A Change Coming to KGO

[michael hagerty]

whos gonna operate these stations? whos gonna program them? what will they program?
That will open a can of worms, with one side happy, and one side complaining all the time

The government is already too involved in radio.

BAD idea

Oh, Paul. That's simple. You run an endless loop of REM's "The End Of The World As We Know It." The music only stops for EAS alerts and the top of the hour legal ID:

"This is 50-thousand watt clear channel WEAS, Rugby, North Dakota. When the music stops, that means the crap has hit the fan."

 

[rustyhodge]

I do have to wonder if we should keep a few of the clear channel AM stations around for running the Emergency Broadcast System if everything else falls apart during a national emergency that takes other networks down.

Remember how 2 of KGO's 3 towers collapsed in '89 from Loma Prieta?

 

[Rusty Muck]

whos gonna operate these stations? whos gonna program them? what will they program?
That will open a can of worms, with one side happy, and one side complaining all the time

The government is already too involved in radio.

BAD idea

Plus it’s bold of anyone to assume that anyone would want to listen to those AM stations in the event of non-emergency situations, which would be 99.99999999999999999999953745847471% of the time.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Remember how 2 of KGO's 3 towers collapsed in '89 from Loma Prieta?

Or two of WBT’s towers during Hurricane Hugo?

WWVA lost their three self-supported tower array in 2010 due to a freak derecho and wound up having to broadcast over AM 1400, a graveyard class C, until the replacement array was built.

 

[rustyhodge]

On 9/11 most of the cell phone antennas in the area went down with the twin towers.

Wasn't that actually because the Verizon CO at 140 West St was damaged from the partial collapse of WTC7? It took out landlines as well as cellular. Not so much the sites themselves, but where the backhaul ended up.

 

[michael hagerty]

Remember how 2 of KGO's 3 towers collapsed in '89 from Loma Prieta?

For those who don't: https://coveringthecity.com/15-seconds-in-october-san-francisco-earthquake-1989-kgo-radio/

 

[Old Grey Coyote]

Remember how 2 of KGO's 3 towers collapsed in '89 from Loma Prieta?

Which would leave them with KFBK and KNX. The reason for keeping more than one.

 

[michael hagerty]

Which would leave them with KFBK and KNX. The reason for keeping more than one.

'BK does throw a serviceable if somewhat noisy signal into SF. KNX---you'd have to wait until after dark.

Interestingly, the real clear channel signal for San Francisco isn't KGO, it's KNBR. 680 is a 1-A, 810 a 1-B (as is 740, KCBS).

 

[michael hagerty]

...also worth remembering---most TV and radio stations were temporarily knocked off the air, but only KGO suffered tower damage.

KFI's tower has collapsed twice in the last 20 years. Once after being hit by a plane and a still-under-construction replacement four years later.

So there's no guarantee a 50kw AM will be there, at full strength, when you need it.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

Which would leave them with KFBK and KNX. The reason for keeping more than one.

https://pastdaily.com/2014/10/17/earthquake-october-17-1989/

True and at least in parts of Solano County KFBK's signal is reachable.

 

[davideduardo]

The FCC and DHS have been transitioning some aspects of EBS to cell phones

... which don't work in extreme emergencies. Cellular sites generally have battery backups for short failures, and few have generators. They must remain connected physically. Earthquakes, forest fires, floods and hurricanes can all destroy cellular service, whether in a small area or several whole counties. Or even a whole state or territory.

 

[TheBigA]

... which don't work in extreme emergencies. Cellular sites generally have battery backups for short failures, and few have generators. They must remain connected physically. Earthquakes, forest fires, floods and hurricanes can all destroy cellular service, whether in a small area or several whole counties. Or even a whole state or territory.

I'm sure all of this has been presented to them. My sense is they're more likely to appropriate money for cell towers than for AM radio. Because we all know the telecom industry needs more money.

