A Change Coming to KGO

[gr8oldies]

I guess old terms die hard. It's been called the Emergency Alert System since 1997.

It's not CONELRAD anymore?

 

[kfbkfb]

It would be several AM stations all over the USA selected for their signal reach, explain and justify the expense to Congress as an inexpensive way to provide emergency info with an existing system.

aside:
My limited experience working with the Government was a good one - in early 2013 I emailed my MO representative about expanding Medicaid in MO, he ended up going on a "listening tour" around MO to find about about how Medicaid was working in MO and in 2015, he cosponsored a Bill to expand Medicaid in MO, all due to my 1 email (Bill didn't pass though).


Kirk Bayne

 

[davideduardo]

As I recall, WWVA was able to quickly get a long-wire configured for temporary operations and was only on 1400 a day or 2. I remember hearing the temporary antenna in Tennessee.

At night, you might have heard it because a longwire usually creates great skywave. It probably did not even cover Stubenville with a local signal, though.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

Here's a perspective that may help.

Think of AM as like a shopping mall. Now let's go back to 1978 in San Francisco and look at AM Mall. It's an old-school, air conditioned, indoor mall.

View attachment 3678

1. KFRC-AM (Top 40): 8.4
2. KGO-AM (Talk): 7.6
3. KSFO-AM (A/C): 6.5
4. KCBS-AM (News): 5.8
5. KFOG-FM (Beautiful): 4.4
6. KIOI-FM (A/C): 3.9
7. KABL-AM (Beautiful): 3.5
8. KSFX-FM (Disco): 3.4
9. KNBR-AM (A/C): 3.3
10. KDIA-AM (R&B): 3.2

Seven of the ten hottest stores are in AM Mall. They draw people in and while they're there, those people might dial around the other stores.

Let's flash forward to 1985---seven years later and 37 years ago. How's AM Mall doing?

View attachment 3679

1. KGO-AM (Talk): 8.8
2. KCBS-AM (News): 5.3
3. KYUU-FM (some called it A/C, some called it CHR): 4.1
4. KIOI-FM (same as KYUU---if these were A/C, they were very hot A/Cs): 3.5
5. KSOL-FM (R&B): 3.4
6. KABL-FM (Beautiful): 3.3
7. KSAN-FM (Country): 3.2
8. KFRC-AM (CHR): 3.1
9. KNBR-AM (A/C): 2.8
10. KFOG-FM (AOR): 2.7
10. KRQR-FM (AOR): 2.7

Uh-oh. Only four of the hottest stores are in AM Mall now. KGO and KCBS seem to be hanging in, but big stores like KFRC and KSFO aren't bringing people to AM Mall anymore, and that's depressed KNBR's numbers and pushed KABL out of the top 10 (11 because it's a tie).

Maybe it'll get better. Maybe just those big anchor stores (KGO, KCBS) will be enough to keep the mall going. Y'know, like Macy's and Nordstrom.

Well, we know how that wound up.

View attachment 3680

Did Macy's suddenly suck? Nordstrom? Bloomingdale's? No. They starved because people stopped shopping where their stores were---AM Mall. So, no. Compelling content won't bring people back to AM anymore than solid stores saved malls.

A lot of places have re-purposed their malls, turning them into "power centers". What was once a Nordstrom is now a Walmart. And what was once KGO Newstalk 810 is now a sports betting station.

That is a good one given in other places I would have compared it to gentrification in cities in other places.

 

[davideduardo]

It would be several AM stations all over the USA selected for their signal reach, explain and justify the expense to Congress as an inexpensive way to provide emergency info with an existing system.

It would take well over 200 50 kw stations all across the US to cover about 80% of the population in the daytime. Who is going to pay to build and maintain those stations and to keep a staff ready to do emergency broadcasts?

And 30% of US homes have no radio at all today, anyway.

 

[kfbkfb]

DHS (run from D. C.) could provide the emergency info via the existing radio emergency system (no local news divisions would be needed).

I guess DHS could provide public service ads on various websites that if the cell network is down and/or the power is off, use an AM radio for emergency info (perhaps Walmart could partner w/DHS to sell the Sony AM/FM pocket radio at wholesale).

Of course, there are limitations to AM reception, but it is an existing system that could be very helpful in providing emergency info when no other system can (just need to [re]educate people about using a battery powered AM radio in an emergency situation).


Kirk Bayne

 

[TheBigA]

DHS (run from D. C.) could provide the emergency info via the existing radio emergency system (no local news divisions would be needed).

Then they would have to staff it. That means a new budget for staff.

FYI the DHS has never used the EAS system to declare an emergency. Not for 9/11, not for a tornado, not for a hurricane, or an earthquake. They've never done it. What makes you think they're going to start now?

 

[cc333]

I think that I hold onto a lot of nostalgia for the AM band, and don’t see it as the dinosaur that it actually is sometimes. I mentioned before that I’m in my late 20’s, but heck, even when I was a kid the AM band was better than it is today.

