Best Buy's new HD Radio Shelf System

[hipporadio]

rbruce... Are you sure that you don’t “moonlight” as a qualified “retail marketing consultant”? Your prior post is excellent, and you are RIGHT-ON in your analogy!

Back to our old buddy—Durabrand... In the business, we call such a concept—a “generic equivalent”. Successful chain retailers that have reached a “critical mass” [to buy in significant volume] often “dabble” with the prospect of offering them; but they try to do-so WITHOUT accepting name-related responsibility. So, WHY offer them? Well, I suppose that most human-driven “retail machines” want to accommodate nearly-every potential customer—possibly, except for the notorious Apple – and in the C.E. biz—a brand like McIntosh [later sold to Jenson—go-figure :].

Let’s look to the grocery biz for a reasonable analogy... A “blast from the past” here—A&P [they actually invented multi-level in-store branding back in the early-60s]. A&P’s top “store brand” was Ann Page [get it?]; there was the “A&P” brand; then the “generic equivalent”—Sultana—note NO name-association. In modern times, the Midwest-based Marsh chain [owned by Sun Capital] badges “M” as its best; “Marsh” as its heritage store brand; “Yorktown”—named after the community that hosts its distribution center; then “Value-Time” as is generic-equivalent [note again—NO retail name association]. In reality, Value-Time is an INDEPENDENT distributor—removed from its retail host but available exclusively at Marsh locations. Durabrand is the Sultana and Value-Time of the chain-hosted consumer electronics biz... It IS NOT a WalMart in-store brand. Wally is as “sharp-as-a-tack” and would NEVER name himself such—heck, a 10-year-old on a “bender” could do better! Insignia [as its name implies] wears the emblem of Best Buy, and is a “click up” on the non-name-brand scale. Actually—it rates with grocer Kroger’s “Prime Selection” in-store brand in its success. Possibly—it is a great venue to introduce HD Radio at a “popular price”.

But I digress...

...ONE PRODUCT whose relationship with ONE dubious non-badged manufacturer; available at a price that changes with ANY opportunity; within ONE chain [only] of retail stores—TOTALING 0.2 percent of ALL retail consumer-electronics sales—IS NOT a lifeline for an ill-conceived product [created within THE NARROWEST of SELF-interest] that REPEATED and MULTIPLE surveys show as a “consumer non-starter”!

And THAT’S the “reality check” here!

 

[hipporadio]

CORRECTION... "Kroger"... "Privite Selection". Sorry

 

[Mike Walker]

With all due respect, it isn't "one product" at "one retailer", but a group of new products, at every lower prices...products that are a great buy with or without the inclusion of HD. It's also HD available on ALL Ford models. It's the world's largest consumer electronics company, Sony, backing HD. Saying things like that really doesn't do your side of the argument any justice. Honest HD backers don't dismiss evidence of interference, especially on AM where interference is demonstrable, and audible (I've heard it!)

You don't do your side of the argument any favors by dismissing evidence that significant market forces are at work, and that the news has been quite good (for availability of new product, backing by major manufacturers and one of the largest car companies, etc). When broadcast technology becomes successful, this is how it happens. It's still very early in the game. I don't know whether HD will be a success. Be honest...neither do you.

 

[clouseau]

With all due respect, it isn't "one product" at "one retailer", but a group of new products, at every lower prices...products that are a great buy with or without the inclusion of HD. It's also HD available on ALL Ford models. It's the world's largest consumer electronics company, Sony, backing HD. Saying things like that really doesn't do your side of the argument any justice. Honest HD backers don't dismiss evidence of interference, especially on AM where interference is demonstrable, and audible (I've heard it!)

You don't do your side of the argument any favors by dismissing evidence that significant market forces are at work, and that the news has been quite good (for availability of new product, backing by major manufacturers and one of the largest car companies, etc). When broadcast technology becomes successful, this is how it happens. It's still very early in the game. I don't know whether HD will be a success. Be honest...neither do you.

Now hold on there...

We all know that HD is a total and unequivocable failure. Still born. Flawed. Defective. Destructive. Jamming. Titantic 2000 of broadcasting failure.