 

[davideduardo]

Which would leave them with KFBK and KNX. The reason for keeping more than one.

And most out-of-market stations don't cover anything more than their local area in the daytime.

Example: In the daytime, WLW is OK for Louisville, Lexington, Dayton and Columbus but not for Cleveland or Detroit or Wheeling or Nashville.

Even leaving a few 500 kw AM stations would not cover much of the country in the daytime. We would need several dozen 500 to 1000 kw AMs on low dial positions to guarantee most of the country would have some kind of service.

And that assumes that the station in an affected area survives and has fuel and available trained staff.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm sure all of this has been presented to them. My sense is they're more likely to appropriate money for cell towers than for AM radio. Because we all know the telecom industry needs more money.

The issue is that cellular does not "behave" well for more than short distances*. So they'd have to install generators with fossil fuel tanks or solar panels with huge batteries to last for more than a few hours.

Since many... and most in urban areas... cell sites are in places like apartment buildings and churches and office building, installing generators using fossil fuel would not be feasible and doing a full solar system likely would not find enough space after the building owner satisfies their own solar needs.

* One of the issues is that cell sites have a finite call capacity so in an emergency they become rapidly overloaded.

 

[CTListener]

That's really an FCC/government thing. They control the frequencies, and they oversee EBS. When congress passed the Homeland Security Act after 9/11, that became part of DHS. Radio stations really have no say in the matter. If radio companies shut down their AM stations, then it's up to the government to keep EBS going somehow. The federal government isn't allowed to own domestic radio stations, so they'd have to figure something out. Maybe hand it off to the states.

And depending on which party is in power at the time this decision is made, a certain number of the states will refuse to take part in the plan.

 

[kfbkfb]

The 50kW AM station subsidy issue isn't that complicated


DHS would subsidize some existing commercial 50kW AM stations (maybe to keep them at break even cost overnight).

Obviously, if a local 50kW AM is knocked off the air, a "nearby" 50kW AM could probably be received.

(and - with the power off in a large area, much of the interference in the AM band would be eliminated, likely allowing easier reception of distant 50kW AMs)


Kirk Bayne

 

[TheBigA]

The 50kW AM station subsidy issue isn't that complicated

You've obviously never worked with the government. This would need to be an appropriated expense.

Government subsidies need congressional approval. You're talking about subsidizing one station. How is that one station chosen?

Lots of questions in terms of which state gets the subsidy, and why. So there would be congressional hearings.

Get the picture? More complicated than you thought?

 

[gr8oldies]

Or two of WBT’s towers during Hurricane Hugo?

WWVA lost their three self-supported tower array in 2010 due to a freak derecho and wound up having to broadcast over AM 1400, a graveyard class C, until the replacement array was built.

As I recall, WWVA was able to quickly get a long-wire configured for temporary operations and was only on 1400 a day or 2. I remember hearing the temporary antenna in Tennessee.

 

[gr8oldies]

Plus it’s bold of anyone to assume that anyone would want to listen to those AM stations in the event of non-emergency situations, which would be 99.99999999999999999999953745847471% of the time.

Or would even think to tune one...or how to tune them in.... during an emergency.

 

[davideduardo]

The 50kW AM station subsidy issue isn't that complicated

The issue is that it would take hundreds of 50 kw stations to just to cover the top 300 US markets in the daytime. Emergencies don't wait for the sun to go down.

DHS would subsidize some existing commercial 50kW AM stations (maybe to keep them at break even cost overnight).

That would still not pay for 24/7 news departments.

Obviously, if a local 50kW AM is knocked off the air, a "nearby" 50kW AM could probably be received.

At night, maybe. But in many places 50 kw does not even cover the local market. WTOP in DC moved to FM because their 50 kw AM does not cover all of its home market

(and - with the power off in a large area, much of the interference in the AM band would be eliminated, likely allowing easier reception of distant 50kW AMs)

Not in the daytime.