Another Pittsburgh rimshot?

[Parttimer]

I give you guys in Butler a lot of credit. Same goes for WJPA.

And Ken makes a good point, you can't sell syndicated talk to local small business owners, if they disagree with the host they won't be on his/hershow.

The 620/770 combo does it differently but gets it done.

I think Renda's also doing pretty well with 107.1 in Greensburg, and WLSW has been solid for a long time.

WBVP and WMBA are still surviving as well. 590 in Uniontown is another one that's hanging in there.

So despite my negative position, mostly in the interest of playing devil's advocate, a lot of these suburban stations are actually doing OK.

The endangered species list includes WKZV in Washington, WACB in Kittanning, WEDO in McKeesport, 660, and 1550 .

But they're not alone, 970 and KQV are reportedly on shaky ground as well.

 

[Whiplash]

Good and correct post. Add the stations in Indiana, PA owned by Mr. Renda to the success list. WTYM (not WACB) in Kittanning is doing well, because its the only game in town.

It is a shame that nothing more is done with the former WCVI in Connellsville, and the former WESA AM in Charleroi. Forever has dropped the ball on these, and should sell them off.

But the way Renda is doing it in Indiana, and the way Ken and his co-workers are doing it in Butler, is THE way that hometown radio continues to survive.

 

[Biz Listener]

I see. I understand. No one wants to answer the questions that I asked, so instead everyone who responded answered a different question. That's pretty much what I expected.

 

[cingram]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it's important for towns on the perimiter of larger cities that have been turned into suburbs of the bigger city to still have "local" stations that "server the local community" when it's clear that the local communities aren't really serving the local radio stations.

There are plenty of business plans for how to make a profit with a small town station that few people listen to.

There are plenty of heaps of praise for the small town programs that stations broadcasting into the ether that few people tune in to hear.

But there's nothing about why it's wrong for small town stations to follow the example of the people who live near their transmitters and act like they're part of the larger, metro market.

On this last point in particular, I have to agree with BL.

Once upon a time I believed that "local" was the most important thing. People like Howard Stern and Rush Limbaugh convinced me otherwise. Being good, entertaining, and compelling is the most important thing.

There is, however, a significant difference between AM and FM models. WMBS, for example, has done well for many years because it super-serves Fayette County and doesn't try to be a Pittsburgh station. I am sure other suburban AMs like WISR, WBVP, and WCNS do well for the same reason.

On the other hand - if you have a suburban FM station, you have a competitive situation where all of the Pittsburgh stations blanket your coverage area, but you don't cover Pittsburgh (at least not well). I think it is incumbent upon such stations to try to be as good as the Pittsburgh FM stations and "compete" with them in the local listening area.

It is one of the ironies of the terrain around here that I can listen to WISR (and even WBUT if I make an effort), but can't hear WLER. While WISR and WBUT are local AM stations, and have their specific audience, WLER is competing with all the Pittsburgh FM stations in Butler County. I hope they're doing it well.

C.

 

[Parttimer]

I see. I understand. No one wants to answer the questions that I asked, so instead everyone who responded answered a different question. That's pretty much what I expected.

It's not that no one wants to answer it (and why wouldn't we want to, anyway?). I personally don't have an answer, and that appears to be the unanimous opinion. Sometimes we just don't know.....

 

[Parttimer]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain why it's important for towns on the perimiter of larger cities that have been turned into suburbs of the bigger city to still have "local" stations that "server the local community" when it's clear that the local communities aren't really serving the local radio stations.

There are plenty of business plans for how to make a profit with a small town station that few people listen to.

There are plenty of heaps of praise for the small town programs that stations broadcasting into the ether that few people tune in to hear.

But there's nothing about why it's wrong for small town stations to follow the example of the people who live near their transmitters and act like they're part of the larger, metro market.

Actually now that I think about it I did answer your question. Let me reiterate....

If you try to act like a big market station, you had better be as good or better than those stations, or you will go out of business. Otherwise you need to sell niche programming to niche advertisers.

That's my final answer, Regis.....

 

[Biz Listener]

Actually now that I think about it I did answer your question. Let me reiterate....

If you try to act like a big market station, you had better be as good or better than those stations, or you will go out of business. Otherwise you need to sell niche programming to niche advertisers.

That's my final answer, Regis.....

Considering that the exact same songs played on big market stations are available to any small market station, and a jingle package doesn't cost all that much, how difficult is it to be "as good or better" than the stations in larger markets? And, if you plug in a satellite feed, the small market station will be identical to the large market stations.

 

[cingram]

Considering that the exact same songs played on big market stations are available to any small market station, and a jingle package doesn't cost all that much, how difficult is it to be "as good or better" than the stations in larger markets? And, if you plug in a satellite feed, the small market station will be identical to the large market stations.