While I try to be honest and tell the truth here, We can NOT have you saying "Honest HD backers don't dismiss evidence of interference".. You're making it up.

You have missed the memo. Anyone who does not march in time to the Anto HD radio alliance is a Bold faced, dope smoking certifiable lyer.

Get on the program, dude.

Clouseau

 

[hipporadio]

With all due respect, it isn't "one product" at "one retailer", but a group of new products, at every lower prices...

WHAT? [Arousing “The Caveman”]... WHAT do you mean by that?

...It's also HD available on ALL Ford models.

ONLY IF you request it AFTER all the under-coating offers and extended warranties offered by the “salesman”.

...It’s also the world's largest consumer electronics company, Sony, backing HD.

OH... Sony "IS backing HD"—with ONE MODEL in the same format that has REPEATEDLY-FAILED when offered by other “names”—NEVER to grace HD with a follow-up! WHERE is their “commitment” in their home A/V surround-sound receiver line?

You don't do your side of the argument any favors by dismissing evidence that significant market forces are at work.

MARKET FORCES[!]—WHAT market forces, Mike? EVERY single “market survey” I see within MY PROFESSION [DEMANDED to pay attention to such] and even those published by [AND FOR] the radio biz—show “consumer interest in HD Radio” at the TAIL-END of their “wish lists”—EVEN BELOW a preference for “good AM quality and reception”!

 

[Radioman100]

OH... Sony "IS backing HD"—with ONE MODEL in the same format that has REPEATEDLY-FAILED when offered by other “names”—NEVER to grace HD with a follow-up! WHERE is their “commitment” in their home A/V surround-sound receiver line?

Sony also makes a mobile tuner and car stereos designed to work with it.

 

[WhiplashChick]

OH... Sony "IS backing HD"—with ONE MODEL in the same format that has REPEATEDLY-FAILED when offered by other “names”—NEVER to grace HD with a follow-up! WHERE is their “commitment” in their home A/V surround-sound receiver line?

Sony also makes a mobile tuner and car stereos designed to work with it.

i suspect most companies will do that. alpine does. why integrate it when you can make people buy two components?

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Stopped in Best Buy Thursday night; Sony HD car radio is BS as you have to buy a $100 add on HD tuner (plus $50 rebate later).
HOWEVER, the Sony HD Tabletop radio performed half way decent on FM and had good sound; BUT AM was unusuable with either of the two local AM HD's and not a selling point.
Did not find the BB HD tuner unit.

 

[Radioman100]

Stopped in Best Buy Thursday night; Sony HD car radio is BS as you have to buy a $100 add on HD tuner (plus $50 rebate later).
HOWEVER, the Sony HD Tabletop radio performed half way decent on FM and had good sound; BUT AM was unusuable with either of the two local AM HD's and not a selling point.
Did not find the BB HD tuner unit.

Did you get any AM radios to work at all inside a Best Buy? I'd be really surprised if you did, HD or otherwise.

 

[Mike Walker]

Anyone who thinks the "form factor" of the high quality table radio has "already failed" should quickly notify Bose, Cambridge Soundworks, Polk, Tivoli Audio, Sangean, and the many other companies now producing such products. At 199, if the Sony sounds as good as models from other manufacturers, again it's LESS expensive than competing products that don't have HD, making the HD practically a freebie.

Geez, if you think this product catagory is a "failure", you really should examine the market! When things "fail", others don't rush to get on the bandwagon, making similar, and hopefully better products! Bose hit on something with the "Wave Radio". Cambridge Soundworks bettered it. Ditto Tivoli with classic analog tuning (both Cambridge and Tivoli had far better tuners than Bose). And others have added innovation, and economy of scale to this product area. Again, 200 bucks is a VERY LOW price for these devices, so HD AGAIN can be looked at as added value for no cost. HARDLY a failure.

 

[Radioman100]

Anyone who thinks the "form factor" of the high quality table radio has "already failed" should quickly notify Bose, Cambridge Soundworks, Polk, Tivoli Audio, Sangean, and the many other companies now producing such products. At 199, if the Sony sounds as good as models from other manufacturers, again it's LESS expensive than competing products that don't have HD, making the HD practically a freebie.

