley Wright, Ed Busch, "Superfan" and Dick Wheeler...your phones are about to ring!!Bob E. Nelson said:
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93-3TheSurge
Guest
Runner, we have talked about this before---you can pick up more than one of the 95.9 signals because you have an awesome antenna. I think that is great---but you are one in a handful of people in this area with that capability. Most listeners cannot do this, and quite frankly, don't care to. They just want to get in their car and tune into their favorite station. In other words, we are broadcasting to the average Joe who knows little about radio, not someone with a special antenna.
You say "big city" radio is mostly crap, well, I'm sure you could also agree that radio in general is mostly crap. It's crap because there are not enough choices. Listeners in Sulphur Springs or Malakoff have tons of small market country stations to choose from; this idea would bring in a new format for both markets, with a "big city" feel, which would give listeners in these cities more options, which is what you wanted, according to one of your earlier posts.
You also say, "Convince the FCC to allow a 500kw transmitter." Yeah, right!! I have a better chance of winning the powerball and buying these four stations with my winnings than pulling that off.
Runner, I am glad you brought up stations that are running higher than the allotted 100,000 watts (because it's one of my favorite topics). WBCT in Grand Rapids, MI (B93-7) runs on 320,000 watts, but its coverage area is weaker than KRLD-FM or KBFB-FM, which run below 100kw. Another station in Columbus, OH, WNCI, runs on 175kw, but again, it is weaker than KRLD or even KDGE, which doesn't even make it to Waco. WSLQ in Roanoke, VA runs on 150,000 watts, and its coverage area may be a little better than KRLD or KLNO.
KPFK in Los Angeles runs at 112kw, and its coverage area goes all the way to Barstow, so I would say it is more powerful than any station in Dallas. On the islands, WIPR in San Juan, PR has a really powerful signal, with 105,000 watts and an 825-meter HAAT (height above average terrain). In Hawaii, a Wailuku radio station boasts a 1,687-meter HAAT, but is broadcasting at only 56,000 watts. I encourage everyone to check out these coverage maps on radio-locator, especially the ones on the islands, as they are a lot of fun to look at.
What is the most powerful FM station in the United States, you ask? Well, in my opinion, it is KVYB in Santa Barbara, 103-3 The Vibe. I haven't had the priviledge of driving through the wine country (a la Sideways) trying to pull in the station from San Luis Obispo and beyond, but here is what former chief engineer Tom King had to say about the station's signal:
"KRUZ-FM (the station's call letters are now KVYB) is 105kw and on a 4000' mountain above Santa Barbara and has regular listeners 200 miles south of the Mexican border. That is almost 400 miles away. The tropospheric ducting across the 'Salt Water Coax' really helps the Southern California stations propagate a long ways. About 200 miles north of the station there is a Billboard announcing sponsored Traffic reports on the station and It is hearable at that sign."
You say "big city" radio is mostly crap, well, I'm sure you could also agree that radio in general is mostly crap. It's crap because there are not enough choices. Listeners in Sulphur Springs or Malakoff have tons of small market country stations to choose from; this idea would bring in a new format for both markets, with a "big city" feel, which would give listeners in these cities more options, which is what you wanted, according to one of your earlier posts.
You also say, "Convince the FCC to allow a 500kw transmitter." Yeah, right!! I have a better chance of winning the powerball and buying these four stations with my winnings than pulling that off.
Runner, I am glad you brought up stations that are running higher than the allotted 100,000 watts (because it's one of my favorite topics). WBCT in Grand Rapids, MI (B93-7) runs on 320,000 watts, but its coverage area is weaker than KRLD-FM or KBFB-FM, which run below 100kw. Another station in Columbus, OH, WNCI, runs on 175kw, but again, it is weaker than KRLD or even KDGE, which doesn't even make it to Waco. WSLQ in Roanoke, VA runs on 150,000 watts, and its coverage area may be a little better than KRLD or KLNO.
KPFK in Los Angeles runs at 112kw, and its coverage area goes all the way to Barstow, so I would say it is more powerful than any station in Dallas. On the islands, WIPR in San Juan, PR has a really powerful signal, with 105,000 watts and an 825-meter HAAT (height above average terrain). In Hawaii, a Wailuku radio station boasts a 1,687-meter HAAT, but is broadcasting at only 56,000 watts. I encourage everyone to check out these coverage maps on radio-locator, especially the ones on the islands, as they are a lot of fun to look at.
What is the most powerful FM station in the United States, you ask? Well, in my opinion, it is KVYB in Santa Barbara, 103-3 The Vibe. I haven't had the priviledge of driving through the wine country (a la Sideways) trying to pull in the station from San Luis Obispo and beyond, but here is what former chief engineer Tom King had to say about the station's signal:
"KRUZ-FM (the station's call letters are now KVYB) is 105kw and on a 4000' mountain above Santa Barbara and has regular listeners 200 miles south of the Mexican border. That is almost 400 miles away. The tropospheric ducting across the 'Salt Water Coax' really helps the Southern California stations propagate a long ways. About 200 miles north of the station there is a Billboard announcing sponsored Traffic reports on the station and It is hearable at that sign."
And WWV is shortwave and benefits from the atmosphere and skywave. FM, except in the case of ducting is line of site.
Great story about WBCT in the early days, the transmitter then was a modified RCA TV transmitter. They used a 12 bay tower and thanks to gain multiplication within the bays it worked out to be 320KW effective radiated power.
WOOD-FM in nearby Grand Rapids MI ran 500KW ERP. They've since reduced that due to transmitter/antenna changes over the years. Can you imagine that kind or radiation from say a 300' stick?
