A Change Coming to KGO

[gr8oldies]

The former CKLW jock you're referring to is Pat St. John, who spent 42 years working for FM stations here in New York City.

Yes, absolutely.

 

[Signal Geek]

But you can in Nevada and Arizona, where KGO puts in a strong signal after dark. A sports-betting format might actually work on a blowtorch at night, if they market it in those states.

I don't think KGO has a good night signal in Nevada. They're directional to the northwest and southeast, so they usually come in well in Southern California. And back in their glory years, the nighttime hosts sometimes took calls from as far north as Alaska.

 

[michael hagerty]

I don't think KGO has a good night signal in Nevada. They're directional to the northwest and southeast, so they usually come in well in Southern California. And back in their glory years, the nighttime hosts sometimes took calls from as far north as Alaska.

They throw a very solid nighttime signal into Reno and Lake Tahoe, and I’ve listened to them with surprisingly little interference in Las Vegas and Phoenix.

 

[boombox4]

And not to forget that Nevada is only a few hours' drive from most of California's biggest metros, and I'm certain that sports betting is a big deal in Nevada. I don't know how many hours it takes to go from the Bay Area to Reno, but it's not like driving 1000 miles to place a legal bet.

 

[boombox4]

Nothing is like it used to be. Nobody has an exclusive on anything anymore. That's how it is.

BTW just to clarify, there never was a time when everybody listened to Top 40. Maybe everybody you know, but not everybody.

There was a time when pop radio tried to be all things to all people. WABC played The Beatles, Buck Owens, Aretha Franklin, Jefferson Airplane, and Louis Armstrong records. They called it mass appeal. They got a 20 share. That meant 80% listened to something else. Then format radio took over in the 70s, and that never happened again.

KJR had a 50 share in Seattle in the 1960s. Now, that was definitely mass appeal.

 

[boombox4]

As for KGO, sad to see, but the station's still on the air, and if it makes money with sports betting, it will show the continued viability of radio in general, and AM radio in particular. Sports betting is a big deal. Some were speculating during the NFL's ratings dips in 2016-2018 that sports betting and fantasy football were propping up the ratings somewhat.

As for the old days, times have definitely changed -- I think that's obvious to everyone here.

We are entering the age where there is no more mass media. The definition of what makes a particular media actually "mass" media has changed. There is just media. And the lifetimes of "mass" media people have shortened. Apparently, the average popular YT influencer has a 5 year mass appeal lifetime -- at least according to influencer Rick Beato (a popular music YT guy). In a decade, who knows? Maybe it will be one year. Or three months. Or Andy Warhol's famous "fifteen minutes of fame."

 

[landtuna]

Yes, but even that still illustrates BigA’s point—-Just as many Tucson listeners weren’t listening to KTKT as were. And in most other markets, it was worse.

But the people who weren't listening were divided up by the other 10 or so other stations on air at that time. And KTKT was never going to get the religious, Country, news and MOR listeners anyway.

 

[TheBigA]

But yes, if a Country artist got into the top 15 or so on the pop charts, WABC played it. Plenty of Kenny Rogers, Anne Murray, John Denver, etc.

Roger Miller, Johnny Cash, Bobbie Gentry, Jim Reeves, Johnny Horton, Stonewall Jackson, Tennessee Ernie Ford.

 

[Negin]

K-Love doesn't buy AM stations, unless one is needed for an FM translator.

I don't think I caught their spew on the MW side yet. Unless it's in some remote spot.

 

[davideduardo]

I meant to say KGO. But you never know. KOA could be next.

Not when it is the #1 billing station in the market with double the revenue of the #2 station.

 

[davideduardo]

At least for now KGO didn't fall for the virus we call KLove.

K-Love is not a virus to many Christians who appreciate the programming and all their outreach programs.

There are formats I don't care for or listen to. But I respect a station that earns a large share of listening, no matter what it is doing. You are not expected to like every station... and today there are more different formats in every market than ever before.

 

[davideduardo]

During the late 50's KTKT held 50% of the listeners in Tucson. OK, it wasn't a major market back then but that's a superb achievement. Frank Kalil was the PD then.

The highest shares KTKT ever got was in 1956, when it had a 29.9. In the earlier 60's it was around a 22 to 25 share, and by 1969 it had dropped below a 20 share. In 1970, it was beaten by KAIR, and by 1975, it was down to a 10 share and being beaten by KIKX-580.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, but even that still illustrates BigA’s point—-Just as many Tucson listeners weren’t listening to KTKT as were. And in most other markets, it was worse.

In fact, looking at the pre-FM mid-60's there were 11 other stations getting the 74% of listening that KTKT did not have. Double digits were KCEE, KHOS and KTUC. Over a 5 share were KXEW and KCNA-580.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Not when it is the #1 billing station in the market with double the revenue of the #2 station.

KOA has also been evolving its lineup to be more sports-centric with the Rockies and Broncos as the centerpiece.

KGO never evolved under ABC management and when Cumulus bought Citadel, they were stuck with an expensive white elephant that was simply untenable.

 

[davideduardo]

KGO never evolved under ABC management and when Cumulus bought Citadel, they were stuck with an expensive white elephant that was simply untenable.

And they stuck with the model of high TSL even if the cume was low... which blew up on them with the PPM came out. They did nothing to look at 8 years of PPM testing in Philly and Houston, thinking SF was different. They lost half of their shares when the PPM came out.

 

[semoochie]

Semoochie:

First, signal. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. There are parts of the Bay Area where some FM signals have issues. And it varies by where you are and which station we're talking about.

It's not the same problem as existed in the 1970s and before, with drifting FM signals and multipath issues. The introduction of multipath rejection and phase loop locking in FM radios---especially FM car radios---cured a lot of that and made FM competitive.

