CBS-FM: "New York's Home For The Holidays"

[scooty430]

As for the A to Z, it did not run the whole month. If the "whole month was bad," (which is quite an exaggeration) you could hardly "blame" the A to Z. And again, who is to say whether ratings would have been even lower without it? I don't know if you've ever been to NYC in the summer, but the place is a ghost town. Nothing but tourists - the locals have fled.

What part of "it does not matter" don't you get? Share is the percent of people who are listening. So even if half of the metro's nearly 17 million 12-pluses are out on vacation (a real exaggeration) there are still 100 shares. In fact, even if 95% of New Yorkers are out of the metro, there are still 100 shares. And meters that are not docked and not in motion are not tabulated.

Unless you have proof that CBS FM listeners vacation more than, let's say, Lite FM's listeners, your whole vacation point is irrelevant as well as silly.

Perhaps the typical CBSFM listener, is, could it be, an OFFICE WORKER? A person with a FAMILY? Someone who would probably be out of town that week? More so than other stations, thus lowering the share in relation to the others? Absolutely.

So only CBS FM listeners have families or work in offices?

You no listening. You. No. Listening.

We understand how shares work, but thanks for the lesson.

CBSFM has a fairly old listenership, and demographically, they ARE more likely to be people with jobs, but jobs that provide vacations. Other stations would not have that demo.

 

[scooty430]

What were the exact start and stop dates of the A to Z thing?

It ran for pretty much one week. It started at 9AM on Monday, June 30 and ended somewhere in the 3PM hour on Monday, July 7. Hope that helps!

OK, here are the ranks. For 12+ during the 8 day run, #2 and 7th in 25-54.

In the prior 8 day period, in 12+ #3 and in 25-54, 8th. While the share differnces are very tiny, they DID go up slightly during the A to Z thing, although the increase in 25-54 was practically nothing and the change in rank has more to do with motion at other stations.

Oh waiter, one crow please.

Wow. That is a first. (The crow part, I mean.)

But more importantly, WE WERE RIGHT! MORE VARIETY WINS!

There is hope for mankind. 8)

 

[davideduardo]

But more importantly, WE WERE RIGHT! MORE VARIETY WINS!

No, it does not. There was barely any movement in 25-54... the gains were all 55+, which is totally without value.

As a programmer, a feature that only proves to appeal to 55+ is not worth doing again unles signficantly modified. It sends a message to the under-55's that will likely result in all the curiosity value being gone on the next iteration of the feature unless there is significant enhancement to add sub-geezer appeal.

 

[scooty430]

But more importantly, WE WERE RIGHT! MORE VARIETY WINS! 8)

No, it does not. There was barely any movement in 25-54... the gains were all 55+, which is totally without value.

As a programmer, a feature that only proves to appeal to 55+ is not worth doing again unles signficantly modified. It sends a message to the under-55's that will likely result in all the curiosity value being gone on the next iteration of the feature unless there is significant enhancement to add sub-geezer appeal.

Wrong.

More variety wins, because it's on the air. Again!

...and listeners are being asked to "vote" online for what songs should be added to the regular playlist. "We are going to add hundreds and hundreds of songs to our playlist, and unlike the real election, you can vote as many times as you want on WCBS. So if you hear a song you like on this countdown, go vote for it on our website."

Personally, I'm going to vote for "Beep Beep, Beep Beep, His Horn Went Beep Beep Beep" because it is an old geezer song I haven't heard since I listened to Dr. Demento, and my God, it is on the air right now.

 

[oldies76]

David, why would WCBS air it twice?? There is a valid reason for this and it's the variety factor that Scooty mentions..Simply said...a station MUST have variety in order to attract new listeners, keep the existing ones and appeal to the demos it's attracting.

If a 68 year old is tuning in and hears a 50's song played, during this A to Z, then they'll most likely stay tuned.

Result: New listeners added, existing ones satisfied, ratings go up, even if slightly, like in July.

And this Stiff thing really is irrelevant in a specialty..they are expected in a specialty!! Why did the ratings go up in July, if a "Stiffathon" was aired??

 

[davideduardo]

If a 68 year old is tuning in and hears a 50's song played, during this A to Z, then they'll most likely stay tuned.

