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CBS-FM: "New York's Home For The Holidays"

DavidEduardo said:
Yes, among a group that is not useful to the station. In salable demos, the changes between each week are always a few tenths of a share up or down, and seldom totally the same... so there was no demonstrable growth in 25.54. And if the sales demo did not move appreciably, there is no reason to do something that, if repeated, will wear thin and turn rapidly negative.

Statistically speaking..ok, BUT the "stiffs" did not lower the ratings either..They did not "drive the listeners away".
Obviously, the first time around in July (which by the way was a holiday week) did not hurt them.

Now, this time (in November) when many are at work or commuting in their cars (or subways), the A to Z is running again.

Is it risky, since more "regular" listeners are exposed to it? probably not. I really think that people welcome a change from the ordinary.

You ask any radio listener on the street and ask them "Do you like your station the way it is...repetitious and boring" or "Do you like it the way it is with occasional features to spruce things up, like A to Z" and see what they tell you.

You'll be surprised at the results!!
 
It's amazing how DE twists his stats to support his argument. (His argument always being in favor of boredom, mediocrity, and lack of creativity....)

The A to Z was a "failure" because the ratings......stayed the same. Wow, what a disaster. ::)
 
oldies76 said:
Statistically speaking..ok, BUT the "stiffs" did not lower the ratings either..They did not "drive the listeners away".

The daily cume in 25-54 in the week of the A to Z was discernably lower than the week before... so they did lose listeners.

Obviously, the first time around in July (which by the way was a holiday week) did not hurt them

We have been through this before. Share has no relationship at all with people who are in or out of the market. It's a percentage of the people there who listen to radio. And if a meter is not in motion for a day or a week, it is not tabulated and the remaining meters are tabulated and projected into the population base, called the universe.

Is it risky, since more "regular" listeners are exposed to it? probably not. I really think that people welcome a change from the ordinary.

There are no more or less listeners in an averge of a couple of random weeks of October than the week of the first A to Z. All the figures wobble a little overall and per station from day to day and week to week. Your idea that a significant percentage of the population was out of the market is wrong.

You ask any radio listener on the street and ask them "Do you like your station the way it is...repetitious and boring" or "Do you like it the way it is with occasional features to spruce things up, like A to Z" and see what they tell you.

You'll be surprised at the results!!

I would not be surprised. I would be astounded if those two highly biased questions did not yield the obvious answer. But if I play a pod of the hooks of 20 or 30 songs from A to Z in the order they played and a pod from regular programming, the regular programming pod will win by a very large margin.
 
And once again, considering that it was a holiday weekend, could the drop, in part, be due to many of CBS-FM's listeners being *away* that weekend? Especially considering that CBS-FM's target audience is probably more likely to be able to go for a weekend or a week away than, say, Z100's target audience, who probably would remain in the listening area. Everything isn't always so black and white (unless you want it to be)!
 
neo11 said:
And once again, considering that it was a holiday weekend, could the drop, in part, be due to many of CBS-FM's listeners being *away* that weekend? Especially considering that CBS-FM's target audience is probably more likely to be able to go for a weekend or a week away than, say, Z100's target audience, who probably would remain in the listening area. Everything isn't always so black and white (unless you want it to be)!

The socioeconomic data you pulled out of your hat is not supported by reality. In additon, the Z 100 and CBS demos barely overlap, so the comparison in-demo in the same demo (which any univese comparison must be) does not work. Apples and oranges... or, really, apples and sheetrock.

In any case, meters that are not docked to charge and in motion the next day are not tabulated...t he remaining meters are projected into the same usinverse, so there should be little or no effect of travel.
 
DavidEduardo said:
neo11 said:
And once again, considering that it was a holiday weekend, could the drop, in part, be due to many of CBS-FM's listeners being *away* that weekend? Especially considering that CBS-FM's target audience is probably more likely to be able to go for a weekend or a week away than, say, Z100's target audience, who probably would remain in the listening area. Everything isn't always so black and white (unless you want it to be)!

The socioeconomic data you pulled out of your hat is not supported by reality. In additon, the Z 100 and CBS demos barely overlap, so the comparison in-demo in the same demo (which any univese comparison must be) does not work. Apples and oranges... or, really, apples and sheetrock.

In any case, meters that are not docked to charge and in motion the next day are not tabulated...t he remaining meters are projected into the same usinverse, so there should be little or no effect of travel.