While some songs are more popular with listeners than others, and therefore "better" to play, the music is merely the price of admission. Get it wrong and you don't compete.

I love jingles but it seems that they are used less and less these days, and the notion that music and jingles make a radio station sounds simplistic to me.

Also, most large-market FM stations don't use a satellite feed, unless you are counting Tom Kent on 3WS or Delilah/John Tesh on WSHH, to cite a few examples.

C.

 

[Biz Listener]

Also, most large-market FM stations don't use a satellite feed, unless you are counting Tom Kent on 3WS or Delilah/John Tesh on WSHH, to cite a few examples.

C.

The average listener in his car driving to work doesn't know (or care) if what he's hearing was voice-tracked on one city and then piped through a console on Fleet Street before being bumped out of an transmission antenna or if it is being generated live in another city and being downloaded from a satellite before being piped through a console in some nearby small town before it goes out the tower. All he cares is that when he hits the button on his car radio, something will come out his speakers that he likes. Hard core radio geeks make a big deal about where the person talking into the mic between songs is sitting, and whether he's live or Memorex. Actual radio listeners don't care.

As for jingles and the like, I'm like most listeners. I ignore them. Maybe they do something subliminal (drink Coke) but all that imaging stuff is pretty much background noise to most listeners. Often it's the cue to hit the button for another station, because the one I'm listening to is done playing music and is about to start a commercial set.

The thing is, the details of what I said about how to make a small town station sound like a big town station can be challenged, but the principle cannot. It's not that hard for a small town station with a small town budget to sound like a typical, penny-pinching big city station.

 

[Parttimer]

The thing is, the details of what I said about how to make a small town station sound like a big town station can be challenged, but the principle cannot. It's not that hard for a small town station with a small town budget to sound like a typical, penny-pinching big city station.

Then why doesn't it ever seem to happen if it's so easy? Please cite some examples of small-town stations that are indistinguishable from their big-time counterparts. Based on your premise, there must be hundreds of them.

 

[Biz Listener]

The thing is, the details of what I said about how to make a small town station sound like a big town station can be challenged, but the principle cannot. It's not that hard for a small town station with a small town budget to sound like a typical, penny-pinching big city station.

Then why doesn't it ever seem to happen if it's so easy? Please cite some examples of small-town stations that are indistinguishable from their big-time counterparts. Based on your premise, there must be hundreds of them.

Tell you what. The next time I'm taking a cross country trip and can listen to small town radio stations, I'll jot down some notes. I don't know what small town stations are sending out their towers. I don't live in a small town. And I'm not likely to be able to travel all over hell and back to listen to them. And you probably can't do it, either. I can no more prove that there are lots of small town stations whose management decided to make them sound like big city stations than you can prove the contrary.

It can't be that difficult for someone who owns a small town station to go to yes.com and download the playlists of several of the top big market stations he wants to copy and crunch the results down to a playlist for himself that even includes rotation information. He can buy an "imaging" package somewhere that the average listener couldn't tell from a big city imaging package. And finding disc jockeys who can read liner cards can't be that hard. Aside from those things, what differences would an average listener notice that would betray the fact that the small station's tower is located in a different direction from him than all the big city towers, as long as he doesn't drive outside of its signal range?

If a guy lives in Cranberry, and drives to work on the turnpike to a job in Monroeville, how would he know if the station he was listening to had its stick to the south of his route or to the north of it, as long as the signals stayed strong? If a guy from Robinson Township drives to a job in Southpointe, if he listens to the radio in his office during the workday, would he hear an obvious difference in overall content between 3WS and WJPA (not counting station ID's)?

 

[Parttimer]

I see. I understand. No one wants to answer the questions that I asked, so instead everyone who responded answered a different question. That's pretty much what I expected.

 

[kenhawk1160]

If you try to act like a big market station, you had better be as good or better than those stations, or you will go out of business. Otherwise you need to sell niche programming to niche advertisers.

Well said, Parttimer.

 

[corporateradiosucks]

If a guy from Robinson Township drives to a job in Southpointe, if he listens to the radio in his office during the workday, would he hear an obvious difference in overall content between 3WS and WJPA (not counting station ID's)?

Yes. WJPA wouldn't suck. Well, maybe suck is a strong word...but he would hear different songs on WJPA than on 3WS, and not the same different songs every day either. The DJs seem to have much more freedom in what they play even though they're working with a narrower time frame (WJPA hasn't dipped its toe much past 1982, if that).

By contrast, if you listen to 3WS with any regularity, there are songs that you will hear every. freaking. day. "Kokomo" is the biggest offender. And everything is from the top 20 from whenever it came out.