I'm roughly 3-5 years ahead of you, and I feel the same! AM was better as recently as 5 years ago, I'd say.

I do have to wonder if we should keep a few of the clear channel AM stations around for running the Emergency Broadcast System if everything else falls apart during a national emergency that takes other networks down.

Maybe, but, as has been mentioned elsewhere, how would such a plan be practically executed and economically viable?

On 9/11 most of the cell phone antennas in the area went down with the twin towers. Cingular and Verizon had to bring in Cellular on Wheels trailers so the emergency workers could have cell phone service for communications. Yeah. That was in the middle of New York City. Microwave transmitters that link cell phone service can go down when the power goes down. There are so many more things that can fail in a cell phone network.

... which don't work in extreme emergencies. Cellular sites generally have battery backups for short failures, and few have generators. They must remain connected physically. Earthquakes, forest fires, floods and hurricanes can all destroy cellular service, whether in a small area or several whole counties. Or even a whole state or territory.

During the fires in Northern California in 2015, 2017 and 2018, in places, the entire cellular, internet and even traditional landline telephone infrastructure was some combination of severely damaged, overloaded or destroyed, which rendered it all mostly useless as far as getting information goes. And add this to the fact that in many of the worst hit places, the electric grid was severely damaged as well and, on more than one occasion, shut down altogether as a result, in some cases intentionally, even in places far from the incidents which suffered no damage.

This reminds me of one time where PG&E (the NorCal power utility) enacted what they call a Public Safety Power Shutoff (PSPS) for about 3 or so days in October of 2020, and the local cell towers, which ran off batteries, either reduced power significantly or went dead altogether for much of that time. Made it quite hard to get any information... except of course for the radio, which enabled us to know what was going on. A similar thing happened in October of 2019, except that one lasted for just over a week, and the local cell tower near our evacuation area had a generator (there was a fire that happened just as the PSPS was getting underway, and we had to evacuate for a week as a result. Thankfully, the fire stayed clear of our house). We got lucky that time, but radio was still there.

And that brings me to my point: Through these various disasters over the past few years, I've found that radio was always mostly unaffected, and thus would seem to be the most reliable means of getting information. It's possible that a tower or two from some small fringe stations might have been damaged in one of the fires, but I never heard of any that were.

If you really want a laugh, ask somebody under 40 to dial a number using an old dial phone.

I just bought myself a Western Electric 500DM rotary dial phone. I don't have a landline at the moment, but I plan to eventually get one (it's a strange notion in 2022, but landlines still exist, and one can still sign up).

c

 

[semoochie]

'BK does throw a serviceable if somewhat noisy signal into SF. KNX---you'd have to wait until after dark.

Interestingly, the real clear channel signal for San Francisco isn't KGO, it's KNBR. 680 is a 1-A, 810 a 1-B (as is 740, KCBS).

680 is not one of the 25 original US Clear channels and was therefore a Class 1-B, sharing the channel with Boston and Raleigh, despite being non-directional. It's been awhile but I'm thinking that KCBS was actually a Class 2 because 740 is not a US Clear.

 

[asugeorge1]

It would take well over 200 50 kw stations all across the US to cover about 80% of the population in the daytime. Who is going to pay to build and maintain those stations and to keep a staff ready to do emergency broadcasts?

And 30% of US homes have no radio at all today, anyway.

The solution to a lot of this would have been to set up some LW stations across the United States like in Europe and have the LW band a part of radios sold in the United States. When I visited the UK about 10 years ago and rented a car, I had no idea what LW was on my car radio. Then I came across a few stations from the BBC and mainland Europe and my mind was blown that stations could exist as low as 198 kHz. For emergency matters, you can’t beat the reach and distance of the longwave band. Unfortunately, the US never embraced the longwave band so we are left to utilizing AM and FM for emergency situations.

 

[michael hagerty]

680 is not one of the 25 original US Clear channels and was therefore a Class 1-B, sharing the channel with Boston and Raleigh, despite being non-directional. It's been awhile but I'm thinking that KCBS was actually a Class 2 because 740 is not a US Clear.

Thanks for the correction.

Bottom line is that David's right. You'd need 300 clear channel AMs to adequately cover the lower 48, not all will survive whatever the disaster is if it affects their area and then there's the issue of what useful information is on the signal if it survives and how many people will access and act on that information.

Forgotten in this discussion seems to be that this isn't CONELRAD. We're not supposed to tune to 640 and 1240 in the event of an emergency. Today's EAS triggers boxes in the racks of all local AM and FM stations (not sure if there's an exemption for LPFM or not).

Just based on my travels (incomplete) there are very few populated areas of the US that have zero FM reception, and those, at least during the daytime, seem also to be without AM reception.

Given that AM's not gone yet and FM's considerably healthier, don't we have our broadcast safety net (understanding its limitations---beginning with whether local authorities choose to use it)?