Exactly! Apples and oranges. My whole point is that listeners to a station like Z100 are far different, demographically, than listeners to a station like CBS-FM, and CBS-FM's core audience is likely older and more affluent and more likely to be away during a holiday weekend than, say, Z100's audience. As a result, CBS-FM's shares decline...that week, as its listeners might be outside of the listening area, have their PPM's docked at home, etc.

Apples and oranges (or sheetrock, if you prefer) is the whole point!
 
neo11 said:
Exactly! Apples and oranges. My whole point is that listeners to a station like Z100 are far different, demographically, than listeners to a station like CBS-FM, and CBS-FM's core audience is likely older and more affluent and more likely to be away during a holiday weekend than, say, Z100's audience. As a result, CBS-FM's shares decline...that week, as its listeners might be outside of the listening area, have their PPM's docked at home, etc.

Apples and oranges (or sheetrock, if you prefer) is the whole point!

WHTZ, in 25-54, has 22% more upper income listeners than CBS FM. As I said, your data was pulled out of the air.

A close look at 25-54 week by week shows no out of range market cume figure for the days surrounding the 4th of July. This whole vacation theory is bogus.
 
If you think the vacation theory is bogus, you obviously have never been to NYC in the summer. You don't need a tracking device strapped to some moron's hip to know that there are way fewer people in town. Especially around July 4.

Why don't you try this? Go to New York. Get in your car Friday afternoon on a three day weekend, and drive to the Hamptons.

Let me know how it goes.
 
scooty430 said:
If you think the vacation theory is bogus, you obviously have never been to NYC in the summer. You don't need a tracking device strapped to some moron's hip to know that there are way fewer people in town. Especially around July 4.

Why don't you try this? Go to New York. Get in your car Friday afternoon on a three day weekend, and drive to the Hamptons.

Let me know how it goes.

The Hamptons and all of LI is part of the New York Metro. There are 20 counties and boroughs in the MSA. The Hamptons, which I sure can't afford, is in one of them.

Looking at the in-tabs, there is no difference in meter carriers or cume. And the fact is that only active meters are projected into the universe, anyway.

Of course, the fact that getting out of the City is not exclusive to one station escapes you. WHTZ, as I explained, has more upper income listeners than CBS FM... although you and your cohorts believe differently... and incorrectly.
 
I don't put much (if any) faith in these meters:

- the type of person who would wear a meter (in need of money, into following rules, lured by silly contests, willing to endure annoying phone calls, maybe not too bright) is a subset of the general population. Not a representative sample.
- not enough meters out there. One single meter has way too much power in changing things.
- people don't wear the meters all day or remember to charge them, but they are still counted because you score more "points" if you listen more. They should only count people who have it on all day.
- too easy to "fake" it by listening to a station all day to boost ratings
- Arbitron coming under fire from many corners - as we've all read. One incident you could ignore, but so many? Where there's smoke, there's fire.

As for people leaving town, you're wrong. People leave town in New York. You said they didn't. You are wrong. They go to the Hamptons, they go to Florida, they go to Paris, they go to the Cape, they go to the Berkshires.

Now, where do you get your data that Z100 listeners are richer than CBSFM listeners? That seems really suspect. Last time you spouted data, someone called you on it and you had to admit you were wrong.
 
scooty430 said:
As for people leaving town, you're wrong. People leave town in New York. You said they didn't. You are wrong. They go to the Hamptons, they go to Florida, they go to Paris, they go to the Cape, they go to the Berkshires.

Not in sufficient numbers to affect the ratings. In fact, there are plenty of people taking trips all year long, day in and day out. If you check the lines and load capacity at JFK or EWR or LGA, you will see that the holidays are now only a few percent higher in travel than other weeks of the year.

The fact that there is constant travel means that no particular week or month is going to be affected much more than any other. In any case, non-active meters are simply excluded from the sample so there is pretty much no impact at all on ratings as the univers never changes except that one time a year total population is updated.

And as I said, the Hamptons are inside the NY radio market.

Now, where do you get your data that Z100 listeners are richer than CBSFM listeners?

I didn't say that. The fact you can not read and understand is at the core of the mistakes in reasoning and fact that you incessantly post.

I said that WHTZ has more upper income listeners than CBS FM. And it does. Tapscan, Arbitron (diary and PPM) and Scarborough show the stratification of audiences by income level. WHTZ ranks higher in $50 k and up listeners (the upper half, based on average family income) than CBS FM.