Geez, if you think this product catagory is a "failure", you really should examine the market! When things "fail", others don't rush to get on the bandwagon, making similar, and hopefully better products! Bose hit on something with the "Wave Radio". Cambridge Soundworks bettered it. Ditto Tivoli with classic analog tuning (both Cambridge and Tivoli had far better tuners than Bose). And others have added innovation, and economy of scale to this product area. Again, 200 bucks is a VERY LOW price for these devices, so HD AGAIN can be looked at as added value for no cost. HARDLY a failure.

Last year, Sony came out with a product called "the radio." It was a model ICF-M1000 and it was a sleek, black, non-HD executive tabletop radio, obviously Sony's answer to the Bose and Tivoli offerings.

The XDR-S3HD has replaced the ICF-M1000 in Sony's product line and is also branded as "the radio" though the only place I've seen the XDR-S3HD called "the radio" is on its box.

The original analog "the radio" had a product life of just over a year, which seems short. You can still find it on Amazon from one retailer, but it's no longer on the SonyStyle website, the HD version is.

I'm sure Sony never expected to make its fortune on high-end table radios, but you have to wonder why they would tool up to produce a product like the analog "the radio" for just over a year then discontinue it. Maybe Sony believes in HD Radio more than some people think.

The new "the radio" has been out of stock on the SonyStyle website for a while now. They're also sold out of them at my local Fry's store as of a few weeks ago and had 3 on the shelf a few weeks before that. It appears Sony underestimated the popularity of this product and their production runs haven't been large enough.

 

[Chuck]

Keep in mind that Sony wants to keep you as a loyal Sony customer. That's why they want to cover all bases. While not as loyal as Apple fans, there is a certain cache to the Sony moniker. Many people are life long believers in their products. Sony sells a lot based on their earlier successes. Once you had a Trinitron TV, you never went back. Their (deserved) reputation is for making very good consumer electronics. People will choose the Sony brand based on previous good experiences or reputation, even if it costs a bit more. Toyota and Honda have done the same thing in the automotive world.

If they abandoned a segment of the market to another manufacturer, they risk losing more market share down the road. What if their loyal fans were given the opportunity to discover that Samsung, JVC or Panasonic make pretty good electronics too?

A company like Sony has to offer just about everything, even if some things are not huge successes. It's part of the cost of doing business.

 

[Mike Walker]

Obviously high quality table radios are a niche market. But a profitable one for a variety of companies. Sony's getting to be like Microsoft in that they may not have anything original to offer, but that doesn't keep 'em from inhabiting EVERY market niche. Not that Sony doesn't make some great products. It's just that they don't seem to be first at anything, anymore.

 

[hipporadio]

Anyone who thinks the "form factor" of the high quality table radio has "already failed" should quickly notify Bose, Cambridge Soundworks, Polk, Tivoli Audio, Sangean, and the many other companies now producing such products... Geez, if you think this product catagory is a "failure", you really should examine the market! When things "fail", others don't rush to get on the bandwagon, making similar, and hopefully better products!no cost. HARDLY a failure.

I’M NOT criticizing the “form factor”, Mike—actually, I LOVE IT!!! I own a Tivoli Model One [birch with a heather-green front] and a Sangean grand-piano-black-lacquered WR-2... Both are EXCEPTIONAL! I have to recall the 1973 Pioneer TX-9100 to find similar FM reception finesse; and BOTH offer EXCEPTIONAL AM audio quality. The latter offers THE BEST AM AUDIO I have heard in a “digitally-tuned” model... Both have excellent FM capability, and the ANALOG-TUNED Tivoli [while in dire need of a good external antenna] comes dangerously-close to “FM quality” on a well-transmitted AM station. My boss obviously-loves this “form-factor” also—since he has yet to part ways with our “evaluation copy” of the $500+ “George” from the latest group of audiophiles in Boston [Chestnut Hill] to enter the fray. Boss-man likes a suburban oldies station [ON AM] and exclaims: “It’s pleasing in audio quality.” Of course, the ultimate road test” awaits Uncle Hippo here—paid to near-flawlessly hone-out the winners from the losers—and DO I ever enjoy that!