No station in any rated market has any interest in attracting 68 year olds. They have absolutely zero sales value.

And this Stiff thing really is irrelevant in a specialty..they are expected in a specialty!! Why did the ratings go up in July, if a "Stiffathon" was aired??

A stiff is a song that most people hate. They cause listeners to go away, as they are negave.

The 25-54 ratings did not significantly move. Only the 55+ moved up significantly. And 55+ listeners are of no sales value or use.

 

[oldies76]

No station in any rated market has any interest in attracting 68 year olds. They have absolutely zero sales value.

The 25-54 ratings did not significantly move. Only the 55+ moved up significantly. And 55+ listeners are of no sales value or use.

Right.....but if the 55+ moved up significantly, then CBS's A to Z did attract them. How else would this demo rating have increased? WCBS may not have any official interest in attracting them, but they did afterall and increased the overall ratings for that specialty period in July and probably this time around too.

Why is CBS-FM airing a second A to Z? To repeat what they did in July or do even better and to attract these 55+ audiences, even though that may not be their main goal...it's extra points for them. Why not, right??

 

[oldies76]

A stiff is a song that most people hate. They cause listeners to go away, as they are negave.

The 25-54 ratings did not significantly move. Only the 55+ moved up significantly. And 55+ listeners are of no sales value or use.

Ok then..if people supposedly hate these songs and CBS-FM is airing them as a specialty A to Z twice in 5 months, for 8 solid days, then why are the ratings higher, especially in the 55+? If people really hate these songs, then why didn't the ratings bomb?

This proves that listeners enjoy changes, like variety and specialties.

If CBS-FM played Honey, Afternoon Delight, Ballad of the Green Berets and Ma Belle Amie...etc..over and over like the regularly played songs, then we'd have an issue with ratings. They don't, so the "stiff" thing in specialties is irrelevant, since they are infrequent songs to begin with.

 

[davideduardo]

Ok then..if people supposedly hate these songs and CBS-FM is airing them as a specialty A to Z twice in 5 months, for 8 solid days, then why are the ratings higher, especially in the 55+? If people really hate these songs, then why didn't the ratings bomb?

People UNDER 55 don't generally like those songs. And for advertising sales, the force that makes or breaks any commercial station, there is essentially no demand for over-55 listeners.

The under-55 did not benefit from the A to Z. Perhaps CBS believes the Christmas songs mixed in, or a tweek to the overall mix and average age of the songs is being done.

This proves that listeners enjoy changes, like variety and specialties.

It proves none of that, as the under-55, the only group of interest to advertisers, there is no conclusion that can be made about any of what you mention.

If They don't, so the "stiff" thing in specialties is irrelevant, since they are infrequent songs to begin with.

Any song that is more negative than positive drives listeners away.

 

[oldies76]

People UNDER 55 don't generally like those songs. And for advertising sales, the force that makes or breaks any commercial station, there is essentially no demand for over-55 listeners.

The under-55 did not benefit from the A to Z. Perhaps CBS believes the Christmas songs mixed in, or a tweek to the overall mix and average age of the songs is being done.

Any song that is more negative than positive drives listeners away.

I'm still looking for the answer to the original question: If an A to Z is loaded with stiffs, why didn't the ratings go down for that time period...instead as you stated, it either stayed roughly the same (35-54) or increased for 55+.

If your saying that stiffs drive listeners away, then why was A to Z successful in the ratings in July?

By your explanation, because of these "hated" songs, ratings should have tanked in July..but they didn't.

 

[davideduardo]

[
I'm still looking for the answer to the original question: If an A to Z is loaded with stiffs, why didn't the ratings go down for that time period...instead as you stated, it either stayed roughly the same (35-54) or increased for 55+.

I did not give 35-54. I gave the broad sales demo, 25-54. And in that age range the differences between the days of the A to Z thing and prior weeks or 8-day sets is insignificant. In other words, there was no buzz in 25-54.

If your saying that stiffs drive listeners away, then why was A to Z successful in the ratings in July?