That seems really suspect. Last time you spouted data, someone called you on it and you had to admit you were wrong.

Wrong. I got addtional data for NY which allowed me to correct the July 4 timespan information, and I ammended my own statement. Again, you don't read too well.
 
scooty430 said:
I don't put much (if any) faith in these meters:

But all the industry has faith in the base system. Electronic measurement has been used in TV for two decades.

- the type of person who would wear a meter (in need of money, into following rules, lured by silly contests, willing to endure annoying phone calls, maybe not too bright) is a subset of the general population. Not a representative sample.

I recommend you read the Coleman research study on persons who have carried the meter. The folks are pretty average, and enjoy participating... not for the money, but for the fact that they count.


- not enough meters out there. One single meter has way too much power in changing things.

You have a degree in statistics and polling? There are plenty of meters, and the industry issue is in the proportionality of the distribution in age, sex, geographical, ethnic, etc., cells. In any case, the radio industry can not afford larger panels.

- people don't wear the meters all day or remember to charge them,

On days they don't, they are not counted. And they are reminded to carry the next day. According to Arbitron and the Coleman study, after about the first month compliance is quite good. If there is ongoing lack of compliance, the household is replaced. That's how panels work.

but they are still counted because you score more "points" if you listen more.

You don't get more points for listening more.

And if you don't carry, you are not counted on the day(s) you don't. You are not in-tab.

They should only count people who have it on all day.

Usage is determined by the motion detector, not listening. And there are minimum daily carriage times to be in tab.

- too easy to "fake" it by listening to a station all day to boost ratings

There is no incentive to do that. You count whether you listen or not.

- Arbitron coming under fire from many corners - as we've all read. One incident you could ignore, but so many? Where there's smoke, there's fire.

The issue, as reported in all the industry trades, is meeting demographic quotas and a variety of related issues. The technology is not in question. The ability of a sample of the population to show quite accurately the behaviour of the universe, etc., are issues those in advertising and marketing laid to rest 70 or 80 years ago or more.
 
DavidEduardo said:
although you and your cohorts believe differently... and incorrectly.

Are YOU really sure about that..100% sure..no doubts..no second-thoughts whatsoever...100% certain and perfect??


Once again..for the xxx time, take it from a LISTENERS Perspective. If the A to Z is Sooooooo Bad, as you say, why didn't the ratings tank?? Of course you'll never answer that because of your position and who you are.

People didn't get driven away, as you otherwise said.....

14,000+ posts won't convince us either.
 
oldies76 said:
DavidEduardo said:
although you and your cohorts believe differently... and incorrectly.

Are YOU really sure about that..100% sure..no doubts..no second-thoughts whatsoever...100% certain and perfect??

In this case, I have the data and 45 years of programming and management experience. All your excuses are either bizarre or wrong.

Once again..for the xxx time, take it from a LISTENERS Perspective.

We take everything from the listner perspective. Unless stations have listeners, there is no revenue. So we live for our listeners.

If the A to Z is Sooooooo Bad, as you say, why didn't the ratings tank?? Of course you'll never answer that because of your position and who you are.

The ratings did not go up where it matters, and my feeling is that doing it again so soon builds the "strange songs" image and definitely not a variety image. Variety is composed of playing songs each listener loves, not playing lots of secondary and unfamiliar songs. Repeating the feature can only be, in the long run, detrimental to the image they need, which is staying away from the 60s and putting up a stone wall against the 50s.
 
DavidEduardo said:
Variety is composed of playing songs each listener loves, not playing lots of secondary and unfamiliar songs. Repeating the feature can only be, in the long run, detrimental to the image they need, which is staying away from the 60s and putting up a stone wall against the 50s.

How do you know what songs people love or don't love? This is the point that you have a hard time understanding. Besides the tested songs, how do you know what other cuts, OTHER listeners like? While the A to Z is aired, surely others will hear these "secondary" songs and like them..because they grew up with them. You cannot assume that these "secondary" songs or stiffs as you call them, aren't liked by others..that is wrong for you to say.

They may have not tested to be on the "regular rotation", but they are still enjoyed otherwise by most, because they are rarely aired songs during regular rotation and "new" again to them. It is this reasoning, why the A to Z is a successful specialty and a big reason why the CBS-FM ratings did not bomb.

People like changes..not stagnation.

