CKLW - Detroit's Worst Top 40 Station

[SarasotaJim]

Keener wasn't as bad as some of these other personality stations, but there was a definite shift in its focus even as early as 1966. The Drake influence was nationwide, and what became standard PD othodoxy by 1968 was Drake-ish.

I was sitting in Fort Wayne, Indiana one afternoon talking on the phone with Mike Joseph. He was the consultant who had previously put stations like WKBW and WABC together and had most recently designed the new format for WLYV in Fort Wayne. He told me he had been called to Detroit to clean up Keener's act a bit because they were beginning to get hammered by CKLW.

He told me it was going to be a fight because Keener had gotten sloppy, not paying attention to details and they were running far too many commercial minutes. He wasn't particularly concerned, he said, because CKLW hadn't acquired the big ratings yet but, when they did, CK's spot load would get heavy, too.

Poor Mike. He apparently didn't know that, at that time, CKLW had a strict 8-minutes-per-hour limit on commercials. And there sat Mike, trying to tell Keener management and sales they could no longer get away with 18 minutes an hour. We all know how that battle ended, don't we?

 

[Fenway1912]

I will never forget a newscast starting with - 120 more toes on ice at the Wayne County Morgue this morning

 

[SarasotaJim]

I will never forget a newscast starting with - 120 more toes on ice at the Wayne County Morgue this morning

I think it was more like "Sixteen new feet peeking out from under those rubber blankets at the Wayne County morgue this morning." But the concept is the same.

The 20/20 Newsroom was filled with people who had incredible writing skills. Excellent people. The proof lies in the fact that Byron MacGregor, Joe Donovan and Grant Hudson all ended up at WWJ for decades.

 

[Bob1370]

It's interesting to read this from the perspective of someone who could hear both CKLW and the other influential stations of the eastern and midwestern parts of North America. CKLW began to evolve in the period from 1963 to 1966 even before Bill Drake arrived, becoming a station that was based on a combination of tight formatics, tight playlists and a style of personality that was predicated on jocks who found ways to say a lot (and be witty) with a minimum of words. Although ABC O&O WXYZ was a direct competitor and something of an influence, CKLW most resembled the next generation of ABC's top 40 fleet--specifically WLS in Chicago and especially WABC in New York. Those two flagship ABC O&Os started their rise to the top of their respective markets in late 1960 and early 1961. Listen to an old aircheck of WABC's longtime afternoon star Dan Ingram during the 1961-81 era and you'll hear exactly what i'm talking about. Ingram and his PD Rick Sklar were doing tight, high energy radio--what we sometimes think of as Drake style--long before Drake, although a lot of fast humor was also an integral part of the mix. The closest thing to them among Drake stations was not CKLW, but KHJ in LA in the days of Robert W. Morgan and Don Steele.

 

[ChrisInMI]

Keener wasn't as bad as some of these other personality stations, but there was a definite shift in its focus even as early as 1966. The Drake influence was nationwide, and what became standard PD othodoxy by 1968 was Drake-ish.

I was sitting in Fort Wayne, Indiana one afternoon talking on the phone with Mike Joseph. He was the consultant who had previously put stations like WKBW and WABC together and had most recently designed the new format for WLYV in Fort Wayne. He told me he had been called to Detroit to clean up Keener's act a bit because they were beginning to get hammered by CKLW.

He told me it was going to be a fight because Keener had gotten sloppy, not paying attention to details and they were running far too many commercial minutes. He wasn't particularly concerned, he said, because CKLW hadn't acquired the big ratings yet but, when they did, CK's spot load would get heavy, too.

Poor Mike. He apparently didn't know that, at that time, CKLW had a strict 8-minutes-per-hour limit on commercials. And there sat Mike, trying to tell Keener management and sales they could no longer get away with 18 minutes an hour. We all know how that battle ended, don't we?

Ah... the "battle of wills" between Mike Joseph and Dick Purtan (who ignored Joseph's directives and continued to do his show the way he'd always done it) is legendary stuff.

15 years later, Joseph would be back in the Motor City to put his Hot Hits format on WHYT. That station didn't begin to have a real impact until after he left and they became a more common CHR station. Keener had never followed Joseph's recommendations to the letter and had been a winning station anyway. Did Joseph's philosophies just not work in Detroit? Interestingly, he was also the man who put together what was probably Michigan's first Top 40 station, WTAC in Flint, in 1956, and that station became legendary.

 

[radioguy39nj]

I discovered CKLW one night in January 1966. I'd never heard anything like it! Tight formatics, slick presentation and MORE MUSIC! I didn't know it at the time, but I was being introduced to the Drake Top 40 format. Those of us in the NY area who DXed at night had four top 40 choices, our own WMCA and WABC, WKBW Buffalo and the Big 8, CKLW, The Motor City! Never heard Keener 13, WXYZ or WJBK but I can see how CKLW put all of them out of top 40.