First, the A to Z feature was not successful in 25-54. I keep trying to explain that there is a universal truth: 55+ is not salable and, thus, does not matter at all. Since commercial stations have to sell ads to keep in business, one has to look at whether any particular demo can be monetized unless life takes place in a Disneyesque fantasy world.

The 25-54's may have "put up" with one round of A to Z, but two in such a short period runs the risk of annoying the 25-54's. For example, I may put up with one play every 5 or 10 years of "Ballad of the Green Berets" but a second play is too much. Same with the mostly unknown or limited appeal pre-65 songs. While there might have been both a curiosity value and a bit of "oh, wow" in the first round, a lot of the dreadful songs are tune-outs if overexposed.

By your explanation, because of these "hated" songs, ratings should have tanked in July..but they didn't.

No gain. Second try is a risk, IMHO.

 

[scooty430]

A stiff is a song that most people hate. They cause listeners to go away, as they are negave.

The 25-54 ratings did not significantly move. Only the 55+ moved up significantly. And 55+ listeners are of no sales value or use.

Ok then..if people supposedly hate these songs and CBS-FM is airing them as a specialty A to Z twice in 5 months, for 8 solid days, then why are the ratings higher, especially in the 55+? If people really hate these songs, then why didn't the ratings bomb?

This proves that listeners enjoy changes, like variety and specialties.

If CBS-FM played Honey, Afternoon Delight, Ballad of the Green Berets and Ma Belle Amie...etc..over and over like the regularly played songs, then we'd have an issue with ratings. They don't, so the "stiff" thing in specialties is irrelevant, since they are infrequent songs to begin with.

Just for the record, I had the CBS countdown on quietly in the background during a meeting today at work. When Da Doo Ron Ron came on, one of the people at the meeting, a woman in her early 20s, perked up and began bouncing around and mouthing the words.

Anecdotal, but again and again, we see that the older music is timeless and appeals to many age groups.

 

[oldies76]

Scooty430,

It's just D.E. has it only in the business side of things, not in the listeners perspective, which is what, in the grand scheme of things, what makes or breaks a station..

If the listeners go away..then ratings tank
If the listeners stay..ratings are neutral or rise

Obviously these A to Z's and other "stiffathons" as D.E. puts it, has not killed the ratings in 25-54 or 55+.
People like hearing more obscure songs, they like changes, they like variety, the youth sing to them.

David says they are stiffs, hated songs..people would turn the dial, go away...right? This has not happened and it won't, the ratings prove it, as I have said about 100 times now and on other threads.

It really pointless continuing to try to drive this reality to David....almost like brickwall.

 

[scooty430]

This has been discussed over and over, but here's the gist for DE:

1) If you play the same 200 songs, or even 500 songs, for a decade straight, it gets boring, even for the casual listener.
2) Every "stiff" is somebody's favorite song, somewhere. The person who hears their own "long lost favorite" will sit through a bunch of stiffs because they know they'll be thrilled again sooner or later.
3) The "keep the playlist small" mantra works for stations with new and constantly evolving playlists, not oldies stations.
4) Playing more decades (50s through 80s) gives you more good songs to use. Older songs are not the big turn-offs you think they are, even (perhaps especially) for young people. To young people, old songs are actually new songs!

 

[oldies76]

This has been discussed over and over, but here's the gist for DE:

1) If you play the same 200 songs, or even 500 songs, for a decade straight, it gets boring, even for the casual listener.
2) Every "stiff" is somebody's favorite song, somewhere. The person who hears their own "long lost favorite" will sit through a bunch of stiffs because they know they'll be thrilled again sooner or later.
3) The "keep the playlist small" mantra works for stations with new and constantly evolving playlists, not oldies stations.
4) Playing more decades (50s through 80s) gives you more good songs to use. Older songs are not the big turn-offs you think they are, even (perhaps especially) for young people. To young people, old songs are actually new songs!

You couldn't have said this better!!

 

[davideduardo]

This has been discussed over and over, but here's the gist for DE:

1) If you play the same 200 songs, or even 500 songs, for a decade straight, it gets boring, even for the casual listener.

No, it does not. Let's take true top 40, which reigned from about 1953 through the late 60's. In most cases, 40 songs. Over and over. But each week a few songs died, and a few were added. It worked.

