Bye bye Indie. It was nice knowing you.

[davideduardo]

Look, EVC got their delisting notice from the NYSE, and they were operating outside the terms of their debt covenant.

Hundreds of companies either lost share price and were endangered for exchange listing or were in default on debt covenants.

Millions of people lost equity in their homes and were in default on their loans.

You make out "Entravision" as the guilty party in the loss of what you seem to think was a great radio station. The problem was a combination of "the Economy" as well as the changes in FCC's market cap rules that affected the very advantageous JSA.

They sold off their outdoor company, which was the only form of radio station promotion, since they were unwilling to pay for any. Then they still needed to refinance their loans, and the banks told them they had to drop Indie, stop contributing to the employee 401k plan, slash their contributions to the employee insurance plans, and cut another 100 people across the country.

In this recession, companies avoid default, insolvency and bankrutcy by eliminating all manner of expenses. As a rule, banks don't tell companies how to specifically reduce expenses; they may insist on compliance with loan terms, though. And if Indie did not produce money, and there was an alternative that would, it would make sense to change.

Obviously, there is more to your dislike of Entravision than a format lost.

 

[davideduardo]

Indie was profitable for 5 years. That's a pretty good run in todays business.

It only got those 5 years due to the JSA. Otherwise, it would not have lasted more than a year or two.

 

[RBB05]

Indie's ratings, as Indie, never really went down. You have said so yourself. They always sucked.

The share decresed from around the one-share range in the diary book to low single digits in the 11 PPM books before the format was killed off.

Look at the people that Indie had in studio for interviews. Look at the people they had as guest hosts. Those were the most hardcore fans of Indie, for better or for worse. Do you really think the Hollywood types and industry types are going to care about a stupid PPM pager?

That kind of people are so few, whether they are represented in the sample or not is irrelevant.

That doesn't make what Indie did correct. It means that in order fr Indie to survive, EVC had to have a conceptual understanding of how to make it work, and vision is one thing EVC sorely lacks.

In a transactional market, a station without a good signal and with PPM numbers in around a 0.3 was not going to make it with any amount of creativity, innovation or genius.

Due respect to the genius that is with the numbers and signal expertise, and transmitter knowledge, etc. we both know that the sampling size is so small that even 10 more people with ppm pagers, regardless of their demographics, could have made a difference. And the station could have survived with some creativity. Otherwise there would on;y be 15 stations in the market....but yet we find many at places #30 and lower. It take some intestinal fortitude, which Ulloa historically lacks.

 

[davideduardo]

Due respect to the genius that is with the numbers and signal expertise, and transmitter knowledge, etc. we both know that the sampling size is so small that even 10 more people with ppm pagers, regardless of their demographics, could have made a difference. And the station could have survived with some creativity. Otherwise there would on;y be 15 stations in the market....but yet we find many at places #30 and lower. It take some intestinal fortitude, which Ulloa historically lacks.

It's quite obvious that in the PPM, stations with limited signals fare poorly vis a vis the diary survey. This is, obviously, in part due to the fact that small signals can not generate the cume larger ones do and when coupled with the flattened TSL of the PPM they do badly.

We would all wish that the PPM had a larger sample. What we have is what radio can afford; as it is, the cost is 60% higher than the diary survey. Arbitron will gladly increase sample if someone pays for it... as they have always done.

For the moment, what is obvious at whatever the share level was for Indie is that the perceived TSL was vastly above the real TSL. People who did listen considerably rounded their listening, and that favored the TSL more than most stations.

The stations at 30th or so are not real commercial contenders... take a look at any ranking on 18-49 or 25-54 and you will see that the bottom tier is made up of niche offerings, impaired signals, AMs and such. Even the lowest of the Class B FMs is nowhere near that rank level.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

>>we both know that the sampling size is so small that even 10 more people with ppm pagers, regardless of their demographics, could have made a difference. <<

Except those people simply were not there. Every one thinks that their station is under-counted: "How could it not be higher? I listen, all my friends listen, I hear it on the street when I'm with my friends in the car, yada yada...".


Here's the deal. Arbitron uses sampling that is statistically significant at a high confidence level. The data is so reliable, nearly every station is willing to pay for it. To put it simply, it is possible that the sample could be off... but not really. Especially over repeated sampling periods. Indie was a niche station, programmed to a niche audience, and had the niche ratings to prove it, pure and simple.

How many years has it been, and we are still going over all of this? For the last time, Arbitron wasn't 10 sampled meters short, Indie was thousands of listeners short. Considering the level of listenership it had, Indie had a great run - but nothing in life is permanent (except idiots in high government).

 

[Buckethead]

"
It only got those 5 years due to the JSA. Otherwise, it would not have lasted more than a year or two. "

David, the JSA was 2 years, and it actually was ended early. Entravision chose to continue for another 3 years.

And Channel Flipper, I would say when Arbitron reported that Indie had ZERO listeners in the zip codes between Beverly Hills and Downtown
one might think that was not an accurate measure of actual listening patterns since that was a core area for Indie listenership.

 

[davideduardo]

David, the JSA was 2 years, and it actually was ended early. Entravision chose to continue for another 3 years.