It appears that some of the VERY-BEST radios manufactured today appear in this “form-factor”! But, alas—these ARE $120-140 RADIOS... Add another one-hundred bucks for HD and you get two poor speakers, a diminished power amp, and reception that is downright-RETARDED! Does it require Stereo Review’s Julian Hirsh [retired] to figure-out WHY these “radios” AREN’T selling?

Oh... My new C Crane catalog arrived! Still the Tivoli Model One and Sangean WR-2 grace its pages; but NO Sony mono table radio [earlier carried]; NO Boston Acoustics HD Recptor [it’s discontinued] – NO Sony table-model HD radio – in-fact [even] NO Sangean HDR-1 HD table radio. They only carry the HDT-1 and 1X upgrade with a warning that HD reception occurs within only 25-miles of the transmitter! GREAT TECHNOLOGY :

 

[Radioman100]

It appears that some of the VERY-BEST radios manufactured today appear in this “form-factor”! But, alas—these ARE $120-140 RADIOS... Add another one-hundred bucks for HD and you get two poor speakers, a diminished power amp, and reception that is downright-RETARDED! Does it require Stereo Review’s Julian Hirsh [retired] to figure-out WHY these “radios” AREN’T selling?

Both the Receptor HD and the Sony have incredible sound quality that absolutely SPANKS the Tivoli. "Diminished power amp?" That's an embarassingly inaccurate statement! How do I know? One of my co-workers owns the Tivoli Model One. I just snuck into his office and cranked it up. Not horrible for a radio with such a tiny speaker, but certainly not in the same league as the Receptor HD or Sony. When you crank those radios, you'll actually feel the ported speakers moving some air. With the Tivoli, not so much. And oh yeah, Julian Hirsch isn't "retired" he's dead.

Oh... My new C Crane catalog arrived! Still the Tivoli Model One and Sangean WR-2 grace its pages; but NO Sony mono table radio [earlier carried]; NO Boston Acoustics HD Recptor [it’s discontinued] – NO Sony table-model HD radio – in-fact [even] NO Sangean HDR-1 HD table radio. They only carry the HDT-1 and 1X upgrade with a warning that HD reception occurs within only 25-miles of the transmitter! GREAT TECHNOLOGY :

Bob Crane is an AM radio fan. That's his often stated reason for starting C. Crane. He has also been somewhat outspoken against HD on AM. Does it really surprise you that he doesn't carry many HD radios, and labels the ones he does carry with a completely false statement? As I write this, I'm listening to a station over 70 miles away in HD on a BA Receptor with a simple wire antenna! Now, I do have some height as I'm several stories up, but I'm also in a big steel framed office building, and my window faces AWAY from the station! Someone had better tell my little radio IT CAN'T DO THIS! Bob Crane says it can't!

 

[Mike Walker]

They can "warn" anything they want. Wilkes County NC is 100 miles from Black Mountain NC, as well as Greenville/Spartanburg/Asheville. THAT is how far HD goes. C Crane also says they don't have any HD stations near their site (funny how you failed to mention that), so they're being VERY conservative with claims. I got 70-80 mile reception with an INDOOR antenna.

Still, I love my Tivoli PAL. Tivoli makes great radios, but I have no interest in a mono radio. The PAL is VERY clean in stereo off the headphone jack. Mine needs a new battery...doesn't hold a charge. It does remind me of the great Pioneer tuners from the 70s, now that you mention it.

Ported speakers "move air" because they completely unload below the resonant point. But if the output from cone and port are 180 degrees out of phase, they're actually producing no SOUND (below resonance). It's one of the weaknesses of tuned port speakers. And that's not criticism, just a fact (my speakers are tuned-port...Energy C3s). A properly tuned port can offer impressive bass extension in a small cabinet, but the cone "unloads" below resonance, and flaps around, producing no sound, but lots of distortion (if overdriven). This ain't a "plus".