Great story about WBCT in the early days, the transmitter then was a modified RCA TV transmitter. They used a 12 bay tower and thanks to gain multiplication within the bays it worked out to be 320KW effective radiated power.
WOOD-FM in nearby Grand Rapids MI ran 500KW ERP. They've since reduced that due to transmitter/antenna changes over the years. Can you imagine that kind or radiation from say a 300' stick?
LibertyNT said:dfwrunner said:LibertyNT said:im sure if a 500kW station on FM was broadcasting from one of WWV's Towers they would go out a pretty good distance
? WWV? WWVs towers are only about 122 meters.
yes, but they are on top of a mountain.
No, they're not. WWV is on the plains east of the Rockies.
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93-3TheSurge
Guest
Scott Fybush said:
That's true, WWV is in Fort Collins, Colorado, which is just east of the Rockies. It's shortwave, not FM.
Imagine if WHOM-FM in Mt Washington, New Hampshire broadcasted at 500kw. It boasts a 1,141 meter (3,743-ft) HAAT, the highest in the US. A listener could probably pull it in from Montreal.
I checked KKUA in Wailuku, HI, and its HAAT is 779 meters (2,556-ft), not the 1,687 I posted earlier. In 1999 it was 1,687 meters, but that is not true today.
You already can hear WHOM in Montreal, given a decently selective receiver (to get around first-adjacents CBF 95.1 and WYUL 94.7) and a decently directional antenna (to get past co-channel signals elsewhere in Quebec.)
Cranking up the power at the transmitter end only gets you so far on FM. It's a line-of-sight medium, and the limiting factors are the curvature of the earth (and, increasingly, co- and adjacent-channel interference!) You get about 200 miles under the very best of circumstances, no matter how much power you're transmitting with. The only thing that gets you beyond that radius is DX propagation, either tropospheric ducting or E-skip. Neither is completely predictable or dependable, though tropo enhancement is common enough to be nearly constant along a few specific coastal paths. (The one that comes to mind is along the Pacific coast in southern California, where signals from Santa Barbara are extremely common in San Diego.)
WWV, by contrast, can cover the entire country (and then some) with 10 kW or so because its entire propagation is skywave, at frequencies that support long-distance skywave propagation. But that, in turn, is nearly useless as far as a local groundwave signal goes. You can be sitting right in downtown Fort Collins and you'll hear almost no signal from WWV.
Cranking up the power at the transmitter end only gets you so far on FM. It's a line-of-sight medium, and the limiting factors are the curvature of the earth (and, increasingly, co- and adjacent-channel interference!) You get about 200 miles under the very best of circumstances, no matter how much power you're transmitting with. The only thing that gets you beyond that radius is DX propagation, either tropospheric ducting or E-skip. Neither is completely predictable or dependable, though tropo enhancement is common enough to be nearly constant along a few specific coastal paths. (The one that comes to mind is along the Pacific coast in southern California, where signals from Santa Barbara are extremely common in San Diego.)
WWV, by contrast, can cover the entire country (and then some) with 10 kW or so because its entire propagation is skywave, at frequencies that support long-distance skywave propagation. But that, in turn, is nearly useless as far as a local groundwave signal goes. You can be sitting right in downtown Fort Collins and you'll hear almost no signal from WWV.
Scott Fybush said:LibertyNT said:dfwrunner said:LibertyNT said:im sure if a 500kW station on FM was broadcasting from one of WWV's Towers they would go out a pretty good distance
? WWV? WWVs towers are only about 122 meters.
yes, but they are on top of a mountain.
No, they're not. WWV is on the plains east of the Rockies.
So does that mean at the nearest King Soopers store to the WWV sticks
in Fort Collins, Hellman's Mayo is sold rather than Best Foods?
Scott Fybush said:
At least 303-499-7111 is a local call there! I think. (It seemed to be in
both Boulder and Denver.)
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93-3TheSurge
Guest
Scott Fybush said:
I really doubt you can pick up WHOM in Montreal, as it's about 150 miles (as the crow flies) from the tower. If you can't pick up WHOM in Rouses Point, NY (on the border) I just don't see it getting into Montreal. If you bought the best antenna money can buy from ccradio.com, there is a possibility it could come in "barely perceptible" at best, but I doubt it. Again, if it were to amp up to 500kw, or even the legal 100kw, it might have a shot (WHOM currently operates at 48kw). Also, CBF is on 100.7, and there isn't a 95.1 in Montreal. WYUL is on 94-7 and would cause interference in Montreal.
Scott Fybush said:
The station you are thinking of is KVYB 103-3 out of Santa Barbara. It runs at 105kw and has an HAAT of 2,969 feet. The "salt water coax" provides for excellent tropoducting. I wrote more about it in a recent post on this thread, and I also touched on other stations that run over the 100,000-watts allotted by the FCC.
93-3TheSurge said:
See where it says "for entertainment purposes only" on the bottom of that radio-locator page you're getting your information from? Yeah...it means it, especially where Canadian data is concerned.
Been there, listened to that, and I'm here to tell you that before CBF came on at 95.1 - and yes, it's been there for more than a decade now - you could absolutely hear WHOM in patches around Montreal. Terrain is just as important as power (usually more so), especially in the mountainous northeast. It's actually stronger than WYUL on the western shore of Lake Champlain, thanks to terrain.
Oh, and about that "legal" 100 kW? If WHOM were operating as a standard class C facility, it would be running 27.6 kW, derated for height above the 100 kW/600 meter class maximum. It's already grandfathered in 2.4 dB stronger than it would be if it were built today. Pushing it up to 100 kW ERP would only give it another 2 dB bump in Montreal, which is pretty close to insignificant.
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