Waaaaaay back in the day, Glu 92 in Johnstown was the same way - comparing it to B 94. I heard many more of the new English bands for the very first time on Glu 92. B 94 just jumped on the bandwagon.

 

[kenhawk1160]

The thing is, the details of what I said about how to make a small town station sound like a big town station can be challenged, but the principle cannot. It's not that hard for a small town station with a small town budget to sound like a typical, penny-pinching big city station.

Of course it's not hard. The examples of small town stations we've read posts about are very good examples of that. They can sound every bit as good as the big guys but air information that's relative to the local market. Clarke, I think you mentioned that 'DVE and the other Pittsburgh stations compete with our WLER, and they do, but to a lesser degree.

Here's why...in downtown Butler, if you've ever been there, it's situated in a very deep and narrow valley. There's a lot of Pittsburgh stations that can't be heard in town. But there's others that can. While that works to our advantage, we also give listeners reasons to tune in. We have a very entertaining and interactive morning show that does get out and about with promotions like "Perk-n-ride", and such. We sound every bit as good as the boys in the 'burgh, but we don't identify ourselves as such.

We do however, market ourselves as a Western Pennsylvania station, serving Butler, Beaver, Armstrong, Venango, Clarion, Westmoreland, Mercer, Lawrence and Allegheny (north) Counties. There's a difference between that and a suburban station with a B grade or lower signal trying to be a Pittsburgh station. Our AMs are pretty much county-exclusive and any one of our three stations is heard in just about every business here.

If Bob Stevens wants to move 103.1 out of Greene County's seat, so be it. I would hope he uses that AM that's being left behind to offer some local radio service to Greene County. Don't try to tell me the advertiser support isn't there. It is. You just have to try. Clear Channel did it with a little AM simulcaster they inherited with a 50,000 watt FM in Tiffin, Ohio. They regionalized the FM and turned the little AM pea-shooter into a cannon that's highly community-focused. And guess what...they ran with it, still managed to do it cheap, and it made money.

 

[Biz Listener]

If a guy from Robinson Township drives to a job in Southpointe, if he listens to the radio in his office during the workday, would he hear an obvious difference in overall content between 3WS and WJPA (not counting station ID's)?

Yes. WJPA wouldn't suck. Well, maybe suck is a strong word...but he would hear different songs on WJPA than on 3WS, and not the same different songs every day either. The DJs seem to have much more freedom in what they play even though they're working with a narrower time frame (WJPA hasn't dipped its toe much past 1982, if that).

By contrast, if you listen to 3WS with any regularity, there are songs that you will hear every. freaking. day. "Kokomo" is the biggest offender. And everything is from the top 20 from whenever it came out.

Waaaaaay back in the day, Glu 92 in Johnstown was the same way - comparing it to B 94. I heard many more of the new English bands for the very first time on Glu 92. B 94 just jumped on the bandwagon.

All those things are probably true (I haven't been in a position to listen to Pittsburgh radio in a long time, and I never voluntarily listen to oldies). But would the average radio listener know that WJPA's bigger playlist was an indication that they were a small market station? If an average oldies fan radio listener was sitting in an office in Southpoint, on his first day on the job after transferring in from Oklahoma and he didn't know anything about the geography of the area, would he be able to tell from listening to those two stations that one was a big city station and the other was a small town station?

Remember, this is while he's at work, so high school football on Saturday doesn't enter into the equation. And, assume he's not a radio geek, he's just an ordinary guy who likes to listen to oldies while he works.

If Bob Stevens wants to move 103.1 out of Greene County's seat, so be it. I would hope he uses that AM that's being left behind to offer some local radio service to Greene County. Don't try to tell me the advertiser support isn't there. It is. You just have to try. Clear Channel did it with a little AM simulcaster they inherited with a 50,000 watt FM in Tiffin, Ohio. They regionalized the FM and turned the little AM pea-shooter into a cannon that's highly community-focused. And guess what...they ran with it, still managed to do it cheap, and it made money.

You're still talking about what the station has to do to make money, and there's nothing at all wrong with that. But why does a station need to serve the local community if the local community won't support the local station?

Niche marketing stuff to get advertisers to throw away money on radio commercials is one thing. And that's all well and good and I don't dispute it or argue against it. Clearly, that's a reality of the business of radio. I'm talking about the people who go an as if radio stations had some sort of moral imperative or obligation to provide local content for people who don't want to listen to local content, and who tune in the distant signals of big city stations regardless of what the local station plays.

Like Parttimer says, the local stations don't draw much in the way of ratings, so all the localism schtick is pretty much a gimmick to impress local businesses to get them to buy commercials. I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with that from a business perspective. No one needs to defend it as being a good business practice. But if a broadcaster can make even more money by moving his stick to reach more people who will tune his station in, why shouldn't he take the opportunity and run with it?