There were two JSA's... first with Clear and then with KDAY, right? The Clear JSA was ended due to changes in FCC policy regarding cluster caps and attribution. At that point, it could not be renewed.

And Channel Flipper, I would say when Arbitron reported that Indie had ZERO listeners in the zip codes between Beverly Hills and Downtown

The 103.1 signal has some rather bad shadowing on the East side of the Baldwin Hills. It gets a better signal towards the South Central area as there is no terrain blockage there, thus the relatively good performance of the current format.

Remember that ZIPs in the diary can be the at work or at home ZIPs. Not having at work listening to the east of the hills is unsurprising, and much at-home listening in that area is challenged by the shadowing (the edge of the hills obstructs a clear path from antenna to populations).

one might think that was not an accurate measure of actual listening patterns since that was a core area for Indie listenership.

If it got no ratings in that area, how can you say it was a core area. Obviously, it was not. Did KROQ get numbers in that area? Of course they did, proving interest in the general format area, but inability to hear Indie or the realization that it played in an area off most peoples' radar.

 

[RBB05]

David, the JSA was 2 years, and it actually was ended early. Entravision chose to continue for another 3 years.

There were two JSA's... first with Clear and then with KDAY, right? The Clear JSA was ended due to changes in FCC policy regarding cluster caps and attribution. At that point, it could not be renewed.

And Channel Flipper, I would say when Arbitron reported that Indie had ZERO listeners in the zip codes between Beverly Hills and Downtown

The 103.1 signal has some rather bad shadowing on the East side of the Baldwin Hills. It gets a better signal towards the South Central area as there is no terrain blockage there, thus the relatively good performance of the current format.

Remember that ZIPs in the diary can be the at work or at home ZIPs. Not having at work listening to the east of the hills is unsurprising, and much at-home listening in that area is challenged by the shadowing (the edge of the hills obstructs a clear path from antenna to populations).

one might think that was not an accurate measure of actual listening patterns since that was a core area for Indie listenership.

If it got no ratings in that area, how can you say it was a core area. Obviously, it was not. Did KROQ get numbers in that area? Of course they did, proving interest in the general format area, but inability to hear Indie or the realization that it played in an area off most peoples' radar.

I don't mean to joust at your authoritative stance, but you are incorrect. The KDAY arrangement was not an official JSA. It came about as the station manager for Indie and Roy were long time friends and they agreed to make pitches together. There is not a single document reflecting a JSA. The actual JSA was 2 years. The last three was Indie trying to make it.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't mean to joust at your authoritative stance, but you are incorrect. The KDAY arrangement was not an official JSA. It came about as the station manager for Indie and Roy were long time friends and they agreed to make pitches together. There is not a single document reflecting a JSA. The actual JSA was 2 years. The last three was Indie trying to make it.

Legally, what you describe is a JSA. It may have been informal, but it allowed the station to ride with another station for sales. If you sell together, you are in a JSA. Imagine what would happen if Clear Channel LA and CBS LA salespeople went on joint pitches...

P.S. Please note that I asked (the question mark being a dead giveaway here) if there weren't two JSAs. I asked that because it was previously posted by Buckethead that there was a 2 year JSA that was renewed for 3 more years, which is not correct.

 

[Buckethead]

I did not say the JSA was renewed. After less than 2 years the JSA ended and Entravision chose to continue the format for 3 more years.

 

[Dick Skinner]

Will someone please put this decomposing equine carcass out of its misery?

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

Will someone please put this decomposing equine carcass out of its misery?

Entravision already did....

 

[Buckethead]

Yes can we please get back to trying remember call letter changes and format changes that happened in the 1960's.

 

[RBB05]

I did not say the JSA was renewed. After less than 2 years the JSA ended and Entravision chose to continue the format for 3 more years.

That is correct and they went on their own....The KDAY agreement was something that happened informally over the last 9 months of Indie....there was not a 3 year JSA with KDAY.

 

[RBB05]

Yes can we please get back to trying remember call letter changes and format changes that happened in the 1960's.

and debating listening strengths based on contour patterns on maps.

 

[musicfan101]

Yes can we please get back to trying remember call letter changes and format changes that happened in the 1960's.

That is one of the funniest posts I've ever seen on here!

 

[davideduardo]

That is correct and they went on their own....The KDAY agreement was something that happened informally over the last 9 months of Indie....there was not a 3 year JSA with KDAY.

I see, there was no JSA with KDAY, but there was one.

 

[radiojomo]

There's a good chance that if Indie had truly been independently owned, they would have had a longer lifespan. At some independent stations such as WFNX in Boston, their prime motive is to keep the lights on, and as far as I know, Indie was still keeping the lights on, just not making huge profit margins that a corporate radio entity wants.

 

[TheBigA]

You want a place that just keeps the lights on, go over to Pacifica.

 

[RBB05]

There's a good chance that if Indie had truly been independently owned, they would have had a longer lifespan. At some independent stations such as WFNX in Boston, their prime motive is to keep the lights on, and as far as I know, Indie was still keeping the lights on, just not making huge profit margins that a corporate radio entity wants.

Gato is not making a huge profit margin either...just better than Indie's, mostly based on the fact that it costs next to nothing to run.