The book where KFRC beat everyone---even KGO---was April/May 1978. Here's the SF top ten in that book:
1. KFRC-AM (Top 40): 8.4
2. KGO-AM (Talk): 7.6
3. KSFO-AM (A/C): 6.5
4. KCBS-AM (News): 5.8
5. KFOG-FM (Beautiful): 4.4
6. KIOI-FM (A/C): 3.9
7. KABL-AM (Beautiful): 3.5
8. KSFX-FM (Disco): 3.4
9. KNBR-AM (A/C): 3.3
10. KDIA-AM (R&B): 3.2

Worth noting that KABL-AM had a 3.5 while KABL-FM had a 2.4. KSFO's numbers were inflated by having Giants baseball (they were a 3.8 in the winter book).

Also, hilly terrain wasn't the entire reason for KFRC's dominance. It was one helluva radio station (as was KGO at the time). But the hilly terrain kept would-be competitors from investing in talent and promotion for their FMs at the level that would allow them to succeed in any significant way against KFRC. They largely chose lower-cost formats or formats that worked well in homes, stores and offices, where they didn't have to hit moving receivers.

But the walls were cracking----look at KIOI. In that winter book where KSFO got a 3.8? K-101 had a 3.7. And KNBR had a 3.0. So that format (A/C) was beginning to see significant impact from FM.

As for The Game Zone: KFRC launched that on April 18, 1985. The winter '84/'85 Arbitron was already out. Here's the top ten (eleven because of a tie):

1. KGO-AM (Talk): 8.8
2. KCBS-AM (News): 5.3
3. KYUU-FM (some called it A/C, some called it CHR): 4.1
4. KIOI-FM (same as KYUU---if these were A/C, they were very hot A/Cs): 3.5
5. KSOL-FM (R&B): 3.4
6. KABL-FM (Beautiful): 3.3
7. KSAN-FM (Country): 3.2
8. KFRC-AM (CHR): 3.1
9. KNBR-AM (A/C): 2.8
10. KFOG-FM (AOR): 2.7
10. KRQR-FM (AOR): 2.7

At first glance, that doesn't look too bad for KFRC. But clearly, contemporary music listening had moved to FM. KFRC and KNBR were the only AM music stations in the top ten.

Also, format changes rarely happen on the spur of the moment. You can bet RKO thought long and hard about The Game Zone before pulling the trigger.

KFRC was below a 3 share two books in a row before that winter 3.1---a 2.6 in summer of '84 and a 2.7 in fall. That 2.6 had KFRC in 13th place. The ranking improved to 9th in the fall '84 book, but it was only a 0.1 increase---KFRC went up in ranking because other stations did worse---and they weren't the stations KFRC was competing with.

Did the Game Zone hurt KFRC? Oh, hell yes---it was only on for half of the April/May '85 book and it sent the station crashing to a 1.9. But was KFRC in a situation where they just could have left it alone and it would have recovered? Nah.

Frankly, my suspicion has always been that Walt Sabo's real intention was to flip KFRC to standards all along. He was already offering his services to other stations with his approach to the format. And when RKO finally decided to go for it in August of 1986, it was his format they used.

Now that you mention it, #8 sounds familiar but I was thinking it was after the Game Zone which made it to Portland around 1988. I think Magic 61 Adult Standards came in at #4.

 

[Miss Tuned]

If I had a dollar for every time I've had to explain that broadcasters are trying to hit 37-year-old adults.....

I'm 37 next month and have just hit the point where the CHR and Rhythmic Contemporary stations I've always listened to are making me go "oh for god's sake, why are you playing this garbage again?" on an increasingly regular basis (and with slightly more four-letter words). It's definitely a thing.

I don't want to listen to talk radio during a particularly depressing trash fire news period, and I don't want to listen to sports radio - for me, sports is a social thing shared with friends at the weekend, not something I want to hear about discussed on the radio all week ad infinitum. And the idea of listening to sports betting content all day is just depressing.

I've mostly gravitated towards Soft AC, or AAA, or classic alternative, just something, anything that's not endless pumping house beats on a 40-minute rotation. I never wanted to be that person who stopped listening to new music, but it comes to us all! At least I'm aware it's happened, and I'm not complaining about ageing out of Top 40 radio or pretending the stations should cater for me until I'm in my grave.

 

[asugeorge1]

Name 'em.

Okay, you could do a traditional all-sports format as opposed to something that is illegal in the state of California. You could do talk that is live and local like before Cumulus blew it up. A Chinese language station considering the sizable Chinese population in the Bay Area. Maybe a Spanish language music or talk station, oldies, Christian talk, etc… In my mind, anything would be better than a betting station for something that is still illegal in California.

 

[asugeorge1]

Huh? They weren't successful in 2011. The station was losing money. Most of the local hosts were in their 70s. Same with the audience. Gene Burns died in 2013. Staying the course was not a format for the future. For the past 8 years they stuck with live & local talk through the pandemic, and it was going nowhere.



That's based on KCBS and KNBR, both of which have FM simulcasts, but are listed in Nielsen as AM stations.

They were #1 in San Francisco up until the PPM era in, what was it, the year 2008? They were still ranked pretty high in 2011 and whatever listeners they had they mostly lost based on their ill-advised format changes. Also, David said that AM listenership is 15% in San Francisco, higher than most other metropolitan areas. I don’t think that figure takes into account FM simulcasts, but I could be wrong since it was David that mentioned the 15% number.

 

[davideduardo]

Maybe a Spanish language music or talk station,

AM is so little used that Mexico eliminated about 80% of all AM stations in the last few years. The four Spanish language AMs in Los Angeles don't add up to even 1 share point together, and all of that is over 50 years old. And other than politicized Miami, talk in Spanish has never worked except for a brief period in the 90's in LA.