 

[michael hagerty]

The solution to a lot of this would have been to set up some LW stations across the United States like in Europe and have the LW band a part of radios sold in the United States. When I visited the UK about 10 years ago and rented a car, I had no idea what LW was on my car radio. Then I came across a few stations from the BBC and mainland Europe and my mind was blown that stations could exist as low as 198 kHz. For emergency matters, you can’t beat the reach and distance of the longwave band. Unfortunately, the US never embraced the longwave band so we are left to utilizing AM and FM for emergency situations.

Quite a bit has changed in ten years. While the UK still has three long wave stations and 300 medium wave (AM), most of the rest of Europe shut off their MW stations in 2015 and Germany ended LW service in 2020.

The European Radio Map — Radiomap.eu

radiomap.eu

And if we had built LW in the US---say during or after World War II---who'd have operated them? Would there be profit pressures? Would anyone know today that they're there and what they're there for?

 

[Rusty Muck]

The closest we came to longwave in the US was the earliest iterations of Apex in 1936–1937, and that became terribly impractical with skywave propagation bouncing those stations to Europe and Australia with ease.

A handful of them were converted to 42–46 MHz FM: WNYE, WUKY and WBOE (the latter supplanted by what is now WCLV).

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

With Legalization Of Online Gambling No Sure Bet In California, Sports Betting Coalition Pulls Back On Political Ads.

With polls showing California's ballot measure to legalize online sports betting likely to lose in November, a group of gambling companies led by DraftKings and FanDuel has pulled back on

www.insideradio.com

Here is more as KGO-AM gets started in the Sports betting talk format.

 

[Mediafrog+]

The solution to a lot of this would have been to set up some LW stations across the United States like in Europe and have the LW band a part of radios sold in the United States.

An emergency system using longwave transmissions was proposed back in the 1970s, but outside of one prototype station, was never developed: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WGU-20

Audio sample of the station:

I recall trying to hear WGU-20 in west Texas at the time, but never had any luck, despite pulling in many other longwave signals.

 

[Michi]

Today's EAS triggers boxes in the racks of all local AM and FM stations (not sure if there's an exemption for LPFM or not).

LPFM stations are required to have EAS for at least decode only.

 

[michael hagerty]

LPFM stations are required to have EAS for at least decode only.

Thanks, Michi!

 

[davideduardo]

The solution to a lot of this would have been to set up some LW stations across the United States like in Europe and have the LW band a part of radios sold in the United States. When I visited the UK about 10 years ago and rented a car, I had no idea what LW was on my car radio. Then I came across a few stations from the BBC and mainland Europe and my mind was blown that stations could exist as low as 198 kHz. For emergency matters, you can’t beat the reach and distance of the longwave band. Unfortunately, the US never embraced the longwave band so we are left to utilizing AM and FM for emergency situations.

But in Europe LW is as dead as you can get. A couple of remaining transmitters are on the air "until the parts and tubes wear out" and most have been totally closed.

Even Medium Wave in Europe is nearly gone. This month, the big Spanish conglomerate PRISA shut down almost all of its remaining AMs, having moved them to FM.

Longwave was never used commercially anywhere in the Western Hemisphere. We call 540 to 1700 the "AM band" while it is really the "Medium Wave Band" in between Long Wave and Short Wave. In the US we never had long-wave and domestic short-wave was not allowed so AM to us is just that one band.

 

[davideduardo]

Given that AM's not gone yet and FM's considerably healthier, don't we have our broadcast safety net (understanding its limitations---beginning with whether local authorities choose to use it)?

The problem is that a major area-wide emergency will likely shut down all or most local stations, and distant FMs won't come in due to being below the local horizon. AM reception from outside an area is "iffy" at best, and at night there is no guarantee that any distant station will carry news for a far away market even if the signal may be usable.

If we look at the affected areas of SW Florida from two weeks ago, we can see that no Miami FM will reach a consumer radio in Ft Myers or the area around it. And all the Miami AM that have significant power are directional to the south or east at night, and only a couple have very marginal SE Florida signals. Other FL markets are too far away to have dependable service with existing facilities.

Of course, one or more Miami stations could be allowed non-directional operation for an emergency, but what station would want to abandon its format and revenue to serve a distant market?

 

[ercjncpr]

But in Europe LW is as dead as you can get. A couple of remaining transmitters are on the air "until the parts and tubes wear out" and most have been totally closed.

Even Medium Wave in Europe is nearly gone. This month, the big Spanish conglomerate PRISA shut down almost all of its remaining AMs, having moved them to FM.

Longwave was never used commercially anywhere in the Western Hemisphere. We call 540 to 1700 the "AM band" while it is really the "Medium Wave Band" in between Long Wave and Short Wave. In the US we never had long-wave and domestic short-wave was not allowed so AM to us is just that one band.

And yet all of these little multi-band radios from China are still being manufactured and shipped to the US with Longwave tuning.