Now take soft AC or oldies. Each year, the oldest songs die. Newer ones are added to keep the demo the same, althoug older listeners will leave as new ones enter the bottom end demos. Since we now know that the average listener listens to their favorite station an average of perhaps 25 minutes a day, those 500 songs will last about two months without being heard again by the same listener. And since songs cycle in and out of acceptability, there are likely more songs in play, just not at the same time.

2) Every "stiff" is somebody's favorite song, somewhere. The person who hears their own "long lost favorite" will sit through a bunch of stiffs because they know they'll be thrilled again sooner or later.

Actually, looking at PPM minute by minute, we know there is notthing worse than a bad song. Listeners leave. So songs with lots of negs on them can't be played, or the TSL drops.

3) The "keep the playlist small" mantra works for stations with new and constantly evolving playlists, not oldies stations.

It's not about making the list small. it is about not playing bad songs. If 600 songs test very well, play them. But play the really big ones at the top more, because 95% of listeners come to hear favorite songs, not just good songs.

4) Playing more decades (50s through 80s) gives you more good songs to use.

It means nobody will be passionate about the station and you will be a low TSL P2 station.

Older songs are not the big turn-offs you think they are, even (perhaps especially) for young people. To young people, old songs are actually new songs!

No, they are just bad songs.

 

[mjb1124]

Wow, I love how people are treating it as fact that certain songs are "bad".

And for the record, I'm in my early twenties and happen to be enjoying a lot of these so-called "stiffs". I also perked up when "Da Doo Ron Ron" came on, and I can easily "relate" to Fats Domino. Even novelty songs like "Beep Beep" are a heck of a lot more exciting to me than all those Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Eagles, and Hall & Oates songs that apparently test so well.

 

[scooty430]

DE, PPM is actually showing that WCBS had an increase with their A to Z, thus disproving a few of your theories.

(Not that PPM is necessarily accurate. The sample size is too small, perhaps not representative of the population, and people don't wear the PPMs all day like they should.....yet Arbitron uses their data.)

Increased variety, playing 50s through 80s, and playing what you call "stiffs," resulted in higher ratings.

Ooops. I think you need to eat a little more crow there, buddy.

 

[oldies76]

Increased variety, playing 50s through 80s, and playing what you call "stiffs," resulted in higher ratings.

D.E. Why not think from a LISTENERS point of view....the ratings prove it...you cannot dispute actuality. That's why stations DO specialties..to attract new listeners and keep the existing ones = stable or higher ratings..not lower.

 

[davideduardo]

DE, PPM is actually showing that WCBS had an increase with their A to Z, thus disproving a few of your theories.

The increase was in 55+, which is of no commercial value to any station in a transactional (ratings and agency driven) market like NYC.

(Not that PPM is necessarily accurate. The sample size is too small, perhaps not representative of the population, and people don't wear the PPMs all day like they should.....yet Arbitron uses their data.)

The issue is not sample size... it is proportionality. Is every subset equally represented? If the answer is "yes" then the sample size is more than adequate. PPM has a greater "real" sample for each day and week and even month than the diary did. Beyond that, the limit is cost; as it is the PPM increased costs to subscribing stations (stations, not advertisers, pay the bill) by nearly two-thirds.

And each PPM has a motion detector. If the meter is not undocked and carried with a pattern that indicates a minimum carriage time each day, that day is not in the sample for that meter. If there is consistent non-compliance, the household is changed for a new one.

Increased variety, playing 50s through 80s, and playing what you call "stiffs," resulted in higher ratings.

Yes, among a group that is not useful to the station. In salable demos, the changes between each week are always a few tenths of a share up or down, and seldom totally the same... so there was no demonstrable growth in 25.54. And if the sales demo did not move appreciably, there is no reason to do something that, if repeated, will wear thin and turn rapidly negative.

Ooops. I think you need to eat a little more crow there, buddy.

No, I think you need to go to the Arbitron site and read up on ratings. And you need to understand that each station competes for revenue in a limite range of years, mostly between 18 and 54 (although 18-49 is the growth range). That's why oldies stations changed to the classic hits concept... to zero in on the core years for people under 55.