 

[kevtronics]

I took the plunge and bought one of these Insignia HD Radio shelf systems today.

Pros:
* Seems well constructed, good appearance and finish.
* Speakers sound good for their size.
* Includes coaxial input for FM antenna.
* It DOES decode C-Quam AM Stereo, despite the user manual's claim that stereo on AM is only available on HD stations!
* It does have a Stereo indicator for AM Stereo and FM Stereo, although it's a tiny "curly-cue" indicator which doesn't make much sense (what happened to plain ol' "ST"?).

Cons:
* You need to use the remote control for almost all functions... and its response is PAINFULLY slow! You push a button, and there's no response for a second or two... THEN it does what you asked it to. Tuning in a station is FRUSTRATINGLY slow. When switching from AM to FM or vice versa, I count three seconds of no response after pushing the button, before it switches bands!
* Buttons on the remote are tiny and poorly labelled. Many have the label BELOW the button, completely opposite of the industry standard, leading to many wrong buttons pushed!
* No headphone jack, and the audio output jacks only work when using the CD/DVD player, making the radio USELESS for personal listening or recording airchecks!
* Reception with the included antennas is poor on FM and medicore on AM.
* HD Radio reception is intermittent or not available at all unless you're within the "city-grade contour" of a signal.
* Mono/Stereo button only works on FM. There is no way to force the AM tuner to Mono when listening to a C-Quam AM Stereo station.
* Analog AM audio response is sharply filtered at 4.6 kHz, and sounds shrill (it's probably not following the NRSC de-emphasis curve up to that point).
* The CD/DVD looks exactly like a slot-loading unit, and you can stick a CD into it, but it's actually a slide-out drawer. I got a CD inserted almost all the way in before I realized the mistake.

Needless to say, I'm returning it. It LOOKS like a good little shelf system, but it's just so frustrating to use through that HORRIBLE remote with the reaction time of a 95-year-old person, and the lack of a headphone jack or usable line output is a real killer for me.

 

[Mike Walker]

Have you tried it with a decent antenna, Kevin? Preferably an outdoor one? "City contour" coverage can suddenly become WAY the hell out there coverage.

 

[kevtronics]

Have you tried it with a decent antenna, Kevin? Preferably an outdoor one? "City contour" coverage can suddenly become WAY the hell out there coverage.

The radio's user interface was so frustrating that I didn't want to waste my time fiddling around with better antennas. Having a three-second delay between pushing a button and having a response from the radio is simply unacceptable to me. And it had trouble decoding HD from 99.1 WAWZ, a super-local signal that usually pegs the signal strength meter on most radios even with no antenna attached. It displayed the PAD scroll (HD Radio's equivalent of RDS) but most of the time it didn't actually decode the digital audio.

On AM, it did decode digital audio from 710 WOR, but it was flakey at best. I had to hold the included loop antenna in my hand in a certain position or else it wouldn't decode the digital audio. But yet I could just let the antenna sit and it was giving me C-Quam AM Stereo from 1450 WCTC, a much weaker signal! However, getting it to tune from 710 up to 1450 was a real chore. Every button push felt like the radio had to take my request to a meeting and have its committee approve the action before it would respond.

I tried the Sony tabletop HD Radio in the store and it seemed to have better reception and a MUCH better user interface, with instant response to the buttons and dials -- plus the Sony has RDS, which I'm not sure the Insignia has (it didn't show any RDS scrolls from the FM signals which are transmitting it). However, $179 is a lot for just a radio. If it came down to around $99 I would definitely consider it.

Alas, the Insignia is proof that if you add HD Radio (or even AM Stereo) to a junky radio, it's still a piece of junk.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

I played with the Sony at my BB, and they looked at me like some sore of an alien when I unraveled the wires for the FM dipole, and gave me the 'alien' look as I held the AM loop up and moved it around trying to get an HD lock. Anyhow,
Two very local AM-HD stations would not even get the PAD info.
Two of 8 local FM's would work in HD and HD-2 after playing around with the antenna. I don't know if your average Joe would put forth that much effort. Radio did have a decent sound though on FM; AM sucked.