I really wish you would understand that...That's a listeners perspective!

By the way..it's not detrimental to their image..why would they take such risk if it was. Major market stations know what's right to do and what not to do. That's why the PD's make the bucks to do what is right, not do what is wrong!
 
DavidEduardo said:
All your excuses are either bizarre or wrong.

Bizarre?? Just not being able to understand basic radio programming with a goal of pleasing your listeners, is bizarre enough. ::) This isn't rocket science.
 
oldies76 said:
Variety is composed of playing songs each listener loves, not playing lots of secondary and unfamiliar songs. Repeating the feature can only be, in the long run, detrimental to the image they need, which is staying away from the 60s and putting up a stone wall against the 50s.

How do you know what songs people love or don't love?

Stations test far more songs than the ones they play. Many times more, in fact. Every time we test, we test lots of "what if" songs. Songs that may have been burnt out in the recent past, or songs that might have changed positively their appeal over time. In one case, I know of a station with a list of about 900 songs that has tested over 4,000 songs over the last few years.

So stations that diligently track all the music that might fit on the station, over time, test everything that has even the most remote chance of being of use.

This is the point that you have a hard time understanding. Besides the tested songs, how do you know what other cuts, OTHER listeners like?

When songs are tested, a cross section of the audience and the potential audience is recruited, and that group judges each song... sometimes as many as 1500 songs in one test! It's very clear which songs work and which don't.

While the A to Z is aired, surely others will hear these "secondary" songs and like them..because they grew up with them. You cannot assume that these "secondary" songs or stiffs as you call them, aren't liked by others..that is wrong for you to say.

If we have already tested them, we already know.

And a song that is so negative as to endanger half the audience when it is played is a stiff.

They may have not tested to be on the "regular rotation", but they are still enjoyed otherwise by most, because they are rarely aired songs during regular rotation and "new" again to them.

If the songs don't belong in regular rotation, that means they are highly negative. Stations put in regular rotation every song they can find that is neutral to poistive with little negative scoring. The ones that have high negatives don't get played because the listners say, " when I hear that song, I turn down the volume or tune out."

People like changes..not stagnation.

Actually, people like consitency and a station that fulfils expectations every time they tune in. They change stations when they don't find what they came for. But of course I have talked with directly or indirectly hundreds of thousands of listeners, and you have not.

For example, when you ask people how often they want to hear their favorite songs, the answer in about 95% of the times is "every hour." And the stations that play the fewest songs tend to be the ones with the highest perception of variety.

I really wish you would understand that...That's a listeners perspective!

No, it is your perception of what listeners want, made without talking to lots of listeners.

By the way..it's not detrimental to their image..why would they take such risk if it was. Major market stations know what's right to do and what not to do. That's why the PD's make the bucks to do what is right, not do what is wrong!

Any PD who has not made a mistake is lying. And most of us have been fired at least once as we learned our craft... the most often cause is thinking listeners want more songs and /or more new music.
 
DavidEduardo said:
oldies76 said:
For example, when you ask people how often they want to hear their favorite songs, the answer in about 95% of the times is "every hour." And the stations that play the fewest songs tend to be the ones with the highest perception of variety.
Now, THAT's a bizarre statement!
 
DavidEduardo said:
For example, when you ask people how often they want to hear their favorite songs, the answer in about 95% of the times is "every hour." And the stations that play the fewest songs tend to be the ones with the highest perception of variety.

Every hour? It's extreme repetition and boredom and no classic hits stations do that anyways. This isn't CHR / Top 40.

No one would want to hear their favorite songs 12 times a day, everyday and you wouldn't either.

Variety are specialties and other programming (like A to Z).
Variety is a mix of what a station has to offer, not just one thing or one presentation.

"Will it Go Round in Circles" da da......... ::)
 
oldies76 said:
DavidEduardo said:
For example, when you ask people how often they want to hear their favorite songs, the answer in about 95% of the times is "every hour." And the stations that play the fewest songs tend to be the ones with the highest perception of variety.

Every hour? It's extreme repetition and boredom and no classic hits stations do that anyways. This isn't CHR / Top 40.

No one would want to hear their favorite songs 12 times a day, everyday and you wouldn't either.

Variety are specialties and other programming (like A to Z).
Variety is a mix of what a station has to offer, not just one thing or one presentation.

"Will it Go Around in Circles" da da......... ::)

Exactly.
 
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