 

[cingram]

The average listener in his car driving to work doesn't know (or care) if what he's hearing was voice-tracked on one city and then piped through a console on Fleet Street before being bumped out of an transmission antenna or if it is being generated live in another city and being downloaded from a satellite before being piped through a console in some nearby small town before it goes out the tower. All he cares is that when he hits the button on his car radio, something will come out his speakers that he likes. Hard core radio geeks make a big deal about where the person talking into the mic between songs is sitting, and whether he's live or Memorex. Actual radio listeners don't care.

Actually, listeners (particularly big-city listeners) are more sophisticated than you give them credit for. There's an increasing awareness of voice-tracking, and even of Clear Channel. I wouldn't say people choose their radio stations based on this, but the audience is becoming sensitized to and less tolerant of it, especially when it's done badly and/or the out-of-town talent makes mistakes that prove they're not local. (North Ver-SIGH, anyone?)

As for jingles and the like, I'm like most listeners. I ignore them. Maybe they do something subliminal (drink Coke) but all that imaging stuff is pretty much background noise to most listeners. Often it's the cue to hit the button for another station, because the one I'm listening to is done playing music and is about to start a commercial set.

If the music is the cake, and the personalities are the icing on the cake, then jingles and imaging are the candles on the cake. You certainly can have a birthday cake without them, but it's not very exciting. without jingles/imaging and personalities, anyone's iPod will do.

The thing is, the details of what I said about how to make a small town station sound like a big town station can be challenged, but the principle cannot. It's not that hard for a small town station with a small town budget to sound like a typical, penny-pinching big city station.

The biggest difference is, or at least should be, the personalities. Anyone can play the right music if they're savvy enough, but there's a big difference between, say, someone like Bob Dearborn and some kid with a squeaky voice. (If you don't want to use the music model, compare the great talk show hosts to the mediocre or incompetent ones.)

C.

 

[kenhawk1160]

But why does a station need to serve the local community if the local community won't support the local station?

What proof do you have of that? Unless things have changed drastically, WANB's business community happily supported that station for many years. I didn't hear a commercial free radio station when I last listened to it, which admittedly was several years ago. It was everywhere.

 

[Biz Listener]

If the music is the cake, and the personalities are the icing on the cake, then jingles and imaging are the candles on the cake. You certainly can have a birthday cake without them, but it's not very exciting. without jingles/imaging and personalities, anyone's iPod will do.

I'd say they're more like the little holders that the candles fit into, or maybe the lace doily that they bakery puts under the cake. Or maybe the string that holds the cake box shut on the way home from the bakery.

The biggest difference is, or at least should be, the personalities. Anyone can play the right music if they're savvy enough, but there's a big difference between, say, someone like Bob Dearborn and some kid with a squeaky voice. (If you don't want to use the music model, compare the great talk show hosts to the mediocre or incompetent ones.)

Since when is anyone allowed to have a personality on the air, other than morning guys. And I wasn't talking about "some kid with a squeaky voice". There are plenty of people out there who'd love to work on the radio who have decent pipes.

As for talk shows, there's no comparison. On a talk show, the host is the show. On music format radio, the disc jockey (in the 12st century) is a left-over from yesteryear. I'm not saying anything bad about the guys from the olden days prior to the 1990's. But on today's radio, disc jockeys are only a small step above jingles in importance. That's all that the suits running radio today allow them to be.

 

[kenhawk1160]

If a guy from Robinson Township drives to a job in Southpointe, if he listens to the radio in his office during the workday, would he hear an obvious difference in overall content between 3WS and WJPA (not counting station ID's)?

Absolutely. WJPA airs local news every hour on the hour all day every weekday. You get newscasts that are like 15 minutes long in AM drive, then shorter ones about two minutes long in middays, a big one at noon and 5pm, and 10-minute ones in PM drive. And it's Washington County first, then Pittsburgh's South Hills second, then the surrounding counties.

The newscasts almost always have sound in them. There's AM stations on the dial that don't even use soundbites anymore. JPA still does. The owner loves it.

You will also notice the content of music. JPA has a much deeper library that 3WS has. You can still hear Elvis and Little Richard every once in a while on JPA, while these core oldies artists are falling by the wayside on most oldies stations.

Someone on this board said JPA hasn't progressed much past 1982. Maybe not, but they don't have to. The formula that worked then is still working today, because the advertisers who support that station are where the stick is. It's radio that's both profitable and listenable.

And...they blip in just about every Arbitron book. It's usually less than a 1 share, but so what? They sell by reputation, not the numbers. All it is is an added bonus that might help you pick up a few agency dollars along the way.