I loved the CKLW Big 8 sound and was delighted when New York got a Drake Top 40 (actually adult top 40) WOR-FM, in late 1967. WOR-FM called itself "The Big Town Sound". Different music mix, but still unmistakably Drake presentation and formatics. Wonderful memories of a bygone era!

 

[KBland]

Couple folks said Ted "Bear" is doing mornings for the Jones Radio Network. That may well be true, all I know for sure is he used to be with Jones before doing middays on the CBS oldies station in Detroit where he worked for maybe over a year, and I don't know about after that. So if he is at Jones (due respect, I'm just not sure), it's a return trip.

All hail those that spoke of CKLW 20-20 news, just ahead of much more music with Pat Holliday, with positive comments. 20-20 news, in and of itself
made The Big 8 an incredible experience to this listener. Confused the hell out of me with the 7:40 in Detroit, and 8:40 in Windsor, but I survived.

Signed,

DXer from Philly where we had 2 great top 40 stations in Frew influenced WIBG, and Famous 56, WFIL

P.S. I believe many readers would enjoy this internet station. Do yourself a favor, and give it a listen

http://hylit.com/

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

I have heard these stories recently about CKLW being a favorite in NYC and New Jersey at night back in the day. CKLW had a minor lobe toward there that was the equivalent of a Class I Clear Channel, even though CKLW has never been a true Clear Channel station, just a Class II. As such, it got a lot of interference from stations like PJB. Did you have much trouble with WABC being close on 770 and interference also on 800?

The thing that eventually did CKLW in was CanCon-too much obscure Canadian stuff required to be played-not anything to do with the format otherwise. WKNR and WJBK had nulls in every direction except north and that is why you never heard them. Don't know how close you were to WOV/WADO on 1280, but that may be why you didn't hear WXYZ more. At that time, the WXYZ pattern was such that you might have heard them near NYC/NJ, though it was just 5000 watts then. I used to hear 5000 watt WADO and WWRL sneak into Michigan every once and a while, in addition to WABC, and later Top 40 WNNNNNNNNBC!

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

In response to some other comments.

WXYZ actually had a pretty decent signal for being at the edge of the top end of the dial. Being nondirectional day and with only one shallow null to the west at night, and having tall towers, it was pretty good to Flint and Toledo, and probably Cleveland if you could null out WIXY 1260. It wasn't good in Ann Arbor at night, but neither was CKLW-much of CKLW's pattern to the NW, W, and S at night was no more than the equivalent of 5000 watts to protect XEROK in Mexico and other Canadian stations.

I don't remember John Landecker being on student run stations in Ann Arbor or East Lansing, or on WCFL. Despite being the son of a prominent University of Michigan Professor, John did not go to U of M. He went to MSU. He worked at WOIA Ann Arbor as a newscaster with Art Vuolo as DJ. In 1966 he worked at WTRX Flint as "Jones Boy" Dow Jones, and at WILS Lansing in 1967-1968, as well as WERX Wyoming, MI. After that he went to WIBG and then WLS in 1972.

 

[SarasotaJim]

I have heard these stories recently about CKLW being a favorite in NYC and New Jersey at night back in the day.

Where I grew up (Franklin County, PA), CKLW was big even before the Drake format. We had a local daytimer on 800 and when WCHA went down with the sun, CKLW was right there to take its place. It was one of the Big 3 in the area at night: WABC, WKBW and CKLW. Others lower on the list included WLAC, WLS and WOWO.

CKLW has never been a true Clear Channel station, just a Class II.  As such, it got a lot of interference from stations like PJB.

PJB was never a problem until the mid-70s. Something happened down there and they lost control of their pattern. There were nuights when CKLW was pushed the whole way back to Toledo. CKLW complained to the International Telecommunications Union (a worthless organization) but they couldn't (or wouldn't) do anything until PJB interfered over a minimum of 50% CKLW's service area more than 50% of the time.

PJB was operated by a religious organization and used a lot of volunteer help at the time. After the nonsense with the ITU, CKLW had discussed the situation with PJB and was going to send its engineering staff from Ontario down to Bonaire to correct the problem, plus pay for any equipment that might be needed to resolve the issue. If you have ever vacationed on any of the Dutch islands in that chain, you know how jaw-droppingly expensive it would be for hotels, meals and transportation for the crew on a quest with no known upfront time frame.

All CKLW wanted out of the deal was to be able to write off the costs as a religious donation. Taxes are rather high in Canada and this would have allowed the station to reduce the cash hemorrhage from getting PJB back on track. Revenue Canada, as it was known then, turned thumbs down and CKLW's ownership couldn't be convinced it was worth the enormous financial outlay to continue.

 

[Savage]

I was a jock at CKLW at the onset of the PJB problem. I was the full-time "part-timer" which was usually the entry-level position at the station, after which you graduated to a specific shift. In the meantime you did every shift they asked you to. One night I was notified by memo that The Big 8 would be off the air, but they still needed me on hand just in case. Ed Buterbaugh and his engineering team, including consultants, had fanned out around the market and in Northern Ohio to conduct field measurements on PJB for the purpose of filing an international complaint. I just hung out with the rest of the staff, goofing off and taking naps. It was weird walking around the studios, with PJB thundering out of the house monitors. With CKLW off the air, Bonaire came in like a local. The phones were going berserk.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

PJB now has a 5 tower array in the shape of a plus sign and 100 kW, even though as I recall they still show up as 500 kW on international treaty databases. They phase three or more towers at a time to steer the maximum in different directions for different programs and target areas like is done with international shortwave stations. That almost sounds like an idea that Ed Buterbaugh would have come up with at those consulting sessions. The late great Ed Buterbaugh also worked at WABC and WJR over the years. I can't remember exactly when he passed away, but I'm sure that he would have recommended that WJR and WABC turn off their IBOC, which they did, after demonstrating the disastrous interference it created. This was noted by some board posters when it just affected critical hours and disappeared at WABC sunset about 30 min before WJR sunset.

 

[HHH]

You know, I have mixed feelings about the Drake stations.

On one hand, their production was terrific, the Johnny Mann jingle package superb, and the presentation very pro.

On the other hand, their playlists were incredibly short and they were often the last stations to add new titles. Although they tightened up the jocks, I missed the freewheeling unpredictable nature of pre-Drake rock deejays. However, to be fair, many of these pre-Drake guys and their stations did get sloppy, the jocks did sometimes get gabby and full of themselves, and the spot loads often did get out of control.

 

[SarasotaJim]

That almost sounds like an idea that Ed Buterbaugh would have come up with at those consulting sessions.

I see you knew Ed well. He was arguably the best in his field. Period. And a serious Gyro Gearloose!

The late great Ed Buterbaugh also worked at WABC and WJR over the years. I can't remember exactly when he passed away.....

September 1, 2008. The world lost a technical wonderman.

 

[radioguy39nj]

I have heard these stories recently about CKLW being a favorite in NYC and New Jersey at night back in the day. CKLW had a minor lobe toward there that was the equivalent of a Class I Clear Channel, even though CKLW has never been a true Clear Channel station, just a Class II. As such, it got a lot of interference from stations like PJB. Did you have much trouble with WABC being close on 770 and interference also on 800?

CKLW was loud and clear on Long Island at night as if it were coming out of NYC! WABC on 770 never interfered with The Big 8.

 

[searadiofreak]

I've kind of forgotten what this thread was all about.

CKLW was a great radio station serving Detroit/Windsor in the 60's/70's. Why is this thread still even alive?

(Farmer Jack's savings time is 7:04 pm Mountain, if anyone cares.)

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

CKLW was loud and clear on Long Island at night as if it were coming out of NYC! WABC on 770 never interfered with The Big 8.

Before NRSC, ANALOG AM signals would frequently interfere with signals plus or minus 20 or 30 kHz off the main carrier where the signal was strong. I was thinking about places like Paramus near the WABC tower mainly. I had a local station that was around 110 mV/m that wiped out stations 30 kHz away. They even used to sometimes rebroadcast FM signals and didn't turn on the pilot filter and it had a solid 19 kHz spur. I don't know what kind of processing they used, but there was always a whine at plus or minus 30 kHz.

 

[Schroedingers Cat]

That almost sounds like an idea that Ed Buterbaugh would have come up with at those consulting sessions.

I see you knew Ed well. He was arguably the best in his field. Period. And a serious Gyro Gearloose!

The late great Ed Buterbaugh also worked at WABC and WJR over the years. I can't remember exactly when he passed away.....

September 1, 2008. The world lost a technical wonderman.

Unfortunately, I was usually at two degrees of separation from most of the great radio innovators. Leonard Kahn I did speak to a few times, and I talked to O. G. Villard, Jr. once. I wish I had talked and met John Kraus, another one of the great pioneers of DXing, and to Ed Buterbaugh, but he was already very ill by the time that could have happened. But I have read many biographical articles about these people. They are truly amazing.

One of John Kraus' first antennas was designed to get 20 WATT WWJ in Ann Arbor shortly after they signed on.

 

[radioguy39nj]

CKLW was loud and clear on Long Island at night as if it were coming out of NYC! WABC on 770 never interfered with The Big 8.

Before NRSC, ANALOG AM signals would frequently interfere with signals plus or minus 20 or 30 kHz off the main carrier where the signal was strong. I was thinking about places like Paramus near the WABC tower mainly. I had a local station that was around 110 mV/m that wiped out stations 30 kHz away. They even used to sometimes rebroadcast FM signals and didn't turn on the pilot filter and it had a solid 19 kHz spur. I don't know what kind of processing they used, but there was always a whine at plus or minus 30 kHz.

I guess dXing is like real estate, location, location, location! On Long Island, I was a good distance east of the WABC tower, which likely explains why CKLW at 800 AM, just 30 kHz from WABC at 770 AM, came in so clearly. And no, I'm not an engineer!